Aurora Almendral
SEASON 2, EPISODE 3:
Freelance foreign reporting often gets a bad rap; it can be low-paid and exploitative. But that doesn't always have to be the case. This week, Aurora Almendral, an American freelance journalist based in Southeast Asia, joins us on the show to talk with Jenni about her freelance career path and how she makes foreign reporting work for her. Aurora has been a reporter since 2013, and she's currently a contributing writer for The New York Times and National Geographic Magazine. She's also a producer-reporter for NBC News. Aurora has reported on disaster, climate change, human trafficking, migration, business, politics, crime and culture. One of Aurora's superpowers is negotiation, which she frequently discusses on Twitter; during this episode, Jenni and Aurora discuss the best ways to negotiate with new or old clients, the benefits of fellowships, and how to find mentorship even when you're working for yourself. This week, Writers' Co-op Patreon members get access to info about Aurora's business plan and a template you can use to negotiate with clients, plus an extra tip sheet with negotiation FAQs answered by Aurora.
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Full Transcript Below:
J- Hi and welcome to The Writers' Co-op, a business podcast for freelance writers everywhere.
W- We are your co-hosts. I'm Wudan Yan.
J- And I am Jenni Gritters. Hi, Wudan.
W- Hi Jenni. How's it going?
J- Oh, you know, I'm just working from home in the middle of a pandemic in an industry that feels like it's imploding, but you know, we're cool. How are you?
W- Uh, I'm fine? I've been saying to people I'm like 2020 fine at this point, which is just being alive, relatively healthy. Have a roof over my head. You know, the basics.
J- Yeah, the bar is pretty low. You know, I've been trying to cut down on my doomscrolling, which seems to be helping my overall outlook. The news is rough and my brain is starting to feel all fuzzy when I spend too much time on screen. So I'm working on it.
W- Yeah. Is it the screen or is it the smoke? I literally can't tell at this point
J- I'm gonna say both. So tell me, how are you handling this lack of travel? I've been thinking about you because I know travel is a huge part of your business model and the long-term nature of this pandemic obviously makes travel like really, really difficult.
W- Yeah, thanks for asking. I mean, if I can be honest, I would say not traveling for work right now is making me really unhappy. My brain is used to constantly feeling inspired by being able to go to new places, which is such a privileged perspective. But without travel, every story assignment I take on feels the same in a way. Right? Like, I do it at home. I do it at my desk, on my phone. It's getting hard for me to feel excited. I'm sure nobody wants to hear it from me or either of us, but honestly, I'd rather keep it real on here.
J- Yeah. I would definitely rather keep it real. Because this work isn't always fulfilling. Like I go through these periods of yeah freelancing! And then I go through these periods of like, what am I doing? This is a bad choice. You know, it goes up and down, I think. And especially now that down feels like it's lasting for longer. So I know we've talked a lot about pivoting and finding new creative options. I talk to my coaching clients a lot about that, but where have you landed with the shape of your business during this pandemic?
W- To prevent my business from completely collapsing, I've been more likely to take on longer-term projects rather than one-off assignments. This is so strange for me when I've been like lalala I'm a freelancer in my own world. I'd rather be signed on to a project for a month or two months. That commitment gives me a sense of stability. And I've also added some new institutional and copywriting clients during this time.
J- Yeah. My workload is pivoting too, which in some ways I think is good. And then in some ways is frustrating. Overall. it's just sort of weird. I think there's a big grieving process throughout all of this, at least for me. And a lot of my coaching clients have been saying it's really hard to be ambitious right now with the new confines. I definitely feel that like, okay, why did I want to do this work again? And is the kind of work I want to do possible? So I think this actually fits into today's interview, which is with Aurora Almendral. She is an American freelance journalist based in Southeast Asia. And Aurora and I talked about how she usually travels a lot, but currently she's at home in Bangkok. She's focusing on local reporting because of COVID. We talked about that. We got into pro tips about negotiating and getting started in this industry, which is actually how we took notice of her on Twitter in the first place. She's really, really good at pushing rates and then also getting paid well for her work.
W- I just want to say, before we play that interview, that foreign reporting kind of gets bad reputation business model-wise.
J- What do you mean?
