Ask Us Anything, Part 2
SEASON 2, EPISODE 5:
For our mid-season episode, we're addressing Writers' Co-op members' questions! We dig into how to ask your anchor clients for a raise; project pricing versus hourly rates; how to take time off when you're sick; budgeting strategies; the perks of rotating stability™; how we track assignments each month; networking during the pandemic; how to cancel work without ruining relationships; and managing freelancing while holding down a full-time job. If you're a Patreon member, you get access to a worksheet about finding your ideal financial range, and you get a look into how Wudan and Jenni manage their own workflows, with a bonus assignment tracking template.
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Full Transcript Below:
W- Hello and welcome to The Writers' Co-op
J- We are your co-hosts. I'm Jenni Gritters
W- And I'm Wudan Yan.
J- Hey Wudan, how's it going?
W- Uh, pandemic fine. Winter is coming. Winter is here. Winter may be already here wherever you're listening to this, whatever you want to call it. I'm just finding ways to keep myself sane. What about you, Jenni? Have you come up with any interesting strategies for that?
J- Yeah, I've actually been having morning coffee dates with people on Zoom before I start my workday, like friends who live all over the country. And it really starts my day off on the right foot. So it's been pretty nice. We have also been trying to do family adventures on Wednesdays, especially because on weekdays there are fewer people out. So pumpkin patches and hikes and visiting places in the city, outdoor places that we've never been, it has been good. It has been giving me something to look forward to. But I'm going to be honest. I just really miss traveling
W- I hear that. And I also really love that morning coffee idea. I personally have been having a hard time getting out of bed because the world is literally so dark when I'm usually up. And so once I'm out, I have to scramble to start my day. Alas. My big thing is I'm trying to take at least a long weekend off every month to keep my brain still engaged. So far, I've booked a weekend on the Oregon coast and a week out in the desert in December, just doing the best I can within reason, basically. I know people are flying, but there is a huge part of my survival brain. That's like, no, don't do it. Do this. Like time-intensive thing that is driving instead,
J- It all feels kind of bad. And someone told me when I was pregnant, this too shall pass, but very, very, very freaking slowly. And that feels accurate to this current moment.
W- Yeah, indeed. And somebody, maybe it was, you pointed out to me the other day that it's almost 2021. Who thought we would make it out?
J- Yeah. I don't even know. I keep thinking, like everybody's saying like 2020 is hellish and I'm like, wait, it's actually almost over, but you know, I'm excited. It's good to be entering a new year. So on that note, this is our mid-season episode, which is always a favorite.
W- Yes. And what that means is that we're here to take our co-op members questions. So first just a big thank you to everyone who has supported us on Patreon through season one and two, we are so appreciative of the questions that you've contributed.
J- Yeah. We got so many questions this time and we tried to pick a few that will help us get into issues that we haven't already discussed. So we'll try to address the rest of the questions on upcoming additions of our members only Ask TWC newsletter as well, but let's dig in.
W- Okay. First up a question about raising rates: I have a weekly freelance gig that makes up my income base. I was given a proposed rate when I started and I've been invoicing based off of that rate since I started writing for the company since March. That being said, I've never actually discussed the rate with my editors. And whenever I increase my rate per single assignments, if the assignment is longer or shorter than usual, it's always accepted without question. I'm starting to think that the lack of negotiation means that I'm not asking for enough. What is your advice for beginning of the conversation with my editors about possibly raising my rate? Jenni What say ye?
J- I say yes. Negotiate for more. You know, first I am curious about who this company is. I think that what we base our rates off of journalism expectations, we often ask for a rate that's too cheap for say a tech client. So when I start my conversation with coaching clients about money or with other clients, for my personal freelance business, what I do is I do a bit of research beforehand to get a sense for whether I think I can push at the top end of my rate, or if I should aim somewhere in the middle. It's really, really helpful if you can find somebody else who has been working with that client, because then you can ask them what they're getting, even like ballpark info is going to be really helpful. So this question also suggests to me just at like a base level, that you're not happy with the rate. So in that sense also, yes, it's time to have a conversation with them, rates that feel low can sort of erode at your creative energy. I think. So I really want to push you to be honest with your clients.
