The Discovery Call

SEASON 5, EPISODE 6:

Wudan's love for discovery calls probably surprises very few of you: She loves connecting with others and enjoy learning about how she can bring her skills to help a new client. She gets really excited about these calls because they smell like possibilities. Lately, we've been getting a ton of questions about LOIs, discovery calls, and landing new clients. So today we're talking about how to nail the discovery call. We run through how to weed clients out so you’re not wasting your precious, unpaid time to take these calls, plus how to best prepare for them – yes, they really are like mini freelance job interviews – and beyond.

Full Transcript Below:

Wudan Yan- Hey everyone, and welcome to The Writers' Co-Op.

Jenni Gritters- If you're just discovering us now, we are an anti-hustled business podcast and online community for freelance creatives, mostly writers.

Wudan Yan- And we are your co-hosts. I'm Wudan Yan.

Jenni Gritters- And I'm Jenni Gritters.

Wudan Yan- What's up, Jenni? How's it going?

Jenni Gritters- Well, we are recording this episode in June. And I'm really busy. I feel like I'm just like sprinting to the finish line. My maternity leave basically starts in about eight or nine days. So finishing up all my work, running edits on a ton of stories. Yeah, it's been busy. Listeners are going to hear this episode later in the month. You'll will be hearing this in July. So I hope I've had a baby by then, because I'm very pregnant. But for now, I am just hunkered down. I'm still pretty sick, like I have been whole pregnancy, and I'm just trying to survive. So what about you, Wudan?

Wudan Yan- Can I be honest? Because I feel like I'm also drowning. It's been a time. I've hopped over pretty hard into the world of producing narrative podcasts. And let's just say there's a learning curve, which is awesome. And it excites me. And there's also been a ton of other holdover work, largely magazine pieces that I need to take care of. And also I need to hike like 15 miles a week. I know that's a weird thing to complain about. But it's, it's another project. It's another thing. So mind and body are tired. The hiking is amazing. It's very rejuvenating, and I'm looking forward to my thru hike, the end is near for reaching the start line injury free. When you're in your 30s, the bars are incredibly low, I feel.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, you're like is my body work? There's a lot of sprinting going on, I think on both of our ends. It does feel like recording these last few episodes is sort of a milestone for us. So I do think also, that is just kind of the vibe right now for a lot of freelancers. I know. It's just a busy time.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, it's the time to try and do it all.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, have we mentioned that that's a lie? It's impossible to do at all.

Yeah, and it's super hard. It's okay for it to be hard.

Agreed. There's just a toll, I think, for taking on this much work. Many new things. So I think there's a cost benefit analysis. I actually tweeted about this the other day. I had a very lucrative month in May. But yeah, there's always a cost benefit analysis to what you have to take on when you take on a lot of work. So Wudan, on that note, let's dig into our episode today. What are we talking about?

We are talking about something I love so very much. And that is discovery calls. Jenni, tell me. How do you feel about discovery calls?

I mean, I love that you love discovery calls. That feels very on brand for you. I love discovery calls less than you do. But I actually think the process of finding clients is one of the most invigorating parts of my business. So I'm on board with this. Yeah, you and I are maybe unique in this way that we like this part of finding work.

I feel like I am abnormally excited about discovery calls because I love possibility. I also see discovery calls as a way to start building a new relationship, which means that I more or less like it for extremely extroverted reasons.

Yeah, that makes sense to me. I used to be really obsessed with looking for jobs, even when I had a full time job. I'm like one of those people who, like some people, you know, scroll through Zillow to look at houses, I was always looking at jobs. And that part of freelancing has always been really fun for me. And I think you're right. It's like the possibility, the newness, something might change. I love that part. I'm kind of addicted to that part. But I'm also more of an introvert than you are. So I think for me, some of this can be really exhausting. I'll talk about that more later. But it's a mix for me. Like there are definitely benefits. Before that, before we dive into how to nail a discovery call and talk about how we do it, we should also probably define what that is, right?