W- Well, I reported in Thailand for a few months before I moved to Seattle. And I think a lot of reporters who are just getting their feet wet with journalism like the idea of working overseas because the cost of living is usually lower than most places in the U.S. But publishers often pay very little for these international stories. I'm talking like $300 or $400 a pop for news analysis or even some features. And that's completely unsustainable because I really think it leads to burnout. So what I really love about Aurora is that she absolutely rejects that thinking. Once she told me about how she basically got 5-6x and outlets usual rates. I have never heard of that happening before. And I think it really goes to show how she sticks to her boundaries and knows the value of her work.
J- Yeah. I remember taking a foreign reporting class in graduate school and I was like this annoying girl who repeatedly would just say to my professor "But I don't understand how you make this work." Like I knew I wanted to have a family and I wanted to make a decent living wage and he would share with us often what he got paid for a story and the math just didn't work out. So I literally wrote foreign reporting off thinking it was one of the parts of journalism that wouldn't work for me, even though I was initially attracted to it. So I really love that we're going to hear from Aurora about how she makes all of this work.
And without further ado, here is that interview.
Hi Aurora, and welcome to The Writers' Co-op.
A- Hey Jenni, thanks for having me.
J- So before we get started, I have, you know, many, many questions for you about running a freelance business. But first I'd love to hear about where you are. What are you up to right now? Where are you living?
A- I'm in Bangkok right now. I'm here just covering news stories in Thailand and around the region. Usually I travel a lot, but obviously this isn't possible now. So I'm doing a lot of phone reporting.
J- We should say for our listeners, we are still recording in COVID times. So most of us are in place. Are you still working on stories and reporting in your local area at the moment?
A- Yeah, I'm reporting stories within Thailand, but because of the pandemic, the borders are closed, so I can't travel and I'm doing a lot of phone reporting.
J- Yep. That makes total sense. Why don't we start actually by kind of getting back to the beginning of your career? I always like to hear about where folks started in freelance journalism. And I know you actually came from a different industry. So will you tell us about the beginning of your career and how you ended up in this slightly crazy job?
A- Yeah, so I was working at the UN and then I switched to working at a startup. So that's where I was before I became a journalist. Neither of the jobs felt like a particularly good fit. And at some point I had a Fulbright and I was living in Morocco with a woman who became a journalist after that. And she was working for an organization that was training immigrants to become journalists. So I applied. And this organization's called Feet in 2 Worlds. It trained me up in radio journalism in journalism in general, and set me up with two of my first clients. So from there I quit my job at the startup and I thought I wanted to be a foreign correspondent. So I went to the Philippines and did a couple of stories there for The World, which is where I placed my first story ever and have been in Asia since, more or less.
J- Yeah. Tell me about placing that first story. What was that experience like and how did it work for you? We get so many questions about this from folks, right? Like how do you get that first byline? So how did that work for you?
A- It was through the fellowship program and they had a relationship with a couple of radio programs including The World. So they kind of facilitated the whole thing. So I was really lucky that way. I definitely wouldn't have done radio and I don't know if I would have been able to place a story, my first story, in the national program on my own. I doubt it.
J- Yeah, that's a great first byline. How did things go after that? You know, once you were done with the fellowship, how did you decide to continue doing this on a freelance basis rather than jumping into full-time jobs?
A- So this fellowship really held my hand for quite some time. I was affiliated with them for a while. And for six months I was covering immigration in New York for them and their radio partners. And then even after I moved to the Philippines to sort of test it out to be a foreign correspondent, they still helped me and my stories. If I was nervous about something, if I didn't know how to do something, I could call them up. Like there was this enormous typhoon that came into the Philippines in the first few months that I was there and I reached out to NPR asking them if I could file a news spot. And they accepted, to my incredible surprise. And so the first thing I did was call up the people in the fellowship and said, I don't know what a news spot is. NPR just took one, what do I do? And they said, this is what you do. Start off with the words in Manila and then just write what's happening. And so it really facilitated, I mean, did exactly what it was meant to do, which was to help immigrant journalists enter journalism. And for at least two years, I could still call on them. I still depend on them on some level of help when I needed to. It was a mentorship program in a way.
J- Yeah. It's amazing, fellowships, I think, can really serve as huge stepping stones for early career journalists, especially. Why don't you tell me about how your business brain was working at the beginning of this? You know, I think a lot of us sort of end up a year or two into freelancing and think, "Oh God. I'm actually running a business." So were you thinking about that at the beginning? And did you have any sort of idea about what you needed your finances to look like or what you wanted your business to be shaped as?