W- I completely agree. I think any time is a good time to revisit your rate agreement as a freelancer. If you've been doing work regularly for them, you can shoot a note to your editor being like, I really enjoyed working with you. I was wondering if there was an opportunity to revisit my contract and specifically the rates.
J- With freelancing, you know, with everything about freelancing, there isn't really a fixed formula and you know, you're not going to have an annual or quarterly performance review, probably. You would have that if you're on staff, but not if you're freelance. And the benefit of that is that you get to make the rules. So like Wudan said, you can have that conversation now. I usually like to up my rates when I hit a year with a client, if I haven't had an opportunity to have that conversation beforehand. Or if I've just completed a big project that they're really happy with, I also sometimes will ask for a rate bump. I know that I make my client's lives easier because I'm efficient and I give them clean copy. And so I sometimes say that, like: I really want to keep working together. I'm raising my rates. Can we discuss? I know our relationship has been fantastic. Let's figure out how we can build on that. And I would say most of the time, even if they can't give me a raise bump, right then, the conversation is good.
W- Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, all of this depends a lot on the client. For clients who I have annual agreements with, I try and give myself a raise and negotiate that every year and then I'm more or less locked in. So for clients where I'm working with them on a project to project basis, I negotiate those rates more ad hoc. I think for this question, it seems like the rate fluctuates perhaps based on word count. And I wonder if it's more valuable for the freelancer to think about getting a project rate or getting on a retainer of some kind. Also, I personally love the language "can we discuss [fill in the blank]" because you are showing your cards and you're also hoping to have a conversation. It's not an ultimatum, like I'm raising my rates and if you don't meet them, I'm walking away. I think that language "can we discuss" shows that you're willing to collaborate
J- Totally, it's relationship building, right? It's like the next step lately. I have been negotiating for a one-off trial project rate for my first project, with a new client, and then trying to edge into a monthly retainer agreement after that or some kind of regular work together. So I know we haven't talked much about retainers on the podcast yet, but a retainer is basically when a client agrees to pay you a monthly fee to reserve your time. So either they'll pay you maybe a set amount each month to cover X hours of work or X number of projects, or they'll pay several hundred dollars to essentially reserve you and then pay you for stacked projects on top of that, depending on how much work they need. So especially during a pandemic, I've been encouraging folks to ask for this. It's more so almost symbolic of stability. It means you're a regular contributor. And I think it actually helps both parties if you enjoy working together because it assists with long-term planning. So as Wudan said, we're also really big on project rates over per word or per hour rates. Wudan, do you want to explain that quickly before we move on to the next question?
W- Yes. I've been yelling about this on Twitter. So I'll yell about it on the podcast too. So project rates are the big, big game changer in my experience, but they're also really tricky to establish because these prices require you to give your best estimate. So it's like an educated guess. So let's first talk about per hour rates. These come up a lot in freelance research or fact-checking gigs or editing. The issue with hourly rates is that it punishes people who are efficient and the more experience you have with something, the more efficient you're likely to become. I actually really struggled with this earlier in the year, I have a regular fact checking client who is paying me $50 an hour. I asked for a raise and they said that I was already topping out on their hourly rate. Project rates, on the other hand, basically hide that true hourly rate, which is actually fine because now you and the client are deciding on what the value of the end product is. And that end product is either, you know, a fully accurate podcast series, a fully accurate book or an edited project. If you are less experienced, you're still getting paid, what the project is worth and your hourly rate might be lower than somebody who's more experienced. And obviously if you're more experienced, you're probably working faster. And so your hourly rate will be higher. Along with this are per word rates. They're also not great. I know writers talk so much about getting the coveted, you know, $1 award assignment, but you can get assigned an 800 word story that's actually super complex at that rate and you'll spend so much time understanding the content, synthesizing it and dealing with edits. So I think project rates are a better way to think about what an assignment is worth. And with that, I'm going to get off my soap box.
