Market Yourself Authentically with Rux Guidi

SEASON 7, EPISODE 7

Most of us who work for ourselves probably don’t love marketing but know that it’s a necessary task to attract more clients. Some take a more traditional approach—constantly sharing work and services on social media or socializing at conferences. But that might not work for everyone.

In this episode, Wudan talks with Ruxandra (Rux) Guidi. Rux is a narrative journalist working in print and audio based in Tucson, Arizona. Her work is published in the BBC, NPR, Marketplace, High Country News, The New York Times and The Atlantic, among others. You can follow her at https://www.fonografiacollective.com/ or on Instagram.

Rux and Wudan dig into how to reframe ‘marketing’ as something that is anti-hustle and anti-capitalistic, discuss the importance of community, and talk about drumming up work in a way that is unique to YOU.

Full Transcript Below:

Wudan Yan- Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Writers' Co-op. I'm your host and executive producer, Wudan Yan. A decade into my own freelance career and I'm realizing that when it comes to this concept of marketing, there's basically two types of freelancers. One type, let's just call this cohort type one (super creative, I know) is super good at putting themselves out there all the time. Maybe you've heard that phrase "always be marketing." That's them. They're tweeting. They're going to all conferences and seem to have boundless energy for putting themselves out there. Then there are people who get into freelancing because they love, love, love, the actual work. The reporting, the researching the writing, the photographing, strategy, and more. The mere thought of marketing like a type one sends them into a pit of panic, most likely. They might wonder if that's how you get more work and be known in your field, why does it feel so unnatural to me? If you're listening and see yourself as somebody who falls into type two, know that you're not alone. I will personally say I'm somewhere in between. I am a classic ambivert, which means I derive just as much energy from being around others as I do by being alone. And I say that because it's important context on how I can turn parts of myself on and off as needed, even professionally. So early in my career, I went to all these conferences. I was constantly pitching stories and getting my byline out there so that others would want to hire me. In a way, I felt like I had to be because I was invested in establishing myself at the time. Now I do that outreach as needed, in a way that's quieter and a little more behind-the-scenes. I'm invested in doing work that I believe in, the creative and journalistic work, in addition to putting on this podcast, which I also believe will help the freelancers who listen to it. For this episode, I really wanted to dig into how to reframe this concept of marketing, which often has a capitalistic meaning. And I specifically wanted to reframe it into something that is anti-hustle, anti-capitalistic, which means they wanted to find a freelancer who fit into that second cohort to be my co-host. That Freelancer is for Ruxandra, or Rux Guidi. Rux is a narrative journalists working in print and audio based in Tucson, Arizona. You have probably read or heard her work in the BBC, NPR, Marketplace, High Country News, and so much more. She also supports other projects as an editor and producer. This episode, we are going to talk about Rux's own approach to marketing—although she doesn't even call it that—and to drum up work for yourself when you have many different services going on, and how to do all of that in a way that works uniquely for you. And I will even talk about a random experiment I took on in June to try and get more work. Before we dive into my conversation with Rux, I wanted to talk about how important it is, at this time and any time to be in community with others. Not just any community, but one that is psychologically safe and open, which allows you to ask questions free of judgment. If you love the ethos of the Writers' Co-op and you're self-employed, you'd probably want to be a part of our community too. We're organized on Slack. And when you join as an All-Access Patreon for just $9 a month, you will be able to get in on that. Alright here's Rux. We're going back to the main program. Hi, Rux, welcome to the Writers' Co-op. It's so great to have you here.

Ruxandra Guidi- Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Wudan- Absolutely. So to begin—this is our standard introductory question—tell us about your career journey and what you do as a freelancer.

Rux- Sure. So I started out as a journalist, around '98. I was living in New York City, and I decided I wanted to be writing. So I started freelancing for a couple of cultural magazines. And that's where I guess I was bit, where I decided, okay, I could do this, I want to do this. It's a really difficult way to make a living, but I love it. And on and off since then, I've been freelance writing. I discovered radio about two or three years after that. And then I started equally working in radio or audio and freelance writing. So it's been it's been about 20+ years of doing this now.

Wudan- Yeah, that's amazing to have stuck with it for so long.

Rux-I know. I mean, it's been—there's been times when I've wondered: Do I—should I be doing something else? And no doubt that's kind of always brought me back. But yeah, it hasn't been perfect along the way.

Wudan- Definitely. So today, we're talking about marketing in a way that's authentic and anti-capitalist. And I was really excited when you emailed me, Rux, in response to my callout and just us exchanging a little more information about what I was looking for, and how you think about your personality, and also how you think about marketing. I almost wonder, like, how would you describe your personality? When it comes to work and finding new work? Is it connecting with people over social media? Or in a professional setting? Are you like, really active on social media? I guess, like, yes, if there were a personality quiz, what—where would you be?