A- Not really. I mean, for the most part in the beginning, I was just kind of excited to get these assignments. But it also becomes immediately clear that you need money in order to operate. The idea behind this podcast and something that I really appreciate that you guys do is the transparency about finances. And at the time when I first started, the fellowship was helping with placing my stories and it was getting good outlets that way, but it obviously wasn't enough to make money. And so I was doing some copy editing for random corporations that made more money and I was doing some of that remotely. So by the time I was in the Philippines, I was still making money doing copy editing. And at the time my partner was a corporate lawyer, which is frankly just the biggest the biggest reason why I even considered going into such an uncertain job is because there's a lot of financial stability that comes from being with somebody who makes a good living in that way.
J- Yeah, absolutely. Wudan and I talk about that a lot. We both have partners who bring us stable incomes and it makes a huge difference I think, especially when you're jumping into this. So thank you for telling us that you had that. Yeah. It's an important part of the picture.
A- Yeah. And so in the beginning, when I was kind of just awed by the whole industry and just wanted to get my stories out there and to do as much work as possible, I definitely depended on that. And then when I started making my own money and thinking more in terms of paying for things myself and no longer depending on him, and eventually we did break up, then I had more concrete needs. It wasn't even a strategy. You know, in the beginning you're working for so little money that you just need to be able to pay rent and eat and pay your bills and things like that. And so I think that there wasn't a lot of strategy there, but I was reading books from the Harvard business review with titles, like how to make good decisions and things like that. Because I did know that this was a business and that I had to run it in that way. And because I had the experience with working for a startup before becoming a journalist, it was immensely important in helping me think of the job as something that had to generate income and how to be entrepreneurial. I was chasing a lot of new outlets all the time and each one had to pay me more than the last, is essentially how I made a decision when to move on from one outlet to the next. I mean just this entrepreneurial mindset where everyone is telling you no, and you believe that you can do it. So you just keep moving forward despite available evidence, in a way.
J- Yeah. It's a good industry for people who want to prove other people wrong. That's what I always think. Tell me about that strategy of wanting to make more at each place. Like when did you know it was time to move on or pitch somewhere new and up that pay structure just a little bit?
A- I mean, I was doing it constantly in the beginning. In the first couple of years, I was looking for new clients all the time and just cold emailing them, sending my links and what have you. I mean, after that typhoon that I mentioned earlier I had a regular reporting gig with an urban affairs magazine, which paid a monthly stipend, which also helped. It wasn't much, but at least I had that monthly stability early on. And if something paid, you know, $200, I learned, I think within one story that, that just wasn't going to be worth the effort. Most of the stories that I write, the vast majority are ones that require me to go out and report and it's just not enough to be paid $200. So I think I did that once, realized it wasn't going to work and pushed on to other outlets.
J- Yeah. That makes total sense to me. Wudan and I talk a lot about thinking about estimating how many hours a project is going to take and then using that to figure out: am I getting paid enough? I'm curious, bring us to the now, now that you've been doing this for a while, what is your business model look like now? How much are you making and what projects do you have in the mix?
A- Yeah. So this is about my seventh year of being a journalist and I've been freelance the whole time. I've been doing this for seven years and from about 2016 up to now, I made about between $50,000-$60,000 a year. And I do, I would say 95% journalism or reporting. And maybe once a year, I'll take on a project with a foundation or an NGO if it's well paid. But for the most part, it's almost all journalism.
J- Yeah. And you said you haven't looked for new clients in a little while. Tell me about that. Do you have sort of a bucket of stable clients that give you enough of those monthly gigs that you're not looking? Or how do you decide if it's maybe time to go looking?
A- One of sort of the key decisions that I made early on in my career, even though I said that I was looking for new clients all the time, once I found one, I stayed with them for a long time -- long enough that you develop a relationship with the editor and they give you bigger and bigger projects, they have more trust in you. And I think that that's a big part of what has worked for me is being able to develop long relationships with specific outlets and specific editors. There's just much more room for upward movement and bigger projects and growth that way. So I'm on retainer with one outlet and have been since 2016, which pays my sort of everyday costs. And then the rest of them have maybe three or four others that are constant, that are regular clients. And then every once in a while, there will be an incoming request from a new outlet. They'll ask me if I'm interested in writing for them. And then if I have the time and if their pay is sufficient, if they're paying enough for what they're asking for, then I'll take it on.
J- Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's great that you have that one that pays rent and things. I think my business changed once I hit the sort of threshold of, okay, now I have enough to pay rent, right? Like then my decisions become a little bit more complex about what to take on. So tell us about how you determined rates. I mean, are you thinking about per word, are you thinking about per hour? What plays in your head when you're choosing, whether you're going to say yes or no to that assignment that comes into your inbox?
A- Rates are sort of determined so differently by different outlets and they vary wildly, you know. Something that they can ask for the same amount of thing and one outlet will offer something less than a thousand dollars, which in general, for me is not, you know, that's kind of a baseline rate that I don't normally go below, and others will offer 10 times that for roughly the same thing. If it's a lot, if they're offering 10 times what somebody else is offering, obviously I take it. But beyond that, it's just a balance of how much I like the story or the outlet, how nice it is to work with the editor if I like that person, if we get along well and our way of working works well. And then I balance that against what they're paying. So maybe some, some outlets that, that have a lot of sort of extra positives, like, like a good editor and great distribution, lots of people read the story and they let me do that kind of story, then I'll settle for a lower rate without going below a point where I can't get past how little they're paying you. But if I have to think about how little I'm being paid, then I really shouldn't be doing it because then it's hard to even get the work out, right? If you're resentful that you're doing so much work for so little money, it's hard to get it done for me. And if I'm worried about money at all, it's hard for me to be creative. So those are the two sort of hard line things that I need to make sure are taken care of. And then I can consider other things like the ones I mentioned, like a good editor, the value of the story to me personally, and to the wider sort of industry and how many people are going to see it.
J- Yeah. That makes sense. I like hearing you talk about-- I mean, it's the same for me, right? The anxiety about money and the fact that I'm being sort of disrespected by that rate usually gets in the way of me producing something that's creative and well done. So tell me about negotiating. I know you've talked a little bit on Twitter about negotiating for rates or getting publications to pay you much more than that $200 they requisite offer. So tell me how you negotiate and when you decide to do it. And then if there are any sort of tactics that you typically take, if you're going to ask for more money on a project.
A- Yeah, I mean, in the beginning, when I was being offered really low rates, then I always negotiated. I mean, at no point in the first several years, was anyone paying me enough for the work that I was doing. So I always negotiated. Later on, when the rates are a little bit better and sometimes I'm happy with the rates that they're offering then maybe I'll negotiate something else like the travel or the word length and things like that. The other thing that I do is I walk away from outlets that don't pay enough. And often I tell them why, if that reason is money. I'm not mean about it or anything. But I think that one of the things they keep in mind when I'm negotiating for something, is that the person on the other side is also a person who uses money to buy things. So they understand why $200 or $600 or $1000 is not going to be enough for what they're asking. But if you just approach it in a kind of good faith way, you know, I can't afford to work for this amount of money. And I've walked away many times and sometimes they come back to me and are able to pay more. And I don't feel like I'm going into battle. I just want to have a conversation with another normal adult who needs to pay for things in order to live. So I just kind of throw the number out there. And then if it works for us, if we find a way to make it work with their restrictions and my restrictions, then it's great. You know, we can move forward. But the other thing that I ended up negotiating from time to time is my current rate with my ongoing clients. And I think that with that, I just make an argument. I did this, I won this thing, I did this other thing, you know, like a list of the stories that I've done and anything else worth noting to try to make an argument to raise my rate.
J- Yeah. It's smart. We talk about giving yourself a raise, right? No, one's going to give you a raise when you're a freelancer except for yourself.
A- I mean, I do get raises from other people but I ask for it. And, I think people understand that because there's value to experience. So it's been a year or two that I've been working with you, so can we raise my rate because I've done this?
J- Yeah. That is a great way to think about it. I like also thinking about that the person on the other side is also someone who needs to buy stuff. I think we forget that there are humans on the other side of the inbox. So I think it's really helpful to think about it in that way. You said you were negotiating from the beginning. And I think we get a lot of questions from new freelancers who feel like they maybe don't have legs to stand on yet when it comes to negotiating because they're so new. So tell me about at the beginning, were you still using that same tactic of saying, you know, this is actually the rate that would work for me or did you go about it in a different way at that point?