J- I love this stuff. You know that. I think you really summed it up well. The whole thing here is really just a time money equation. You know, how can you get paid based on your level of expertise and also make sure you have enough time to do the project and up your hourly rate? Project fee is the answer. I did the math recently and I'm making about $200 an hour for some of my clients because the projects are project fee-based and I'm really fast. So this literally is one of the ways that a six-figure year happens. I think people are always like But isn't your rate $50 an hour? It's like, well, sometimes it is, but a lot of times it's $200-$300 an hour. If it's a project rate. So do the estimate, figure out how long you think it'll take, add a buffer, talk to your client and then do the project as fast as you can while still making it high quality
W- Agreed on all counts. Okay, Jenni, what is our next question?
J- The next question is a good one. It is: How often do you take sick leave and how do you handle it in terms of budgeting and pushing back deadlines? Do you want to try and answer that one first?
W- Sure. I honestly don't take sick leave for myself. I take a lot of days off. I just looked at my calendar and in October I took five days off, including weekends, and I think that's kind of the same thing. So here's the thing: for some freelancers you're on a day rate, right? Like if you're a photographer, or videographer, you are literally getting paid by the day. Sometimes project, but day rates are really common. I'm getting paid by the project. Again, I'm plugging project rates. So it's really about when that project gets accepted or publishes that triggers payment. And a day or two off because I'm sick or because I want to run around in the mountains is not going to kill my business model. It just means that my payment for the project may be delayed a day or two. So Jenni, how do you think about all this?
J- Yeah, I pay into Washington's paid family leave program. I originally signed up for it because I was having a baby and it provides maternity leave coverage, but it also means that I can get sick time if I needed it for like a major surgery, for example. So if I ended up in the hospital, I actually could get up to a thousand dollars a week. You can also use it to take care of a sick loved one. I think a lot of States don't have this. You should check if yours does five or six States have it by now, but I pay about $50 a quarter to be able to use it. And that mentally for me, I think is a big deal. Like if something catastrophic happens do have some protection. For me mentally, I think vacation and sick time are kind of all lumped into one pile business-wise, like what Wudan said. I take a lot of time off, which prevents me from overworking, which prevents burnout, which means I get sick a lot less. Like I actually get sick a lot less as a freelancer than I did at my old jobs, because at my old jobs, I was never pausing to take care of myself. I also take a lot more vacation time now, even though I had unlimited vacation before, so now I've learned to pause. But that five or six weeks per year, that I take off definitely accounts for being sick as well. And if I am sick, to the question about pushing deadlines back, I wake up and I'll email anybody who's expecting something from me that day. So editors or coaching clients, or even potential interviewees. I don't take the calls if I'm sick. And I think that is sometimes tough for freelancers. Like you're sitting at home and it feels like, Oh, I'm sick in bed, but I could still do this work. I think it's important to train yourself to take a break. So I usually push the deadline by about three days to a week, depending on how sick I am, to give myself some time to recover. When I was pregnant, I had hyperemesis, which means I threw up multiple times every day. And this was a big lesson in taking a break because I literally would wake up like almost every day feeling terrible. And I learned that direct and honest communication, not sob stories, but just like, "Hey, I woke up sick" really wins the day because most of the time what you're working on is just like not actually urgent and you can take another day or two days to do it. Wudan, why don't you tell me how much time off do you take each year? And do you have strategies for telling editors when you're going to step away
W- Yeah, I forget what I said in season one. I try and take somewhere between six to eight weeks because I am secretly European. I'm kidding. I don't have a drop of European blood coursing through my veins. I think I'm at five weeks right now. So we're recording at the end of October and I think I will definitely get to six, maybe eight this year If I let myself take all of December off. I think, Jenni, you and I are a little different in the sense that you're good at planning vacations pretty far in advance while I fly by the seat of my pants. So I try and plan time off when I see a clearing in my deadlines. Usually if a story is somewhere between edits and going to press and I have to step away, I'll just let my editors know in case they need me. My emails are like, I'm going to be away from date X to Y. So can I help with anything beforehand or once I return? I mostly just keep it really simple.
J- I love it. You don't ask if you're going to step away, you say these are the dates I'm gone. That is my favorite strategy. Okay, next question.