Rux-I would definitely be on the introvert side, whatever that's called. I mean, I'm, I'm pretty shy. And to be honest with you, I I always feel like journalism and nonfiction storytelling is an awkward fit for me. It's always been. But I think it's also what's made it attractive, because it's a challenge. You know, I work best one on one, like, I really need to be able to connect with the people that I work with, whether they're my colleagues or, you know, interns, or people I'm mentoring or supervisors, I want to have a connection, a personal intellectual—ideally intellectual connection with them one on one. So I don't really do social media much. I mean, I do connect with people that way. But it's not really how work comes my way. It's more by meeting folks and realizing that we have something in common, that we have the same sensibilities, and then just almost like keeping in touch, hoping that a gig will come up, that something will bring us back together.

Wudan- So I almost want you to reflect one step back, and tell me how you think marketing is traditionally viewed as a freelancer? And do you also think that this, like, traditional way of marketing is easier for certain types of people?

Rux-For sure, I mean, marketing, I even really dislike the word. But you know, if I'm being realistic, what we are doing as freelancers is selling our skills, selling our work, giving up our free time for pay, and you need to be smart about it in order to do it. You know, I, it took me a while to figure this out, to kind of be able to disconnect my idealism about my work a little bit, or enough to be able to sell what I've got to offer well enough. And I think the best way to do it, in my experience, at least, is to like be really genuine and positive and earnest about what it is that you do. I feel very strongly about the kind of work I want to be doing out in the world. I don't want to be selling ads for people. I don't want to be doing branded content. I don't want to be writing about shit that I don't care about. I'm very selfish and focused in that way. And so once I decide this is my passion right now, or this is the thing that I'm after, how can I start connecting to the people that will commission me to do this? How will I identify the editors or the publications that value my writing for what it is? Like, I recognize that I'm not a good fit for every one, nor should I be, nor can you be. So I think, like, being realistic, but also recognizing that you have to be on it almost at all times. Like you have to be representing your work and your skills on a regular basis, not just when you think, 'oh, I need to drum up work,' which is what I used to do. So it's taken a while to get there. But my sense is, like, the more aware you are of what you've got to offer and how you can't like ever really sit back and just assume that work will keep coming your way, that's when you get better at this thing called marketing, right?

Wudan- Mhm. Yeah, I mean, for better or worse, I think for simplicity, we will use marketing and drumming up work interchangeably through the course of this episode. But I'm really hearing you say that, like that traditional view of marketing does not necessarily jive with how you conduct yourself as a creative and a business.

Rux-Yeah, it doesn't because I, at the end of the day, I equal parts want to be doing what I love, and I want to make a living from it. So you have to kind of adjust your standards, but you have to be really sure of what it is that you're willing to do and not willing to do. So let me give you an example. Like, I have a good friend who's a photographer, and starting out, he really just wanted to be doing documentary photography. But a lot of other photographers around him were like shooting weddings, and being miserable at it, right? And he very stubbornly was like, 'you know what, I just need to like, generate the documentary work in order to be happy, in order to stay here in the long run, in order to like show people this is what I can do if I keep shooting, you know, weddings, I'm never going to have something to show for it. It's just all all these dreams, all these plans are going to remain in the abstract and I'm never going to get there.' And that really resonated with me when I was starting out. It took a while to get there, but being able to kind of adjust your expectations and also, you know, knowing that you have to come compromise, but knowing what you can compromise and for how long, you know, like, coming up with deadlines and coming up with like specific, almost like guidelines for how you want to get there goes a really, really long way. But I think it's all too easy to kind of, to think of marketing your work and getting paid top dollar if you don't have a real, passionate, idealistic connection with your work. And pretty soon you can end up in a place where you're like, wake up one day, and you're like, 'I'm doing work that I don't really believe in. And I'm not happy. And what am I doing?' You know, like, so I've never wanted—I've seen that with friends. I've seen that with mentors, and I've always been careful not to let myself—to not abandon the reasons why I'm writing to begin with, the reasons why I'm a freelancer to begin with.

Wudan- Definitely. Knowing your purpose and where you stand in the great landscape of work and all the other ways there are to be a creative nonfiction producer, right, I think is also a superpower.