A- You have to be very aware of your negotiating position and what leverage you have. And if you've just cold emailed someone and they don't know who you are and they offer you whatever their base rate is for a brand new freelancer that they don't know anything about, then your negotiating position isn't that good. But I think maybe I'd add 50 bucks to it or something. So I would say, "Oh, thanks. I'm glad that you're interested in the story, looking forward to working with you on this. Can we make this 650 instead of 600?" And usually, you know, that can work and it sets you up for this upward movement. Or you can say "That sounds really good. I'm very happy to work with you. These are my expenses." And just kind of go through what expenses they are and then hopefully they'll approve them. And I think for me, for the most part, they've always approved. I've never had anyone turn down my expenses. And this is something that has surprised me because I come to learn later on that many freelancers are paying their own expenses, which I think that's not helpful for your business model. If you want to be, you know, professional, I think that something to keep in mind is to work for outlets that are paying your expenses and to ask for it.
J- Tell me what you mean by expenses. Folks will ask things like "Can I ask them to pay for transcription?" for example. So do you have a list of things that you typically outlined for them saying, this is what I would like you to pay for?
A- For me working overseas, I usually need a translator or a fixer, as we call them, I do speak some language, so I don't always need a translator, but it does help to have somebody else to help with the groundwork things. Especially if it's trying to enter an area that I don't particularly know well, I don't have contacts in and is dangerous for outsiders or something like that. That's the main cost. Like cars, food, gasoline, you know, just anything, obviously flights and hotels and things like that. Anything that's involved with carrying out the job to rent a boat or something.
J- Yeah. That's really good to remember. I think that's something people often don't factor into the overall price of their work. Right. Which is super smart that you think that way,
A- Sometimes those expenses exceed my rates. So I wouldn't be able to do them without that.
J- Yeah. That's, it's smart. I think I want to take a little sidestep because I know you mentioned that you did some copy editing and that you also sometimes will do occasional projects for NGOs. Will you tell me a little bit about kind of that non-journalistic work and how you decide if you're going to do that, how it sort of pairs with your other work and then maybe how it also compares to the other work in terms of payment?
A- Yeah. I think I've done three or something in the last four years, so I don't have a lot of information, but it's usually something where they email me, have seen my work or was recommended by somebody. I only am willing to accept it if they pay far more than journalism does-- you know, a minimum of five figures, I would say. And the work is almost always because they want a journalist to do this thing. So the work is pretty much the same, but you're doing it for an NGO or a foundation. So yeah. It uses the same skillset.
J- Yeah. That makes sense. So you're telling stories for them in some, some context. A lot of folks will ask us about that sort of ethical boundary of journalism, you know, and how it compares to working with an NGO, and can you ever do both? Are you very picky about the projects that you will take on based on your reporting? And how do you make those choices?
A- Yeah, if it's anything that falls I will stay away from that subject forever. It's not something that it will go on to cover. If it's something that I do cover and I want to be able to continue covering it, then I won't take on the job because of conflicts. But if something that I would never cover and they just want to get something out on the subject, then I'll do that.
J- Yeah. Five figure goals sounds like a good plan to me. Tell me about project management and how, you know, you have a lot of irons in the fire it sounds like. How do you keep track of all those projects and different places in reporting for different pieces? How do you tend to juggle or think about that pile of work that you have?
A- I'm not sure if it's a lot for one person to have going at one time. I think I have about four or five projects right now in different stages of completion, different levels of editing. And I think that it's not too much to keep it all sort of organized in your mind. Occasionally I'll have a lull and work and just do a big chase, you know, sending all these pitches to my clients. And then, you know, unfortunately they all come through at the same moment or something like that. And then you have a really large pile of work. And I think that you just have to do it, you know, you just have to pull the hours and do it. There's not really a secret to that for me at least, but otherwise, I do keep a really active handwritten calendar, so I can have a big view of what's happening. An ongoing to-do list. And I know that for the next two days, I have to write this thing because on Saturday I have to report that thing. And if I don't, and then there's a deadline on this day-- it all sort of falls into place pretty easily in the calendar. And then also I cover news. So sometimes there are just things that take precedence because it's a news issue and you have to get it out really quickly. And the other things are features and maybe can wait a little bit.