W- Here it is: How do you budget when you don't know when the money will be paid? For example, I've written multiple pieces for an online outlet and the contract states payment will be within 45 days of publication, but I never know when the pieces will be published. Sometimes it's right away. Sometimes it takes a month or more. I've had similar experiences with print publications. So how do you plan your finances when you don't know when the money is going to come in? Jenni, want to tackle that
J- Budgeting! Yes, I will tackle this. So I have a few strategies. I think first step, I always negotiate for payment upon approval, not publication. As a writer, you don't get to choose when something publishes. And if you have to wait for the piece to publish, like you just said, you could be waiting for, you know, a week or six months. So instead I want you to be able to invoice when the editor approves your final draft, like when you're done with writing. And that's something that you can talk to your editor about. I have found that most places are amenable to this change, especially if I can get the editor to sort of back me up on this. And it makes a really big difference. Wudan, you're kind of the one who taught me this. You do this a lot, right?
W- Yes, I almost always try and get pay unacceptance written into my contracts unless I know a client usually publishes pretty fast. I also try and get advances on really big projects. I talked about this a lot last season on episode seven, FU Pay Me. If a client can't budge on their payment terms, I also stack interest into my project rate. So the client accounts for the loan that they're in essence taking from me by paying after net 30.
J- Yes. The other thing I do is I usually don't do all one off assignments. This helps with budgeting too. Wudan and I call this rotating stability™. So it means finding clients who will offer you regular work. It's the retainer stuff I was talking about before. Then you'll have a few thousand dollars kind of stably coming in each month and at least you can pay your rent, right? You also get a sense for what is happening in your bank account with like a little bit more clarity. Living in $500 increments is really tough. It makes budgeting super, super hard. Our previous podcast guest, Matt Villano talked a lot about that. He was like, "I used to live in $500 increments. And now I'm looking for clients who want to work with me on a regular basis." That regularity really helps because you have that stable ground floor and then you can stack feature stories or one off assignments on top of those anchor gigs. I also keep track of my assignments in a spreadsheet. We will send some of our Patreon members, a couple of different assignment tracking options because Wudan and I both use different systems. I think it doesn't really matter what you use, like as long as you're using something. That's important.
W- Yeah, I agree. Don't create something new, create something that works into your workflow. I also have a spreadsheet. I have a tab for work and it shows me the stuff that I have commissions for, but are not yet paid out. And a whole other tab that tracks all my invoices. The number that I really care about is ultimately how much I'm invoicing for every month.
J- Yeah I also track based on invoicing. We've never actually talked about this. It's funny that we both do it the same way, but that makes sense because our brains work similarly. But each month, like for example, this month I'm invoicing for $10,500. Last month, I invoiced for $4,500 that really evens out in the end, but it's going to help me see what's coming in because I'm not really going to expect to see that money for one to two months. So for example, if I'm getting paid, you know, for most of that $10,500, I'm gonna probably see it at the end of December, maybe in November, even though I invoiced for it in October. And knowing that means I'm not expecting it to roll in right away, I'm not waiting on that money. But I do have the stuff from last month that's rolling in now. So QuickBooks helps me see what payments are coming up because it tracks my invoice deadlines. And I also find that super useful.
W- Definitely. And I don't use any systems. I think everyone knows my life depends on Google Sheets, but my assistant helps check in with that tab and therefore my invoices and when they're about to be due.
J- Yeah. The final thing I'll say on this is that I want you to have enough money in your business bank account that you can pay two months bills without getting paid this month. I know that sounds like the craziest hugest deal, but it is doable. And if you listen to season one, episode two, we get into this a little bit. So I actually pay myself a paycheck every month. I put about $4,000 from my business account, into my shared checking with my husband. That's what I use to pay bills on big months, like this month, for example, if I'm making $10,500, that's like 6K, that's going to stay in that business bank account. And that could cover next month, should something happen? Right? So I think that sort of safety net is really important for budgeting, but a lot of it is just knowing where your money is moving and that is going to be based on what system works for you.
