Confronting Fear with Nicole Tsong

SEASON 8, EPISODE 2

Career transitions often lead to some element of fear. For freelancers, this could be a fear of rejection or of losing stable income. Or it might show up as a little voice in your head that says: “But what if I fail?” Fear is meant to protect us, yet it can also hold us back from trying new things and thinking expansively about our businesses. 

In this episode, Nicole Tsong joins Wudan to talk about confronting this fear while making big career swings. 

Nicole is a former journalist-turned-podcast host and bestselling author. As the founder of Nicole Tsong Coaching and the School of Self-Worth podcast, she helps Asian American women leaders release the pressure valve, supercharge their self-worth and master intuitive decision making. You can follow her on Instagram at @nicoletsong. 

Nicole dives into how career growth doesn’t have to be linear, how to feel grounded before making a big decision, and how to think of decision-making as an experiment. 

Full Transcript Below:

Wudan Yan- Hi, everyone! Welcome back to the Writers' Co-op. I'm your host and executive producer, Wudan Yan. This season is all about thinking expansively about your business—shedding ideas of what you can or can't do, to do the thing that you've been dreaming of. I should say upfront that this season isn't only going to be applicable for folks who want to do something big. It applies to all freelancers, because working for yourselves is brave. Let me say that louder. In case nobody has told you lately, freelancing is incredibly brave. Things happen all the time in our businesses that force us to be that way. You're brave if you decide to diversify your services. You're brave if you're going to fire a client. You're brave if you decide to build an agency, or nail down in just one aspect of your business, and let go of the rest. This season, I'm going to feature stories of folks who have taken all sorts of leaps and bounds in their own lives and businesses. And on this episode, we're going to dive into the mindset that we need to create something new. When I work with coaching clients who are transitioning from, say, a full-time job into freelancing, there's usually an element of fear. Fear of losing stable income, paid vacation days insurance—these are all truly valid concerns, even when they know deep down that self-employment is right for them. That fear is trying to tell us something there. It's meant to protect us. It's also likely that that kind of fear stems from our lived experiences. It's like when I watch younger children move on the walls of the rock climbing gym. I'm amazed how they can be so dynamic on moves that would certainly give me pause. So when fear creeps into our day-to-day lives, it's worth addressing and talking about. Because talking about the thing that's scary, naming it, identifying it, and also being really kind and gentle to it, is a key step into taking the jump into something new. So we're going to talk about fear this episode, and I wanted my co-host to be someone who's taken big leaps in their career themselves in a nonlinear and non-traditional path. Nicole Tsong is the perfect co-host for this episode. She is a former journalist-turned-podcast host and best-selling author. As the founder of Nicole Tsong coaching and the School of Self-Worth podcast, Nicole helps Asian American women leaders release the pressure valve, supercharge their self worth, and master intuitive decision making. As an award-winning journalist, Nicole has reached hundreds of thousands of readers as the former Fit for Life columnist for The Seattle Times. And for three years—a fun fact—she taught yoga at the White House Easter Egg Roll during the Obama Administration. So I should say: If you're looking to do big things in your freelance business this year, or just crave ongoing support from a welcoming safe space, join the Writers' Co-op Slack community. Hundreds of members are sharing best practices and their tips when it comes to running their freelance business. I can't overstate how important it is to have a psychologically safe community to help bounce ideas around almost all the time. You can sign up today at the All-Access level on Patreon to get a link to join. That's at patreon.com/TWCpod. Here is my conversation with Nicole. All right, Nicole, welcome to the Writer's Co-op. Thanks so much for being here.

Nicole Tsong- Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Wudan- Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you, because I feel like you have this wide ranging experience, not just in your career, but life too. So why don't we start by talking about what you're doing now? And how did you get there?