J- Yeah, I do the same thing where I map out kind of: okay, if this thing needs to be due to edits on this day, then the reporting is this day. I sort of back up the steps a little bit, so I make sure I'm getting them all done. I'm also a big fan of handwriting for whatever reason. It's like better for my brain.
A- It does not help me to have everything online. I need the big picture view. I need to see it all kind of next to each other.
J- Yeah. I'm the same way. Well, we're rounding out on time, but one thing I want to hear from you is sort of your thoughts on why you think it's important for freelancers to think of themselves as businesses. And then maybe one business decision that you've made that you think was paramount to building a career in this way.
A- I mean, if you're a freelancer and you don't think of yourself as a business then it's hard to make the right decisions to make enough money to be able to have the kind of sustained career that I think we all want, or at least I want. My goal is to be doing this for as long as possible and getting better and better stories and thinking of the work that I do relative to the money that I make, that facilitates that, helps me make decisions on how to move forward. And I think that the best business decision I made was to value myself and my own work. And as soon as I started doing that and demanding reasonable rates-- or asking for reasonable rates, then other people started valuing me and the rates that I was offered off the bat, even before I started negotiating became higher. Because I was a professional person, who's doing this for a living. And I think that there's just, there was just a different level between that and someone who's kind of scraping by, and perhaps not taking this seriously as a job. And I think that that shows in the work that you produce and the way that you deal with people and in the final outcome of the stories that you put out,
J- Tell me about how you got to that place. People always ask me that. Like how do you get to the point of deciding that you're valuable enough? Is it just a decision you make one day or is it personal work or was there something else that sort of flipped a switch for you to be able to feel like you owned this as a career?
A- I'm definitely the kind of person who thinks that nothing I produce is good enough and it doesn't really live up to my own expectations, which I think happens to a lot of writers and a lot of journalists. But I also knew that judging from sort of outside information and the outlets that I was publishing in that there was already value in my work. And I saw other people, other freelancers, photographers in particular are much better with valuing their work because they have a stricter pay structure in photojournalism. And so that helped me kind of think of how to have that kind of-- I don't know. I honestly, I did learn a lot from photojournalists who do a lot of the things that I've taken on now, which is making sure that they're being paid an industry standard that they're getting paid expenses and photojournalists are usually paid by day. And so that has a really strong correlation to how much time you spend on doing something and how much you're paid. So I think that seeing a different industry work it out helped me sort of figure out what, what it means to ask for your worth and eventually get it.
J- I like that, because it's just using our journalistic research skills to, you know, think about how what we're doing compares to other industries. I always tell people: do your homework and figure out what everyone else is getting or what, how this works somewhere else and use that as fodder for yourself. So I love that. I think that's a good answer. Well, we are out of time, but why don't you tell us, where can we find your work? Should we follow you on Twitter? Where do you spend time these days online so that people can find your work?
A- Well, I have a lot of things on private because people can be vicious. But I'm on Twitter. Aurora Almendral. @auroraalmendral, or I have a website, Aurora-Almendral.com where I put most of my work.
J- Great. Well, thank you so much for cluing us into how your business works and we can't wait to read what you write next.
A- Thank you so much.
W- Aurora is really, really inspiring.
J- Agreed. I think she is one of the few journalists I know who does pretty much just reporting projects and her reporting is really, really well done. So I know we don't talk about craft on here, but I will say it's worth taking a read through her work. I think she will leave you feeling really inspired about what's possible as a journalist.
W- I learned of her work when I was working in Southeast Asia. And it's great to hear her talk about the backend of how she runs her business.
J- I also like hearing Aurora talk about negotiation and especially for new writers. Pushing the rate even a little bit when you're starting is good practice because it means you're getting paid a little bit more each time you work on a piece. I like what she said about understanding your position when it comes to negotiating and also about remembering that there's a person on the other side of the email inbox, another person who needs to pay their rent.
W- Yes. And I totally feel what she said about not getting paid enough makes you also feel frustrated while you're working, that you can't do good creative work at all.