Okay. On to the next question: What is the pandemic equivalent of asking an editor out to lunch? I recently had a great experience with an editor who loved my piece. She got a great career path and I'd really love to pick her brain on more places to pitch because it's a very specific world: comics journalism, which I want to break into. And she knows this world really well. I also want to know how she got her book published. However, I know she's busy and the fact that I can't at least compensate for her time with an offer of paying for lunch makes me kind of nervous. I want to offer something, even if it's a Wudan, you're up.
W- I love this question, especially since I love the ask an editor out to coffee approach and even the pre-pandemic times. I think it's great that you already have a relationship with this editor. So I'd lean into that momentum. You can write her an email that says something to the tune of "It was great working together on this piece. If you have time, I'd love to talk more about your experience in comics journalism. In ordinary times, I would buy you a or a meal and I'm happy to Venmo you for the equivalent. If you're up for chatting more, what times work?"
J- I love the Venmoing idea. To send her, you know, just maybe a little bit of money to cover this. It sounds really maybe weird and transactional, but I actually think it comes across as understanding that their time is valuable. I went through a phase where I would Venmo random friends and coworkers, like five-ish dollars for a coffee or a beer each week. I would pick one to two people and it brought me so much joy. And then they would do that for other people. It's kind of like paying for the coffee of the person behind you in line, right? The pandemic version. So even though it's a little COVID weird, I say do it. Send a Venmo, you know, compensate that editor for their time. I think it's really important. And I think it's kind.
W- Yeah. I think I live under the idea that nobody really owes you their time and being conscientious of that time is valuable for other people is an important step, period.
J- Yep. The key here is just to keep things short, sweet, simple, direct. Editors are constantly bombarded by emails. So I think it'd be really smart to send an email like this soon after the story you've worked together runs as well. Just so it's top of mind.
W- I agree. Okay, Jenny, this next question is for you. How did you handle canceling work in August without ruining your relationships with the commissioning editors or companies? How did you phrase your emails and ensure that they'll still perceive you as reliable in the future?
J- Well, first I cried.
W- So legit.
J- Like actually I knew I needed to scale back my work, but I was also really nervous to do it. I love overworking. It's like part of my identity in a problematic way as Anne Helen Petersen discusses in her new book about millennial burnout: Can't Even. So you know, upfront, I want to just say this isn't easy. I sat in my office making a very sad face for an entire day before I could work up the nerve to tackle the issue or even like, you know, see what I needed to cancel that was on my radar.
W- I am really also down with feeling all of your feelings before taking any kind of action.
J- Agreed. I think I needed to like grieve a little bit before I could figure out what to do. So strategically I looked at the work that I had booked for August and September. Once I was like done being sad. And I realized I had a few key clients on the list who weren't going to compensate me enough. You know, if I was working fewer hours, it just wasn't going to be enough. And those were the people I emailed. It sucked because several of those clients are clients that I love and have really good personal relationships with, but I had to be willing to give them up for good when I emailed them. And I think that's really important to note, like if you cancel on a client a month before you're going to work for them, they may not want to work with you again and that's valid. It's a risk that you're taking because you know, you want to reliable. That's really important. So these places weren't paying me the rates I needed. And I knew I was probably saying goodbye to them for the long haul anyway. I emailed these people who I love and know very well. And I just said directly, I'm dealing with a childcare crisis. I need to work less. I am going to be working less hours through X date, which means I cannot help you with your project at this time because I need to prioritize projects that are more highly paid, like super transparent, super honest, super direct. I said, I'm happy to touch base in a month and a half when I might have more availability. If you want to talk about changing our setup. And that was it. They were nice about it. They definitely, I think the childcare part is like, I don't want to say an easy out, but a very understandable thing during the pandemic, but they were also truly annoyed and I could tell. They didn't have the help they needed and it was short notice and they also didn't have more budget to offer me to say like, can we make it worth your while? And I knew that going in. So, you know, I offered to send them other people who might be able to help and they didn't take me up on the offer. It was hard. It was good, but it was hard. Yeah.