Wudan Yan- Yeah, what a good place to start. So in the process of finding a new clients, you'll likely send out a bunch of emails for gigs or companies you'd like to work with. And it's likely that those clients are also doing the same with freelance talents. They're on the hunt for good contractors. So in the discovery phase, you'll likely have a few exchanges, often by email to start, to feel out if you're a good fit or not together, and then maybe it'll make sense to hop on the phone to talk about a project that the client would hire you for. Or more generally, for future work with that client.

Jenni Gritters- Right. You can call this phone call a discovery call, which is what we're calling it today. You will hear some people call it an introductory call. It usually comes after an LOI, a letter of intent, which is usually an email. Some people will even just refer to this as like part of the onboarding process. Just it's the part where you get on the phone with the client. It all basically means the same thing. It's just the point of connection that comes after you've introduced yourself over email, usually. So to me, it feels like the first date. Like, you've been messaging back and forth for a few weeks, and then you want to see each other in person. We always use the dating analogy, and I think it applies here very closely.

Wudan Yan- Yeah. So if we're going to play along with the dating analogy, getting to the discovery call meeting up is a pretty good step to get to, would you agree?

Jenni Gritters- Totally. It's like getting on Zoom, or getting on the phone with a client is a big deal. It means you're both mutually interested. I mean, the time spent on that call is an investment. It's usually not paid on either side, they're not getting anything, you're not getting anything. But it's clear that you're both interested. And it's basically the client saying, like I'm game to bring you on, let's talk about the details. I want to know more about you like, you know, there's some interest there. And you're going to talk about how you can both help each other. So I think of it as like an interview for a freelance job. And I basically treat it as such in the prep and the way I carry myself.

Wudan Yan- A discovery call is where we first see that mutuality that you and I talked so much about, right? You can help a client out with a service, and they can help you such that the work caters to your values, or provides you a way to grow your career or something else.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, exactly. So we have outlined the path to the discovery call, I think very roughly. But Wudan, let's talk about how you even decide to invest that time in the first place.

Wudan Yan- And I think what I really hear you asking is how to vet a client before I use my precious working hour time for a call by email. So I will say at this point in my career, more people come to me asking if they can hire me, rather than me seeking clients out. If the client is not immediately upfront about the scope of work and what they can pay, I'm going to ask that by email. I'll say, can you share your budget for a project of this scope? Basically, I want to make sure the projects they have in mind are within the services that I actually offer, or our services I want to begin to offer and that we are aligned from a values perspective, and that I can get paid the rates that I need.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah. As always, if you want to hear more about values, and figuring out what your values are for your business, they can change over time, we urge you to listen to episode one of this podcast, like literally season one, episode one where we talked about that. We also talk about it in our business planning course. But it is really key to this.

Wudan Yan- Yeah. So I think on a bare bones level, I am pretty on the hunt for obvious red flags. But what about you, Jenni? What do you look

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, I'm also pretty picky when it comes to who gets a phone call. I'm especially because my schedule right now is limited. Like I'm not taking phone calls more than a couple days of week. So typically, I am looking for some of those more like soft skills and tells. Like, I think I can tell from the tone of an email pretty quickly if I want to work with someone, because like you said, Wudan, they're giving me details. Like, that's really important. If someone's hedging, or they're asking for an hour of my time without being able to give me details. I will say that's usually a no go for me like I really value directness. A lot of my gigs also come from referrals. So I'll typically have a little bit of information from a friend or a freelancer about the client that helps a little bit for making that decision about whether to meet with them. And I actually think even just like the process of setting up the call tells me how organized they are. Like, do they have a Calendly? Are their assistants involved in? Is there a ton of back and forth? Is it taking me a ton of time just to get on their calendar? That's pretty telling. Another big thing I'm usually asking about via email is timeline. Like I'm pretty booked out about six weeks in advance. And so especially right now I have leave coming up. I'm not really so interested in things that need to happen right now. So if people need help right now, I'm not the person who should talk to them. And I don't want to get on the phone to figure that out. I want that to be something that is revealed in email. So basically, I'm just trying to figure out how we can not waste each other's time.

Wudan Yan- Totally. What kind of red flags do you like to look for?

I mean, micromanagement to me is just like, ew. Disorganization also big turnoff. That's what I'm looking to avoid. So I'm just looking for someone who values my expertise and who is organized. A lack of transparency, like I said, is also a big no. I want that directness upfront. Do you have any others to add to that list?