J- Yeah. That low number doesn't just impact my bank account. It also impacts my creative brain. So we asked Aurora to make a negotiation script since she's so good at pushing back on rates and the contract terms. We will be sending those scripts and negotiation tips to all of our members. All Access, VIP, Pod Squad, Pitch Perfect. All y'all. I think you'll find them really helpful.
W- Pod squad. Aurora is another example of how fellowships can really make a difference too.
J- Yes. I know we talked a little bit about fellowships last season, and we've done some events about this, but maybe let's say a little bit more about those right now because grants have made our podcast possible. Shout out to IWMF for sponsoring this season. And I know for you, Wudan, grants and fellowships have really helped with your career switch.
W- Yeah. I talk about grants and fellowships being like free money. Free money to support a pipe dream that you've had an idea for for a while. I would say if a publication can't pay for your reporting trip or the ambitious version of the story that you want to write, grants are the answer.
J- Yes. And I think maybe one of the biggest benefits of a fellowship is the mentorship aspect that Aurora talked about. Having someone to ask when you get into a story and you don't know what to do or how to report it, because freelancing can be super lonely.
W- I agree. And not all grants come with this mentorship aspect, but if you are interested in the grants and fellowships route, we actually have sample grant applications on a package on our website, which you can buy
J- Grants are totally Wudan's superpower, so that package is pure gold.
W- Why thank you. I honestly think the big takeaway here for me is that different people prioritize different things, right? It comes back to values, which plugs into how they run their businesses. Last episode, we talked to Matt Villano. He makes six figures working largely with corporate clients. Episode one, we had Maya Kosoff who is full-time copywriting to give her a ground floor for everything else. And I think Aurora is a great example of what it looks like to do full-time foreign reporting. She's doing work she's passionate about and making around 50 K, which she said in this interview.
J- Yeah. Aurora wrote up a business plan for us as well. So we will be sharing that with our members. And I agree with you, Wudan. I think it's really cool to see all the different shapes and sizes of a successful business. So often people approach us wanting the quote-unquote rubric for success, like teach me how to make six figures right now. And I don't think that's necessarily the goal or that it shouldn't be the goal because six figures doesn't necessarily define success.
W- Lately there's been a lot of chatter on the internet, mostly twitter.com about six figures or making this coveted like $10,000 a month. And I just think these numbers are just numbers. We attach the value to it. What is the money amount that you want and need to make to make you feel happy and fulfilled? I actually made a graph. And I can put this in the show notes too. On the X axis is how much money you make, on the Y axis it's a scale of your quality of life and how happy you are. And I actually think this looks like a bell curve. There's a very narrow range at the top that very tippy tippy top where you're the happiest, your life feels amazing. There's, you know, good work-life integration. I'm avoiding saying work-life balance and you're not like busting your and feeling burnt out because you've taken on too much. Like that is the sweet spot. So values, they matter.
J- Yeah, figuring out what you care about is what dictates the shape and size of your business, which is what makes it something that you can do for more than like six months. You know, I really don't think you need to make a 100K. And I say that as someone who does make a 100K. If 50K provides you with the life that you want, that is a way better goal. So I actually have read a study that said $70,000 a year is a really psychologically solid place to be for most of the Western world. Because like Wudan said, it's a bell curve. You're not stressed about money, but you're also not likely overworked. It's like the more money, more problems thing. So I think for us and for these people that we're talking to, the early work of building a business really comes down to answering: what do you want to be doing? And then can you match your income goals to allow you to do those things that you're passionate about?
W- It's a lot of self-introspection, right? And it sounds a little woo woo. And I talked to my coaching clients about this all the time, but values really, really matter
J- I'm all about the woo woo. Woo woo-ajacent. And you know, I think it's true. I feel like every conversation I have with the client really comes back to mindset. Because values make a huge difference. So on that note, we are going to peace out, but we want you to email us and DM us and subscribe to our podcast. We are building up the second half of the second season right now. So we would love feedback on how to make it as helpful as possible for you. If there are topics you want to hear about, people you want to listen to, shoot us an email or a DM.
W- So good. Well, I will talk to you soon. Bye, Jenni.
J- Bye, Wudan.
W- Season two of The Writers’ Co-op is made possible by a grant from the International Women's Media Foundation. Susan Valot is our editor and Jen Monnier handles research, admin and more as our producer. The Writers' Co-op is hosted by me, Wudan Yan and Jenni Gritters.