W- I think what you did is both hard and brave. It's boundary setting. You took that time to self-reflect to set up those boundaries and then communicate that directly with your clients. But you are also a good human in that process. So basically Bravo at that.
J- Thanks, Wudan.
W- I'm here for you, Jenni.
J- Thank you. You know, the TLDR is sometimes companies are going to cancel your work and sometimes you're going to cancel on them. It's sort of like dating again. It's usually not about you. It's about a company's shifting business priorities or about your shifting priorities. And you know, sometimes life gets in the way, like that's something that has been very clear to me over the past six months is that your business is your business, but life is often more important than your work. So yeah, my goal is to be a good human, keep the bridge intact if I can, if that's what you want, you know. For me, it's what I wanted because I love these people, but I don't think I'll probably work with them again. And you know, even though these editors may not end up on my client list in their current setup, what if they move to another publication later on, that can pay more? You really just never know. So I think it's worth it to have those relationships to fall back on if you're looking for work in the future,
W- Be a good human is truly the most underutilized motto when it comes to freelancing
J- One hundred percent. Okay. All right Wudan, last question for this episode: do you have any tips for freelancing while holding down a full-time job? I know it's how a lot of people get started, but I feel very frazzled with my attention pulled in different directions. You were a tutor for nearly a year during your first year of freelancing, right Wudan? Maybe you can tell us about that.
W- Yeah. So my answer is not going to be anything revolutionary or novel because it has to do with setting boundaries. So when I tutored, my tutoring work hours were from 2:30 in the afternoon to 10:30 PM at night. My mornings were free, but time was limited. And so was my energy. Although I was in my mid twenties then, so I had more energy. I really prioritized developing relationships with new clients. I prioritized writing features and honing my fact checking skills. I was also incredibly deliberate about publishing stories that I was excited about so I can show them off on my portfolio. So that's the first thing I'd say, go back to those values we talked about last season, like in our first episode, what do you value and what is the work that you want to do?
J- Agreed. I feel like this is our answer to a lot of questions: draw boundary lines clearly and draw them in a way that prioritizes what matters to you. I freelanced a bit on the side of my full-time jobs for four years or so. So I was always kind of doing something little on the side. Forever the millennial with the side hustle, I guess. But, you know, I would also say don't take on things that you don't want to do if you have a full-time job. Like the side hustle should really be focused on what you need to grow your skills. And I also talked to clients a lot about having an off-boarding plan in place so that you feel like there's some forward momentum. Like if you really want to eventually leave the staff job, you want to freelance with a purpose with an off-ramp that's going to sort of coast you into freelancing in a stable way.
W- I recently talked a coaching client through how to think about an ideal salary using a graph. And I'll put this in the show notes. And in essence, the X axis is how much money you can make. The Y axis is your quality of life and general happiness. The graph itself looks like a bell curve. I made this to explain to my client that there's an optimal range of money you want to make as a freelancer. Now, if you already have a full-time job, for instance, in this situation, you are already satisfying your basic needs. So do things that are going to make you proud. Don't over exert yourself. Don't take work that just gives you money because then you're inevitably going to veer into burnout. You already have so much space and stability to tap into your creative brain, to think about the things that you really do want to spend your time on to hold up that quality of life and not let it deteriorate because you're just overworking for the sake of working.
J- Yup. Well, I think you answered that super well. And with that, that is all we have for this episode.
W- We will be back in two weeks with more interviews with the pros, the remainder of this season is interesting, I'd say, and I'm really looking forward to digging in.
J- Yeah. I am excited about our upcoming guests who are going to talk about things like ghost writing and social media and book writing, all sorts of things. So it'll be fun.
W- Yeah. And also in that bucket, investigative reporting. Was it doable for freelancers to add these activities into their business plans? We have some answers for you. I'm pretty excited to show you the results.
J- Me too.
W- All right, Jenni, with that, I will see next time.
J- Bye Wudan.
W- Season two of The Writers' Co-op is made possible by a grant from the International Women's Media Foundation. Susan Valot is our editor and Jen Monnier handles research, admin, and more as our producer. The Writers' Co-op is hosted by me, Wudan Yan and Jenni Gritters