Wudan Yan- I get really peeved when clients say that they pay competitively or use language like "of course this is paid." Like yes, we are professionals, we require compensation for our services. Why is this framed as an afterthought? The other thing I'll say is that I talk a lot with my colleagues, like a lot of gossip. And this is the kind of benefit I find and being a bunch of different Freelancer groups. I do something still similar to what I think you mentioned, Jenni, where I'll ask, Hey, has anyone here worked with X? I'd love to hear about what your experience was like. And I think I've said this before. But yeah, the bar for me is really high to clear to get to discovery call. I love gossip. Give me the tea. I want to know what it's like to work with folks. I want to go into things with eyes wide open.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, none of this surprises me. And I'm with you. Right? Like, again, this is like dating.

Wudan Yan- Yeah. All right. So Jenni, you vetted the client, basically over email. What's next? Is there anything you do in advance of your disco call

Jenni Gritters- Disco calls! I love that. Let's call them that. So the other thing I'm doing is I definitely want to get a sense for what the client's needs are before we get on a call. So if they're looking for someone to run their newsletter, for example, I might ask them to send me a sample of what they're looking for: something they've developed in the past, maybe a link to their newsletter, if I can't find it. If they're looking for blogs, I'm going to scour their webpage. Usually, as a writer or an editor, I'm being asked to build something, sometimes I'm being asked to consult on something. So I want to know what their current bar or expectation is, because that also helps me with pricing, understanding capacity, all of that. So I am looking at like, what might this work entail? What about you? What happens for you in that research side of things?

Wudan Yan- Yeah, not only am I looking at what the clients done, I'm looking at what I've done. I take stock of what I've done, so that it can best serve the client. So I think about all the skills I could offer, which sometimes I may not see immediately, because maybe that client reached out to me for service X. But I also offer service Y which they might also benefit from, and I think about all the prior type of work that I've done for clients. So I don't have a rate sheet or anything of that sort. But I'll jot down what I'm comfortable doing based on my prior experience.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah. And love that. I do that too. I actually have a sticky note on my computer, usually, before these calls, where I'll jot down some details about what I want to make sure I share in the call what my ideal situation is. So what kind of work? What pay? What the timeline would be. It helps me to have it in front of my face, so I can't renege on it. I also don't have a rate sheet or a pitch deck, in most cases. Occasionally, I would build out a proposal for a client after conversation. But at that point, like for this discovery call, I don't usually have enough info to even make a pitch deck, right? So basically, I want to know what I want to get out of the call, I want to underline that for people, because this is where the mutuality comes in. And I'm constantly coaching people on this. A lot of times people are going into the call, and they want to know about the client's needs. And that's great, but like what about your own needs? So even if the client reached out with one assignment, there might be extra stuff in the mix that they need help with. And that's where I might offer consulting, or I might ask to bundle two or three assignments together to make relationship worth it. I actually just did this, they were like, we can pay $400 for a 500-word post. That's fine with me, it's going to take me 45 minutes to write. But I would actually like to do three of those at once. So I'm usually kind of going into it with a little bit of a pitch. I've shared this before. But this is often when I bring up that I do consulting. So if someone comes to me asking for help, and the gig isn't quite right, and we're on the phone, I might still see potential to help them in a different way. And that's what I bring to the call, right? Like what is editorial consulting look like? How might I be able to help? So yeah, mutuality, I think matters during this step. Like what do you need out of the relationship? Just as much as what did they need?

Wudan Yan- Yeah. And swinging the services and the clients needs to something different? Like, I do this quite a bit also. And I would say it's wildly successful.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, tell us a success story. We haven't done storytime yet. So tell me when this worked for you.

Wudan Yan- So last winter, I thought I had a great idea for a podcast series. Actually, I don't know why that's in the past tense. I still think I have a great idea for a podcast series. And I got connected to somebody who runs narrative series at a production network. And so I sent that idea by email. I got like a no with why. And they also said, Hey, let's talk about what makes a show for us successful. Let's make time for a call. So that editor and I hopped on the phone, we talked about exactly that. What was supposed to be on the menu. But before we got off, I mentioned I wanted to do more stuff in podcasting, generally, either as a fact-checker or a producer. And a month later, they reached out to me for a producer job that I am currently executing on.