Rux-Yeah, and there's a lot more, that's also part of your superpower, right? Like there's, there's the fact that you want to tell stories in documentary form, let's say, or there's the fact that you, like, have a unique ability to kind of do culturally sensitive storytelling. Or that you work really well with others. Or that you speak other languages, like, everything else about your life, about your life experience should feed into this. Anyone who thinks you are valuable, anyone who wants you for you is going to see those things. And I think part of the trick of making freelancing work in the long run is like knowing how to identify those other people too. And how to like deliver to them as well, right? So, so being able to recognize those superpowers in you, but also seeing how they're a good fit with others.

Wudan- Yeah, say more about your current approach to drumming up work. I'm hearing a lot of you talking about how you interact with other people in your community, and what other ways does your approach look like? And how do those approaches authentically reflect you?

Rux-Yeah, I mean, I'm constantly putting out there that I am willing and eager to collaborate with some folks. So to me, it's definitely more important to find colleagues, to find collaborators who are thoughtful, who are creative, who are, you know, hard working, but also like, have lives of their own. And when I find them, I hold on to them for dear life. And so a lot of these people become my friends, right? A lot of these people are folks who have helped connect with others, or they've helped me. So having this community is very, very important. And I do regularly keep in touch with these people, not as a networking like, 'hey, I want to pick your brain,' which by the way, is a phrase I very much dislike.

Wudan- Yeah, we are anti that phrase. Yeah, we do not use that phrase here.

Rux-No one likes to get their brain picked and it's like—it's crass, you know? Like, what I want is to like keep in touch. And so so I try to do the same thing. And I keep in touch with people, and I genuinely want to know what they're up to. And oftentimes, I would say about half, if not more of the opportunities I get come this way. We keep in touch, whenever you know, I'm kind of that person that whenever someone's looking for a producer or a contributor to something, or collaborator, people often find me. I've just kind of been that person, like kind of a matchmaker in that way. And so yes, I end up finding out about a lot of gigs that way. So being that person that like, wants to help other people land something that's a good fit for them, often, you know, benefits me. It's a selfish thing, you could say, but it also really keeps me in the know. And it keeps me connected with all these people. Like once I made the commitment to freelance, which very much started kind of at the beginning of my career. On and off, I've been freelancing for, you know, now more than two decades. Once I kind of made that commitment, like, oh, I can do this, and it's stimulating to me. I'm learning a lot. I'm growing. I dig it. I like that hustle that—or maybe not the hustle, but that search. And once I decided I wanted to do that, I realized that I really needed to kind of like, be connected with people. And so it's something that I honestly, I just can't quit now. You know, it's an important part of my relationships. But then there's also like, really random ways that work can come my way. And I think this is true for a lot of people. Like, I was actually laughing just the other day because my best friend from college, Jessica, her wife, I saw her at a funeral recently and she's like, 'oh, you work as an editor, right? So I have this gig that I kind of need someone to help me with. Do you think you can do it?' You know, I'm thinking 'wow, what are the chances that my friend's wife is going to ask me to help her at a funeral?' But, you know, it turned out to be like a really interesting gig. And it looks like I may do it. So you never know, I think also, I would add one more thing, that kind of remaining humble in your search is also a really good idea. So when I first heard about this gig at the funeral, part of me is like, mmm maybe I don't want to take this on. You know, like, it may not be all that interesting. It looks like it's a lot of cleanup work. It might take a while. But you honestly just never, ever, ever really know how having had a good working experience with one person will extend to the next one. And also, you just never really know how work is going to come your way. You know, like, even though I've been at this for 20 years, if someone asked me tomorrow to do a tape sync, right, to record the end of an audio interview for them, and I'm free, I'll totally do it. I try to put myself in the situation of like, I want to be learning. I want to be out there in the mix. If I can fit it in, I will do it. Because you never know when I'm going to need that help. And when am I going to be able to get somebody to like, hook me up? The reason why freelancing is appealing to me is because I don't have to deal with the bullshit of offices and, you know, office politics and infighting. And so I want to create the kind of community in my circle of collaborators of people doing this kind of work, who really help each other out, who are supportive. And so that's that's paid off for me so far.

Wudan- Yeah, I can hear from this, what you're saying all along, is that you're very inherently giving, and that feels central to cultivating and creating community.

Rux-I think so. I think so. I mean, that's also what's drawn me into teaching, honestly. And I get the same feeling out of teaching. And it pays back, you know, like, it's not all about—I mean, it is giving. You maybe you have to take the initiative, but people appreciate and value you and they hook you up. I can't imagine freelancing without that, because I think it would be even more challenging than it already is, you know?

Wudan- So you said about half of the work that you get comes from being in community with other people. What about the remaining half? How do you get most of your inbound work that way?