Nicole- Yeah, so a big question, and I'll try to be succinct about all of it. So right now I help Asian American women leaders with releasing the pressure valve so they can master intuitive communication and really step into a fulfilled purposeful life. And how I got here...let's go back a few...a few years and started when I was a journalist. So I used to be a reporter. And I was really in it. Like, I was totally in this career and thought I would spend my whole life being a journalist. And I was really excited about everything I was doing. I was at the Anchorage Daily News. And I had always dreamed of living in Alaska. And so that was part of everything coming together, I felt like in my 20s. And they pulled me on to a Catholic sex abuse case. Case, they call it a case, but really, it was a project of like three months. And it was really exciting. It was super fun. And I was really deep in it. And I was working with the victims at the time. And the project came out. We won all these awards. I felt like I was really deep in my purposeful path. And then a year later, after the project came out, one of the victims died by suicide. And that was just a moment where I had never anticipated happening in my career—or in my life in general. And it affected me super deeply at that time, and I really felt like 'wow, I don't know if I really want to do this anymore.' But I didn't I actually know what to do. Like, I went to a career coach, and I was like, 'what do you do? How do you change everything?' And I had no idea. So I just kind of pivoted, and I ended up covering politics for a little while. I covered a US Senate race and covered Congress. And then I moved to home and garden, and I moved to The Seattle Times. My friends call it like, the 'going from politics to lamps.' And it was really pretty much the case. But I would say for myself, like, I didn't really understand what was next. And I just tried to make change where I knew how to, which was within my career itself. And then a few years later, I was happy, I was in features, and then the newsroom was going through some layoffs. And they moved me back out to the newsroom, because I had so much background in it. And I was so miserable. Like, I was like, I have to leave journalism. Like, I don't want to be in a situation again, where I could have to deal with something so confronting, so deep, so difficult, and I didn't really feel like I had the tools and the resources for it. And so I started to look around for other jobs. And at the time, I was also doing a lot of yoga. And I was really tuning into being physical in my body and really listening to my intuition. And it came in this moment where I was in a training and it was just like, really deep and really resonant. It was like, it's time for you to go. Like, you need to leave, like you need to go be a yoga teacher. And I was like, that seems really crazy. Why would I leave journalism to go be a yoga teacher? And I remember the moment where I really felt it, and I just decided to make it work. And I figured out a plan. And then I walked into my editor's office to give notice. And I was like, so nervous and was like, I can't believe I'm doing this. I can't believe I'm giving up this job. But I walked in, I gave notice, and then I remember I left her office and she like rushed over to the executive editor to tell him. And then I was like *exhales.* But it was just this moment where I was like, 'wow,' like I' have the power to change my own life.' And everyone was like you are such a first. Like, you're leaving journalism to teach yoga. And then after that, really, for myself, I've been following my intuition ever since. And it's led me to write three books and to, you know, be a yoga teacher for many years. And then I left that to launch my coaching business full time, start my own podcast, the School of Self Worth, and it's really guided me ever since.

Wudan- That's amazing. I mean, I think the thing about career tracks is like when you start on a path, people just assume even like very well-intentioned people who are designed to help you, you know, coach, you through your career, think that that industry is what you're going to be doing into the future. Like, there isn't the expansiveness about there are all these different other worlds out there. Maybe it's worth exploring those.

Nicole- It's really true. And I think for myself, you know, if you even go back into high school, college, like everyone asks you what you're going to be when you grow up, you know? And it's a—it's really interesting. And I was working on—my college was expanding a library. And I remember meeting the director of the library, and he told me, he didn't get his dream job until he was 33. And that actually always stuck with me in my 20s. Because I was like, 'well, he didn't figure it out 'til he was 33.' And then I actually have now had three careers. And I was like, 'well, 33 is still pretty young to have figured it out.' But I think a lot of times we get this idea, like, what's your major? What's your job going to be? How is this all going to make sense? And now whenever I talk to young people, I'm like, just go to college to learn. And if you're good at learning, you can have whatever career you want. You just need to be able to absorb, learn fast, try new things, and also be open and willing to change. And that is actually the best advantage you have.