Rux-I would say maybe even more than half. I mean, some people do hear about me through the grapevine, like, 'oh, you know, you've edited this podcast, would you be available?' The last two gigs I've gotten have been that way. But I would argue it's still based on the fact that someone out there—I don't know whom—has recommended me for something. So I think it always does go back to this community, to this group of people whom I work with well, and who, you know, maybe I've supported them in the past, and now they're supporting me. I do occasionally look at ads or, you know, there's like all kinds of like listings of opportunities that might be appealing to me, say in podcasting, in the magazine world. But if I do respond to these sorts of ads, I do try to connect with someone on the inside, right? Like maybe a friend of a friend or a friend of mine, or an acquaintance and see if I can get some intel that way. I mean, I hate to sound jaded, but the media world has been in such a crisis.

Wudan- Yeah

Rux-For so long, right? And we've all had our share of jobs where we feel like we've been either underpaid or taken advantage of or burnt out. I just don't want any of it anymore. I want to commit to the work. And I believe it can be done without all that. And so I take it very, very seriously, when someone I trust tells 'mmm don't work for this place. They don't pay on time,' or don't—you know, 'this editor doesn't know what they want.' And so yeah, I would say that is the most important thing at the end of the day: who I know. But I would also say that strangely, I've gotten gigs also from people I've mentored for example, or from students. So it is true what they say. Like you just never ever, ever, ever know. You don't want to burn any bridges. You don't ever know where your next gig is gonna come from.

Wudan- Yeah. What experiments in coming up with work have you conducted over the years? And I'm curious, you know, you've talked about what's most effective, but what has surprised you and being not as effective?

Rux-Honestly, I think trying to drum up work from a place of desperation. I don't know if I would call this an experiment. I think most of us actually, that's when we think of trying to generate work right? When we desperately need it. That is the worst for me. I don't know how it works for other people. I'm someone who needs to stay passionate about what I do. As I said earlier, I need to like believe in this thing that I do. It's what drew me to journalism to begin with. And so, if that passion is gone, if I am doubting myself and my abilities, I cannot connect with people well, and I cannot sell myself well, right? And so I think when I was starting out, I would, you know, I tried networking in that way of like, 'hey, I hear you might be hiring. I hear you blah blah blah.' Or 'can I pick your brain,' you know?

Wudan- Oh no!

Rux-Yeah, I'm not picking the brain. That's never worked for me. So I would say that's one thing is to always kind of try to be a few steps ahead, assuming that you need to be your own best business person, that you have your back better than anyone else. And you know, you're running a business, maybe you don't exactly know what you're doing, you're figuring it out, but you still need to pay a lot of attention to that, that half of your work, which is like business and invoices and, and looking at your income so far, and taking care of health insurance, what have you. I'm pretty anal retentive. When I am not in a retentive and I let my guard down, and I'm like, 'I'll get to that tomorrow,' or 'oh, not a big deal. I suffer the consequences.' So I've discovered that I am that person that needs to like, write everything down, schedule everything. And then shit gets done. When I don't do that, you know, it's very, very easy for me to kind of like lose sight of what I've been working on and to lose my momentum, whether it's on like, you know, getting meeting my deadlines, or like generating new work. And then the other thing I would say is, you know, this is something that I've been doing more in the last, I would say, five to seven years. But I look at work like future work that is diverse in length, let's say. So I am taking on mmm two, three assignments at the same time. They're not all writing. They're not all, you know, moving at the same pace. I mix things up a lot, you know. I did translation work for a long time, I still do it, if it comes my way. I work as an editor for narrative podcasts. And I also edit or write for magazines. And the ideal mix for me is to have a bit of each of those things. Some of them that are due, you know, in the next month or two, and others that can extend into next year. That always kind of keeps me busy and also makes it so that I don't have any immediate deadlines week after week, month after month. Like, one of the hardest things as a freelancer right is 1. Generating work, but 2. Is to keep it all afloat and to meet the deadlines and to do a good job, right? I think we've all been there, where we get totally overwhelmed. And you hear about freelancers who are not able to take a vacation, to take a breather, who burn out on it too, who you know, who feel like they're not really growing. And I think oftentimes that's why. Because we focus so much on the drumming up work that we're not really planning accordingly, we're not really thinking about how long this will take. We don't have a good sense of like scheduling. There's just so much involved with freelancing and connection to that. But with running a business that it does take a little while to learn. But once you land on something, my feeling is that if you're cut out for it, if you love it, if you love that hustle, it's very fun.

Wudan- Yeah, there's so much I want to dig into into what you just said, especially about all your different services. But let's put a pin on it. And I wanted to just say something about desperation. Because when you said that, what that reflected in me was the thing, my instinct, to always plug on LinkedIn and plug on Twitter. Being like, 'hello, I have like unexpected availability for random things.' Because in that moment, I am like, wow, I am not working as much as I want to. And I have the capacity to do more. And like this project just got derailed for factors outside of my control. And I am a little desperate and acting on scarcity in that very moment. But at best, like I get two quick hit assignments. And that's it. Like, when you said that I was like, wow, that really doesn't lead to anything sustainable in this moment. Or like in the future, too. It's like a very right now, like put on the Band-Aid, take off the Band-Aid. Let's go.

Rux-Yeah, yeah. I mean and unfortunately, I think it can also signal to those commissioning editors that you're maybe not professional enough. I hope not. But that's what—that's how it could be read. And you're right, you might get assignments that are great, that are like quick turnarounds. But that may add to your stress level and maybe are not what you're looking for, if what you'd like is like, you know, a longform feature.

Wudan- Exactly.

Rux-Yeah, I mean, I definitely—I've been there and done that. Now I try to stop myself before those. But it's also good to meditate actually on the fact that social media so dictates our thinking and our moods, right? Like, the thing that I'm most jaded about when it comes to social media is all that like the self-promotion. I mean, we all use it for that. And it gets to the point where it's just like, 'oh gosh, another article. Oh, another fellowship.' Great, you know, like, I'm genuinely happy for all these people getting them. But like, it starts to mean nothing to myself or to others, right? And so like, I definitely have come to see a lot of this social media use as like just another distraction. I mean, I'm not saying anything, all that original other than, like, it's all too easy to kind of get sucked into that world, instead of like, say, think about how you want to reach out to someone else. Or maybe how you could like, do something that takes you away from your work and from that anxiety of generating work for even an hour. I mean, people say this all the time, right, like, go for a walk. Go for a swim. But it really does help. It really does help to remove yourself, even for a little bit. And so, you know, I know this is not necessarily related to what you're talking about. But for me, having like a steady practice of like swimming, or hiking, or whatever it is. I know, you're a hiker. You know, it's like the thing that like, allows me to remove myself briefly. And to kind of like, just regain that trust in myself. Like, as long as I am doing the work that I want to be doing, I keep doing and I keep doing a good job, trust that work will keep coming your way. Trust that those relationships pay off, that meeting deadlines pay off, that being connected, and like helping other folks out is going to come back to you in a positive way. It's kind of like a leap of faith, but you have to have it in freelancing, I feel.

Wudan- Yeah. Can I tell you about my current marketing experiment?

Rux-Yeah.

Wudan- The first five months of this year, I was just not making very much money. Because I was traveling. I was overseas for a project that's taken me seven years to get out the door. I went on vacation for two weeks in April. And that prevented me from taking on long-term projects. And contract of mine got unexpectedly cancelled, and not renewed, because media is strange right now and there are budget cuts. And so I was like, wow, I was really not good at keeping on top of telling people I was available for work. Because, frankly, my capacity was pretty limited in the past five months. But let me turn things around. Like, let me be really aggressive about my marketing. And market in one way, at least once a day. So we're recording this in mid-June. I've been doing it for like two and a half weeks now. And that involves newsletters. That involves social media—LinkedIn, and Twitter. And I will send cold emails to people at organizations that look cool, that I would do content for, telling newsletters or listservs that I am available for work. It comes out in so many different ways. And at the same time, I'm getting inbound clients who want to hire me. And as part of my experiment, I'm also asking every single inbound client how they found me. Guess what they said?

Rux-The newsletter?

Wudan- No

Rux-Oh

Wudan- People who I had no idea about recommended me because they read something journalistic that I wrote.

Rux-Wow. That's great!

Wudan- The whole like, leap of faith thing sounds so like, ‘woo,’ in a way. You live in Tucson, there are crystal people around.

Rux-Oh yeah.

Wudan- And so like, so much of my coaching business is helping freelancers come up with proof for themselves. And it was really cool to gather that proof for me, and be like, oh, like, you know, I start talking about marketing as like sending flags up. Like, I'm flagging to people in different ways that I do good work, or I'm available for work. And published work with your name, my name on it, like are flags too. Like they attract people of different sensibilities to also reach out and be like, 'hey, is Rux interested in collaborating?' Like, 'does Wudan want to work with us?' So I think like, we really should not discount the true, true value of doing good work. Because in a way, when something like that good is published, or whatever people conceive, think, is so good. That's there hopefully, forever, as long as the internet doesn't burn down. And that can serve as like a constant beacon, in a way.