Wudan- Absolutely. So this episode, Nicole, I really want to dig into how to think expansively, and also dig into the root cause of why so many of us can have expansive thoughts that ,you know, are not the traditional career path that people expect us to be on, but then get stuck with the element of fear. So I wanted to ask you about your—and I imagine that the first jump from journalism to yoga was probably the scariest for you, like, in comparison to going from yoga to writing books and becoming a coach, would you say that's correct?

Nicole- I would say yeah, yes. And it's still scary.

Wudan- Yeah.

Nicole- Like, I think that I'm just more familiar with it. Like, I understand the process of going through fear. Whereas when I did it that time, like, I had no understanding of it, and it was like literally the most terrifying thing I could imagine, was doing it and telling everyone I was gonna do it, and then having to do it. And then I was like, 'what is this?' Yeah, but I would say now, like, I think fear is an interesting thing, because it lives in your physical body. And so when you're feeling it, it feels like life or death, no matter how many times you've experienced it before. I just know how to navigate it.

Wudan- Yes, yes. That first time the blueprint for navigating and being familiar with that fear is is just not there. I mean, I've definitely felt the same before too. So tell me about how fear came up for you when you were about to leave journalism.

Nicole- Oh, I mean, I don't think that I thought of it that way. Like, I just was trying to control. I called it getting all my ducks in a row. Like I had all these rules around how much money I had to save before I left. I had all these rules around, like, how many yoga classes I had to have in place to like, replace my income. I'd moved to a different apartment that was cheaper. Like, I was doing all these things, and it was all around finances and money for me at the time. And so once I got and I hit those goals, then I felt like, 'okay, now it's okay to leave.' And I'm still a little like that these days, but I feel like less than I used to be. But back then, my way of dealing with it, it was just trying to make sure that everything I could control was in place so that when I took the leap, it wouldn't feel scary.

Wudan- That makes so much sense. I'm curious, Nicole, let's talk about how to break out of the mindset of needing to climb the ladder, which is not a thing that you have done, and definitely not a thing that I've done either. I guess what I mean, is breaking the need to climb the ladder in the traditional linear way that we in America are socialized towards thinking about careers.

Nicole- Yeah. And I feel like I did actually, when I was in journalism, I was definitely climbing a very particular ladder. It was just the journalism ladder, which ends at The New York Times, right? Like you have to—like there's no other ladder. Like you just go there, and it's all about like, starting small newspapers, and then working your way up into the bigger regional papers, making your name at the regional papers, so then you can eventually get the job at like, the Washington Post, is also an acceptable alternative—

Wudan- That's right

Nicole- —to The New York Times. And so, yeah. And so I did feel like I really was very much on the ladder. And I think that's why it was so scary for me to make the leap to yoga, because it was like—I didn't...there is also a ladder within yoga, I would say too. Like, how do you start to make your name? How do you start to get into the bigger festivals and all of those pieces? And I think that every time I—what I've really learned is that when you're looking at these ladders, and I think entrepreneurship also has this as well, and you have to just really examine, like, what is it that you're really desiring, and what kind of life do you really want to lead? Like for myself, when I was really honest, I didn't want to live in New York City. So The New York Times, it's like there would be some limitations, unless I got a job as like a national correspondent, right? Or if I looked at yoga, I was like, I didn't really want to travel all the time to festivals to be like the big name at a festival. And when I am really honest with what I'm desiring for the kind of life that I want to live, that keeps me from just climbing the ladder, because that seems like it's the only way. It's like, how do you actually make this work for the life that you want to live? And what I find for most people, the real challenge is that they haven't spent enough time thinking and really examining what it is that they want. They're very clear on the things that they don't want. Like, I was the same way. Like, I don't want to be the person and going to all these festivals. But then it's like, okay, well, what do you want? Like, what kind of life matters to you? How do you want to live your life, and it can be really scary and confronting for people, because we aren't always really clear on that part of it.

Wudan- That's so true. And I remember I moved to Seattle, eight years ago, and our friend was visiting. And she was like, 'oh, my gosh, you live such a wonderful life. It totally fits you here. You can walk everywhere, bike commute all around the city, have such easy access to hiking and stuff.' And I'm like, 'yeah, I wish somebody in college asked me what kind of life do you want, and then build a career around that, rather than usually the other way around, in the way that you're describing?'