Rux-Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you're talking about reputation, right? I think that's one of the things that can be hardest to kind of see, especially when you're starting out, because you don't have that reputation yet, right? You don't have the bylines. You don't have that many folks who have worked with you and in a professional setting. But building that, and really having like a good moral compass about what you stand for, and what you're willing to do and not willing to do is insanely important, insanely important, you know? In connecting you with the kind of people you want to be connected with. In getting you the gigs with certain publications. In kind of like being that person that people are going to recommend for a job whom you don't even know. So yeah, so it does sound woowoo, but there's a reason behind all that.

Wudan- Exactly.

Rux-I take that stuff very seriously too, when I collaborate with others, you know. Not that I'm like engaging in gossip, and I'm like, you know, not gauging people on my own. But if there's someone out there that I hear, for example, doesn't meet deadlines, or like, you know, is like, incredibly difficult. We were just talking about this with a colleague the other day, you know, in podcasting, you could end up with a host who, you know, a so-called talent—

Wudan- Oh no

Rux-—that is like, that is kind of a diva and, and it difficult. No one want to works with them, you know?

Wudan- I know, yeah.

Rux-And there's nothing reason for it. I don't want to be one of those people, you know. I've made a commitment to not want to be one of those people. So, so I also expect the same from others. And yeah, your reputation follows you everywhere. It is—it is who you know, and who you are.

Wudan- Yeah, and I think reputation ties in with community a lot. So I almost wonder, you know, for folks who may not be as advanced and further along in their freelance careers as us, for instance, what kind of advice do you have for earlier career folks to find their community and build around that?

Rux-I talk about this a lot with my students. You have already a community, you just maybe don't see it that way, when you're starting out. You have your former professors, or teachers at community college, or even your high school teachers, right? You have your classmates. Ideally, you're doing an internship, you're volunteering somewhere, you're kind of like still searching, still looking for that right fit. Every one of those people that you're coming across, who are getting to see your work and who are getting to see that you are like genuinely trying to be better, trying to grow. Those are the people that are going to write you that letter of recommendation. Those are the people who are going to think of you when a gig comes their way. It goes a really long way. And people pay attention, you know. I have easily ended up working with former students in a professional setting years after they've graduated, because we had a positive experience in the classroom. Because I could tell they like, definitely wanted to grow. And they were like real. I'm not saying that they were like kissing my butt. You know, like, that's not what I think teachers are looking for. I think teachers typically are like, earnest. And they want to see a student grow in the time that they spent in the classroom. So, you know, whether you're still in school, or you're out of school, I think learning to gravitate to people who are genuine, and then keeping in touch with them. And not just like contacting them when you do need that letter of recommendation. But just keeping in touch. You know, I should also say that, like, yes, I've been doing this for 20 plus years now. But I have mentors. I still have mentors that guide me very much. There are people—some of them are a little, just a little older than me. Some of them are in their 60s or 70s. The age doesn't matter. Like, I think we all need to always be learning, right? Especially in a field like storytelling, writing. You never quite reach, like, the apex, I feel. Like, you never quite get to a point and you wake up one day and you're like, 'I've done it all. I know everything. I'm who I always wanted to be.' At least that's not my experience. But I do think that you do get closer to some of the principles or some of the things that you value the most. But you have to remain open to learning and learning from others and being humbled. I have made a commitment, and I am attracted to people who think this way too, to never feel like yeah, like I know my shit, and that there's some work that's beneath me. Also financial need in the ups and downs of freelancing—as you said—work drying up or you know, quitting a job where you're just like, I can't take it anymore. I need to be back on my own. All that instability sometimes has really taught me that, like, there's some work that I can choose to do. And there's the work that I can do. And I need to be willing to gravitate between all of that, depending on need. I am not too good for anything. And I think that's a good quality to have, at least it's worked for me. It's like always, it's given me the confidence, actually, to feel like no matter what, I'll be able to hustle. No matter what, like, I'll be able to like, you know, cover myself. Yeah. And I think that's something that actually you don't really learn when you're in a full-time position for a long time.

Wudan- Nope.

Rux-Yeah, I feel really bad for folks that like—and now we're hearing about so many people losing their jobs, but where they've identified as someone with a position with a company, who owns their time, who owns their opinion, sometimes right? Down to like what you say on social media, and then suddenly from one day to the next, they're fired. What do you do? How do you like start thinking for yourself and like, start drumming up on your own? It can be really tricky.

Wudan- Yeah. Not naming any names, of course.

Rux-Yeah.

Wudan- Yeah, so one thing I want to ask you about, Rux, is that you do so many different types of work—a lot of different services. I've heard teaching. I've heard production. I've heard story editing. I've heard tape synchs. I've heard journalism. How does your approach to drumming up work differ for all these different services, if at all?

Rux-Well, it takes kind of understanding those industries. I guess teaching has been the most recent for me. But I, I'll tell you, I started teaching, because my freelance writing was drying up. And I was like, I need to make a living, and there's no assignments. And then once I figured out, okay, it's typically semester by semester, and I have to, like, prove myself in the classroom. Then once I kind of figure out how that world of academia works, then it's easier to kind of know who to reach out to and how to plan. I mean, the nice thing about teaching, for example, is yes, you're looking to the future. And you are, ideally if it's adjuncting and it pays decently, because a lot of adjunct jobs don't pay pretty well, but if they do, you can do this other work on the side, right? And it keeps you plugged into a community in the, in the university that could lead to other work as well. But for freelance writing, I'm doing less and less of it these days, to be honest. I miss it. I love it. But, you know, it works with a pitch. And it's if it's essays you want to be pitching, it's very different than if you want to be pitching a magazine piece. Some long-form pieces, you have to do so much research before you even write the pitch that it feels like you've researched the whole thing already for no pay.

Wudan- Yep.

Rux-Yeah, as you well know. So it takes like really not making any assumptions about the field or even the publication. And that's I think a common mistake for a lot of people starting out is they think, 'oh, I developed this pitch for this publication. It'll probably work for this other one,' without really thinking about what's their focus area? You know, have they published something similar in the past? What's their take, their angle? Can I show something in my previous work that signals that I can do this? And then for podcasts, narrative editing, it's a relatively new skill set. It's been very much word of mouth. In fact, I haven't gotten any podcast editing jobs from ads. It's all been someone heard about me doing some other work, and they've reached out to me. And you know, that's also, it's also volatile. In, you know, it's just in the last, last year, we've heard about so many—and even till this day, you know, we keep hearing about people losing their podcasting jobs. So for every day that I still have these gigs, I feel really fortunate, but there is a side of me that's like, you know, how much longer will I be able to keep doing podcast editing? I don't know. So I may want to kind of like still keep one foot in this other world.

Wudan- That makes a lot of sense. I mean, you're talking about teaching and how that came about when you were in a slow period with other freelancing. What are your tactics to drumming up work when you feel like you're in the famine cycle of the canonical freelance feast or famine, yeah, trap?

Rux-Yeah, I mean, I do start out by reaching out to the people I trust the most, and whom I've had the best working experiences with. I should say that even though I've been freelancing for that long, I've held a number of full-time jobs as well. The reasons why I've left them is because I wanted to grow faster than they were willing to offer me. Or because like, yes, I'd realized, like, I'm not an office person I need to be out and about. But that said, I also made sure to not burn any bridges with those folks. Even though, trust me, it was tempting at times, right? But I, I have to say like, it's, it's been really important to me to try not to do that. And even today, I get confirmation that that was good. Because I have come across many of these folks again, and again, in my freelancing work. The media world is a small world. I've also gotten great benefit from many of these full-time jobs. Contacts or they've hired me to do other work, they've referred me for other things. So I often do reach out to these people whom I think have my best interests in mind. And they can be my mentors. They can be former coworkers or current collaborators. And I think, I don't know if this is true, but for me, I feel like it's work to be very kind of transparent about things. You know, I think some of us sometimes, like, we are ashamed that we can't say we're super busy, right? Like, we're such a busy-making society. We're always like, 'I got this project.'

Wudan- Well that's capitalism.

Rux-Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, even when we're not, we like, we're deluded into thinking like, oh, we must look busy. You know, always traveling, always doing this thing. But I think it's like, I think it works in my benefit, at least, to be honest about when I need someone to help me out. And I've definitely have gotten some gigs, some of which haven't been great, but they've gotten me out of the hole. So, for example, I think it was a couple of years ago. Two or three years ago, I remember telling a friend, you know, like, well, I really, I really need like a pretty well-paying assignment, because like work has dried up, and she put me in touch with some folks that paid pretty well. But boy, was it like a ton of work and just a pain in the butt to deal with them. But I just, you know, I just decided, like, it's only going to come back and bite me in the ass if I like drop this, right? Like, I just, I just can't. Like this is—this is a product of a friend trying to help me out. And I think there's something to be said for like, kind of grinning and bearing it and sometimes, you know? Again, like take that tape synch job. Take that, like, short gig that someone's offering you, if it's out of an, you know, an effort to help you. And do that for others, too.

Wudan- Yeah.

Rux-That's usually what I do, yeah.

Wudan- I mean, what I'm hearing you say throughout this entire conversation is like, this is how you authentically 'market' yourself for the long term.