Nicole- Yeah, I'm totally the same way, like part of what I love about my life, too, like we're both in Seattle. And I love the access to the outdoors in nature. And then also really having a balanced life. Like, I don't work more than 25, 30 hours per week, because I don't want to. Like, I want my work life to be really fulfilling and really engaging. And I want to be done with it at 4, so that I can go to yoga. Or I can go work out at the gym. And then on the weekends, go hiking and hang out with my husband and my dog and like do the things that I really enjoy. And a lot of times I think we're so socialized into this idea that the only way to have that kind of life is like working 50, 60 hours per week on a really insane job, so that you have like the finances and the ability to have the life you want. And I'm totally about breaking the mold, like you can actually not work like a crazy person. And I appreciate this about you too. Like, I know that that's always your intention as well. How do you have a life that really truly is balanced? And I think these days, it's harder than ever before to have that.

Wudan- Absolutely. So Nicole, I want to transition into talking about how we can start thinking expansively about our own careers as mostly freelancers, since that's the audience for the Writers' Co-op. But first of all, I want to hear about the typical clients who you work with in your coaching business. And what—if you could bucket what the typical pain points are, what would they be?

Nicole- Yeah, they're mostly women, I would say, that are in corporate careers of some sort. And then in that career—and they're typically like pretty high level of managers or directors—and they manage teams. And then a lot of them have families, so they feel like a lot of burden, both in terms of like managing their teams as well as their lives and like trying to balance how to have full life in both ways. And usually career tends to win out. Like, they tend to work really hard. They're working at night a lot. And then on top of that, they're not really feeling like acknowledged or recognized for the kind of work that they're doing. And so they're feeling, they're struggling with like, while they might have a job or a position that seems on the surface, like it's a really good one, or one where they have a lot of say in power, they don't necessarily feel like they're getting that recognition in their workplace.

Wudan- Yeah, that's really challenging. So like, in what ways I wonder, are they thinking expansively from where they sit?

Nicole- Well, I would say that when they start with me, they're not necessarily thinking expansively. And so my job with them is to help them start to see that, because a lot of times it can be that they feel very stuck on the ladder that they're climbing. And so their only idea of recognition is like, if I get that promotion, or I get that next stage, or I get a job that's going to give me, you know, the title that I'm desiring or maybe the money. But I find for most of them, starting to learn to think expansively is understanding, like on a deeper level, like who they really are. Because a lot of their identity and self-worth is very much tied up in their job. Like, their success is tied up in the title or what other people perceive. And they're putting their worth and value completely into that. And they don't know who they are separate with work. So we do a lot of work to understand who you are individually. And that work is just a thing that you're doing, rather than an identity that you have. And that's a really big piece of it. Most of the time, I find people are stuck on possibilities is because they think they are their job.

Wudan- Yeah, that resonates. For both of us, I think, especially with both of our backgrounds in journalism. I want to talk about fear, as it pertains to a perhaps limiting belief of stepping into the next thing, especially as a small business owner. And I'd love to dig into that with you, since both of us are small business owners. Why do you think this fear is so common? Like, what are people typically fearful of? And where does it come from?

Nicole- Yeah. Well, first of all, like, our brains are designed to feel fear. Like, it's part of our built in system. It's designed to keep you safe. It's really natural. Like, if you, you know, go back to the hunter-gatherer days. Like, there literally were threats around you all the time. And so you had this system to bring in adrenaline and bring in all the hormones to get you like running really fast, if like something that was coming in as a threat was right there. So it's built in. The challenge of these days is that we don't actually have those kinds of threats. Like, we're not physically at risk, most of us, most of the time, although I have seen your stories about hiking, and I'm like, 'whoa.' But most, like, most of the time, like, we're not in that situation, but that part of our brain is getting triggered and activated all the time still. And so you can look at and start to understand like, this is just your body's way of trying to protect you. And the other way to understand it is also that your brain is—doesn't really like change, because change means like it could put you at risk, right? It's like this, this is— and we're talking about, like sort of the basic part of the brain, but it's the most like, foundational piece of you is like 'change is scary, because change means there could be danger.' And so when it comes to change, like our brains, like really tried to protect us and keep us locked in the place that we're at. So a lot of the work is to understand, like, what does fear really trying to do to you, versus understanding it as like a thing to avoid. Because you can't really avoid it, and you can't change it. Like, you can't change that foundational way of how your brain works. So if you can kind of make more friends with it or understand it or be like, 'this is natural.' Like a lot of what I work with with my clients is understanding when you're starting to get clear on what you want to do, when you're starting to expand into different possibilities, fear is going to happen. Like it is not avoidable. You cannot stop it. But you can navigate it. And you can understand what it's trying to do, and how it's trying to help you. And then you can make a choice that's different than following the fear.

Wudan- What is like the path forward from noticing when fear comes to play? I totally asked this understanding that there not...might not be a one-size-fits-all solution, because people are so different. But yeah, I'm just curious if you can help us talk through that.

Nicole- Yeah. So a big part of it, I actually think, is calming your nervous system and really getting grounded in understanding like the reality of it. And if you're not practiced at getting grounded...so the thing about fear to understand too, is like, your phone sets off fear. Like, being on social media. All of those things. Like, we're being triggered by it constantly. And so when we can learn to really be present and like getting out of all the stuff that's happening in your brain that's continuing the fear cycle—and you're really working on your nervous system being present, clear and grounded and doing that consistently. So it's not just like a few minutes per day, but you're actually able to wire yourself up. Then all through the day, even if something dramatic happens at work, or something intense, or somebody emails you—and I know for freelancers, it could be like you're waiting to hear back from somebody, maybe you get a rejection for a proposal that you have—in that moment, are you getting wound up, reactive? Or can you actually learn to be settled and calm during that moment? And then once you can start to play with that cycle more, just like 'how do I get grounded, no matter what's going on?' That's gonna really help you navigate the fear. And it's very much around being aware that it's happening, and then understanding how to move through it quickly.

Wudan- Yeah, the fear that like the shoe, any shoe could drop at any moment. I feel like being so tied to email, where freelancers for sure, get a lot of work, and they manage their clients and vice versa through. I think all of that is incredibly stressful. So I totally agree that phones and technology really taps into our adrenaline response there. But I am curious, what are your favorite ways to get grounded?

Nicole- Yeah, there's so many different ways you can get grounded. So I like to just give some suggestions to people, because everybody has to figure out their own. I love—I meditate. For me, like that is definitely helpful for me every day. But I kind of think of it as like, this is like a system we need in place throughout the day. I also walk a lot. Like, I walk my dog, and walking is big for me. And I will say this too, moving your body in general is a really, really helpful way to do it, because your brain releases different kinds of hormones when you move your body. And then that also settles us out of that fear reaction. So I love to do that. I love to do yoga still all the time. Deep breathing helps, but also dancing around listening to music, like all of those are really helpful for getting grounded.

Wudan- I am very similar in wanting to move to just feel present and kind of not be at my screen. I think that's the great one. You talked about kind of thinking about failure, but also matching it to what's actually going on. And this is something that I do a lot with my coaching clients who usually come to me wanting to make changes in their business, and are like, 'oh, I can't ask for more. Oh, like I feel scary. Like it feels nerve wracking to ask a client for like, better contract terms or something else.' There's so much fear in the day-to-day, independent of being like, 'I want to start a new business venture. I want to scale to an agency.' And like, listening to that fear. But you know, one thing that I like to do in my coaching practice is be like, 'Well, try and negotiate this one time. How does it go? Like, write it down. Have that be a mirror to you to reflect the reality that it's actually okay to ask for more.' Yeah, just like this gathering of evidence that small steps are conditioning you, right, to be like, I did a semi-scary thing. So that fear, you know, it's still there. But it's not as real as I thought it was.