Rux-Yeah, yeah, I think so. And then you're creating that reputation all along the way.

Wudan- Exactly.

Rux-So some people are noticing. Some people you don't know, they're noticing.

Wudan- Exactly.

Rux-Yeah.

Wudan- I think to end, you know, so many people have different methods that work best for them in finding work. So for a while, I think people were obsessed with opportunities newsletters, which don't work for me, because they feel like hit it and quit it. So many people are like, oh LinkedIn, when Twitter collapsed, or is collapsing, I don't know.

Rux-It keeps collapsing.

Wudan- Yeah, it keeps collapsing in different ways. People are like, 'oh, LinkedIn is such a great place. I get so many jobs on LinkedIn.' I am active on LinkedIn. I cannot make the LinkedIn magic work. But that doesn't mean I'm not getting, you know, inbound clients and work. So when people ask me about marketing help, I'm like, try a lot of shit and like, see what sticks. But I guess a question for you is like, how would you advise people on coming up with a way of finding work that feels authentic to them?

Rux-I think you need to answer for yourself, why, why are you freelancing? Why do you want to write? Why do you want to produce? Whatever it is you want to do. This sounds silly. But I have made a point to ask myself this many times along the way in my career, and that is: Is someone forcing me to do this? Who am I trying to prove? And what am I trying to prove by doing this? If it's all, if it all goes back to me, and the fact that I love it, and I am going to be on this Earth for a short time, which I am. We're all going to die. And let me tell you, thinking about the fact that any of this will be over at any point is a good way to focus. And to just kind of like, think about the value of what you do have, right? It is gonna be a hustle. It does start out being slow. And it can get better, if you do some things, right. I think as long as you like recognize that there has been growth, that you are getting better, that you can cover for some things and increasingly, you can cover for more of it—expenses, I'm talking ,costs. As long as you like, you know, adopt that kind of like business mind, in the sense that like you have to like look out for your needs, then it will get better. And you have to think about the importance of doing that work as a freelancer versus in a job setting. I understand that there's some people that really find freelancing too stressful, or that think freelancing is the thing you do between jobs. That's fine. That's them. But I think that if you're gonna commit to freelancing, there needs to be like a reason there for you to do it. And there needs to be something in there about that approach, about that freedom, that independence, that ability to choose your collaborators, that is exciting to you. And if that's the case, then you can figure it out. There's so many tools at our disposal now, right? Your podcast, newsletters, I mean, you just mentioned them over the course of our conversation, that didn't exist there when I was starting out. I mean, shit, the internet had just come out when I started out. Not quite, but almost. And so it's gotten way easier, in that respect. In other ways, the media landscape, of course, the journalism landscape, has gotten more and more complicated. But it's opening up, in more and more of us to work that is kind of like journalism-adjacent, you know, like storytelling or in podcasts, that also feeds that love of journalism, of storytelling, and that oftentimes pays well. And I think there is this thriving, changing, media landscape where newspapers are going to keep disappearing, but other great opportunities are going to arise. I mean, we're in a constantly changing landscape. And I think that it's stimulating. It's exciting. It's also scary, but that those are some of the things that you choose to commit to when you commit to, to freelancing. And as long as you feel like you have this more long-term vision, this ability that you can find a place within that landscape, that you can contribute something different and unique, and it gives you joy, I think you will figure out the best ways to market yourself. But I think it needs to start with genuinely wanting to do it. And you know, reading the stuff, connecting with the people doing this work. You know, like you have to be in the know, so that you can demystify the whole process. Otherwise, yes, freelancing feels pretty masochistic.

Wudan- Yeah, yeah. That intentionality breeds authenticity.

Rux-Yes

Wudan- and then that kind of leaks into other things, too.

Rux-That's right.

Wudan- Well, thank you so much, Rux. This has been great.

Rux-Thank you!

Wudan- Yay!

Rux-Thanks so much, Wudan. It was great to talk to you.

Wudan- You too!

Rux-Take care.

Wudan- Thank you so much to Ruxandra for coming on the show. You can follow her work at phonografiacollective.com, and on Instagram at Ruxguidi. I'll link to both in the show notes. And I will talk to you all next time. See you soon. Thanks so much for listening to the Writers' Co-op. If you've enjoyed our episodes, please rate, review and subscribe on listening platform of your choice. These reviews help more listeners discover us. You can join us on Patreon at an All-Access member level at patreon.com/TWCpod. This gets you access to discount codes for events, for other objects online, and our safe and inclusive online Slack community. The show is hosted by me, Wudan Yan. Our producer is Margaret Osborne and our editor is Susan Valot.