Yeah. And I feel like a lot of times when we have that big fear, especially fear of failure, and like there's this intense experience of like, I have to get it exactly right. And like, that perfectionism is something that I experience, I have experienced a lot in my wife and my clients do as well, is learning to just like, let the pressure off a little bit. Like how do we just start to whew, get a little bit calme. And then look at what's happening. And a lot of times for myself, what helps me think about—like, I'm like, this is all just an experiment. Like, there's no—

Wudan- Yes

Nicole- Like, there's nothing that's going to come out of this that's good or bad. It's just an experiment. And if it works, it's great. And if it doesn't work, that's okay, too. And when I can start to look at my life a little bit more that way, it really helps me. And my clients, we work on this kind of stuff a lot, because we want to understand that a lot of the fear is just coming from what's going on in your head. And the more you can get grounded and clear on what's happening in your head, the easier it is for you to actually move through the fear. Like, understand what's causing it and then helping yourself get to the other side.

Wudan- Mhm. Mhm. Yes, there has to be that mental reckoning of where the fear comes from. Say more about the root cause of fear. How do you go about figuring out what that is, as a coach?

Nicole- Well, there's a couple of things. I always, for me, the first priority with any of my clients is always getting them to understand that they can move through the fear, rather than understanding the cause of it. Because my people are over thinkers. Um and I might—there might be a few listening. And the overthinkers want to analyze everything to death and like, just go at it like over and over and over again. And that can actually make it worse sometimes, because we feel stressed about the fact that we don't know the root cause. And so when you can just start to move through a fear, like that's really helpful. And then understanding the root cause when you're in a good place. And so it's not that I'm saying don't understand the root causes, because it is actually really important for us to start to identify those, and there are definitely specific ways that I help people with that. But if you actually start with moving through fear first like, that's the first piece of it, like getting skillful at like bouncing back up. Like, you had asked me does it feel less scary these days? And it doesn't. And like, I'm constantly having to follow my intuition into things that feel pretty terrifying. Like I'm working on another book, and it's still brings up fear for myself, like the things that I'm writing about, or how is it going to be to like, get an agent? Or how is it going to be to get another publisher to say yes to it? And so it's still feels scary, but I just understand that process. And then once you're moving through the fear, now you can start to identify the root. Like, what really caused you to feel that way? But I always want people to only do that once they're in a really good place consistently, because if they're doing it from that negative stress space, they're just only going to deepen the spiral down.

Wudan- Yes, psychologically, what you're saying makes a lot of sense, right? Like, make sure that you're safe, and you have your accommodations. And you feel okay about going there. So Nicole, I actually want to talk about like, the things you do in your business now that might set off the fear and adrenaline in your system. And I find you as somebody who is always launching new things, which is so impressive, because I do not have the same capacity. But I notice something really interesting in the language that you use. And I wonder if it's intentional. I always see you saying newsletters or on your Instagram stories, like 'I'm thinking about doing like....' fill in the blank. Something. Is that you running an experiment? Is that language intentional? Tell us about that.

Nicole- Yeah, oh, it's definitely intentional. And I find that for when I'm thinking about it, it just helps people also feel like they're part of my process. And it is. And because I really do think of my business is like a constant experiment, it is an experiment. Like, I'm thinking about this, which means, do you want that? And if you do great, and if nobody wants it, then I'm like, great. I'm not going to do that. And so it just helps me. Yeah, it just helps me find out because, you know, as a business owner, like, I want to make sure that the people who are my clients and my audience are getting what they need. And if they're not getting it, then I want to change it, you know, and so the thinking—yeah, so the I'm thinking—is an easy way to just actually test and find out what they want. And sometimes they're like, 'Yeah, I totally want it.' And sometimes it's like radio silence. I'm like, okay, got the answer.

Wudan- But even when you put it out on that on a platform like your newsletter or an Instagram story, that still is really brave.

Nicole- Yeah, I mean, I would say like social media and email newsletters are a very big learning curve for any entrepreneur. Like, I have a mastermind with new entrepreneurs as well. And we're always talking about that stuff. Because it does take practicel Like what you—so that used to scare me. Like, my first year in business, like social media was just this terrifying place. And so was my newsletter, because I'm like, 'All these people are reading what I'm writing.' But when I come into this place of like, it's just an experiment, it actually feels very easy for me. I'm like, 'Okay, we're just trying something out.' And we'll see how it goes. And the podcast's the same way. It's like, you put something out there, and you're like, I have no idea how it's going to be received. And you're like, 'Well, it's just an experiment. And if people like it, great, I'll do more of it. And if they don't like it great. Now I know. And I'm not going to do that as much.'

Wudan- Yeah, both of us have this experimentalist mindset. And I'm just curious, what is your process of setting up an actual experiment, independent from it being kind of a constant mindset?

Nicole- My process for an experiment? Interesting. I don't know. I—yeah.

Wudan- Yeah.

Nicole- I think I will say this. And so I'm going to go back a little bit in my career. So I wrote a fitness column for The Seattle Times for six years. And during that time—and I didn't know this is what I was getting into when they asked me to do it. So I had left the paper. And a year or two later, they said, 'Hey, we want you to write this weekly fitness column. And we think it'll work if you just try new things.' And I was like, 'Sure, sounds great.' I was—at first I was like, 'Well, I'm a yoga teacher. Like, I'm not really a fitness person.' And they're like, 'Oh, that counts.' And I was like, okay, great. Like, that'll be fine. So I just started going to fitness classes, like all the time. And it really taught me to be a beginner again. Like it really, really helped me because there was just no way—I tried over 300 things when I was writing that column. Like, there's no way you can be an expert at 300 different types of physical activities. And so I just learned there's always an intro class. There's always like a way that they bring new people into any kind of activity. And I learned that there's always like a step-by-step to learn it. And so when you can really just dial in on, 'I just need to learn how to do it.' And I think about this in entrepreneurship, because there's so many different skill sets in entrepreneurship, that if I don't know how to do it, all I have to do is figure out that beginner mentality and to just try it until I work it out. And I think that is just like a valuable skill in life. Because when we're kids, we are always trying new things. We think it's super fun, like learning is part of the process. And then you get to be an adult and you're supposed to be like a master at something, and then that can really narrow life for you. You're like I can only do the things I'm already good at. Instead of thinking well, what could I get better at? What could I try? And that's why I think I love running a business, because there's constantly something that's pushing me and challenging me to learn and to grow. And so it's fun for me now to be like, 'Okay, sometimes it's not fun, but most of the time, it's fun.' Like sometimes I'm like, 'Alright, we're gonna try this now and see how it goes. And if it flops again, now I'm like, alright, be a scientist didn't work. Let's try something else.'

Wudan- Yes, yeah. I don't have a particular formula either for how I designed my experiments. But I do think about the SMART framework when it comes to goal setting, which is specific, measurable, achievable...what's the r again?

Nicole- Results?

Wudan- Yes. And time bound, right? So usually, for my experiments, I will be like, 'I have a month to figure out—I have a month to play around with this one thing.' Last year, I played an experiment, because everyone was like, 'Nobody's hiring for freelancers. And the rates that they're paying for freelancers totally sucks.' And I was like, 'Okay, well, I'm in a place in my business where I can not earn as much money as I want. So what if I only take on assignments that meet the following criteria?' And guess what, like, there were still assignments, and I kind of just filed that away as evidence that, you know, what I wanted was out there. And it also made me like really specifically hone in on the clients who could, you know—they were a better match for me in terms of what I needed to earn. So yeah, I don't know, I think experiments are very fun. I love when you say, 'I'm thinking about doing so-and-so.' Normally, I just say, 'I'm gonna do this." And then I get scared a little bit. But I also notice, like, what else comes up for me, when I kind of commit publicly in some way. Like, even if it's to a friend that like a thing is about to happen.

Nicole- I agree with you. I mean, committing can be like the source of why we don't do things. But when we can get to the side of like, 'I'm committing to it.' Like, that's really helpful for me. Like, I'm working on my next book. And I was actually feeling like I was kind of floundering a bit with it. In my previous books, like I had a lot of deadlines. I don't know, I'm a journalist at heart, right? Like, I need a deadline to get things done. But the case I'm in right now is I'm writing a proposal for an agent. And so there's no deadline, like it's just whenever I'm finished, I'm going to get it to her. And I was feeling pretty stuck on it at the end of last year. And so for accountability, I signed up for a writing class. And it's been amazing. Like it has lit so much fire under me. And then there's people there. And so it's so scary to say things out loud to people, but I find that that actually makes the difference. Like for me, an accountability will totally move me so much faster and farther than if I am sitting alone in my house like trying to work on a book. And this is what I always say, with all of my clients too, for so many of them, some of the things that we're doing at the beginning, in particular, like they know what to do, but they haven't had the accountability to make sure they actually do it. And then once they actually do it, they start to gather even more momentum. And then we can really get deeper into the work of clarity and understanding really what the biggest goals they have that they want to put into the world. And then really shifting their identity to have those goals happen. And it's a much more powerful process that way.

Wudan- Yeah, I do find it so interesting that once you commit to something, and if your body and your mind respond in a positive way, right, that's so informative, and it has that like insane propellant quality. I feel like with my coaching clients, I'm like, 'Just do the thing.' And then they're stuck in fear, right? And sometimes I get there too. And then the question becomes: What experiment will I run now to gather some evidence for myself that this is safe? And then getting them to a point of commitment is the desired goal because there's so much power once you're there.

Nicole- Totally. And the other thing I also always have to remind myself and remind my clients is that action is the biggest teacher. And when we're in that fear of failure, what it usually does is it takes us out of action. But you can't learn anything from inaction. And so when you can actually start to be like, alright, 'I don't have to do a big action, but I could just have to do one thing.' And once you can start to do that one thing it'll teach you, what's the next thing that you have to do. And if we can just get over the idea that we're failing, you can just say, 'Okay, I'm not—it's not about me, I'm just going to try it.'

Wudan- Mhm.

Nicole- And then that action is going to tell you what's really happening. And that's, I think, the most helpful thing to do.

Wudan- Yes. And none of those—like that first step doesn't have to be perfect.

Nicole- Definitely not. And it probably won't be, especially if you're doing something you've never done before. You're not going to know how to do it. And so you have to say, 'Okay, I'm just going to try one of this and then try this.' And this is why it this goes back to what I talked about at the beginning, but feeling good. Because we're not inspired to do things when we feel bad. When we feel bad, we just sit on the couch and we're just like stressed out, we like watching Netflix, and we can't deal. But when you feel good and your like nervous system is regulated, you can start to take the action steps and then really start to see what's next for yourself.

Wudan- Yes, it takes so, so much to overcome that little fear gremlin in our heads.

Nicole- It really does. It does.

Wudan- Well Nicole, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful conversation. I do urge all of our listeners who are thinking about doing something big to just do one small thing and see how it goes. You're thinking about doing a thing. Run an experiment.

Nicole- Absolutely, I'm on board with that.

Wudan- Thanks to Nicole for coming on the show. You can follow her on Instagram at Nicoletsong or learn more about her work at Nicoletsong.com. Nicole is offering what she calls a five-day Morning Routine Challenge, which will help you build morning habits that last, so you wake up with more energy and excitement every day. It sounds like something I should use. Because I wake up always tired. So it is a free five-day challenge for career women of color or anyone really to design the life you love, step into your power, and secure the sense of worthiness you crave. Our Patreon members are already discussing this episode on our psychologically safe and inclusive Slack channel. So join us. Sign up anytime at patreon.com/TWCpod. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Writer's Co-op. This season is written, hosted, and executive produced by me, Wudan Yan. The show's producer is Margaret Osborne and our editor is Susan Valot.