Jenni Gritters- Ooh, I love this because it's also a very like, Ask and You Shall Receive story. And that's what we're always saying to people. Folks don't know what kind of work you want to do unless you say it out loud. And I think that experience tracks for me as well. Like they might not need this thing right now. But that doesn't mean that they won't need my help with it down the line. This happens to me all the time where people circle back, you got to share your ideal setup.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, I'm glad I said something. Yeah. Jenni, tell us a discovery call success story.

Jenni Gritters- I think I have a good recent example. I talked during In our episode about slow seasons, about how I had to solicit some more work, and a friend of mine connected me via email with a friend of hers, who runs a coaching company. So I had mentioned, I think, on social media, that I wanted to start creating content for coaching organizations. I'm obviously a coach. I just finished my coaching certification. And I'm a writer, so it felt like a good crossover on my skills. But it wasn't really sure exactly what kind of content that might mean and where it might land me. So I emailed back and forth with this friend of a friend for maybe like a week, we sent probably two or three emails. She shared that she needed a series of profiles written about her company's clients. I shared my timeline, she shared her budget, all of that was a fit. So we hopped on the call. And after 20 minutes, it was like, so clear that she was just a good person, you know, when you get those good vibes with the same priorities, same vision for the project, she trusted me, she was not micromanaging. We had a similar style of working. Like we wanted to do this on kind of a quick timeline, there was no BS. So I asked her to send me a proposal after we hopped off the call just with information about like, what would the themes of these profiles be? Do you have any examples from your website? What timeline do you want? What would the pay be? She sent the proposal via email the next day. And it solidified that yes, this was a good fit. It was good timing for me. So I would say this is like the ideal discovery call vibe. We did end up moving the timeline just slightly, like that was the only request I had based on the proposal. And the vibes were just like, so good from the beginning. So it was a total win-win.

Wudan Yan- This sounds really ideal. Jenni, tell us what about when you have to pitch something new that the client didn't initially propose? Do you have an example of that?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, a good example of this is a startup that approached me. Honestly, it was like a year ago asking if I wanted to work for them full time, in an editorial capacity. I did not want to work for them full time in an editorial capacity. But I told them, I was happy to hop on the phone, because I had a sense that what they were building was something I could help with. So this is a case where like, the details were not actually clear. I was kind of gambling a little bit. But I thought, hey, it's worth it to shoot my shot. So in my email to the founder, I explained, hey, this is what it typically looks like if I come into consult. Like this is my hourly rate. This is how many hours I have available to do that kind of work this month, next month. This is what I've helped build in the past. It was like a mini proposal, sort of so I said like, No, I can't help you with your thing. Here's the thing I could do. The founder took a look at it. And he was the one who was like, yes, Greenlight, let's have a conversation. So we had a good chat, he passed me on to the person in the marketing department, which I will say sometimes this happens, like there's like, multiple tiers of the discovery call, right? So then I had a disco call (I'm gonna call it that now) with her. And we agreed to some terms together and translated those into a contract. So that's where it got practical. And I will say in this case, I just made sure to set a lot of hard boundaries around the time because they kind of wanted someone full time and I was not going to do that. So we were pretty clear about this is how many hours, this is the pay, this is the scope. But yeah, that's a case where they wanted one thing. We landed on a situation that was different, but I still think like mutually beneficial. And I've kept them as a client, I now write for them, like I built their editorial structure. And now I just work inside it as a freelancer. So it has been ultimately a win for me.

Wudan Yan- Your story shows us that the process doesn't really end at the discovery call either. There's also this whole onboarding process and the following up after the discovery call, not to mention.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, totally. So especially for projects, I would say that don't start immediately or like in your case, there's a gap between the conversation and then needing your services. There's just a little bit of time in between.

Wudan Yan- How do you like to remember to follow up?

Jenni Gritters- That's a good question. This is one of those practical questions we get asked a lot. I use Boomerang, it's a Gmail extension. It's free. It boomerangs the email back to you, as a reminder, so I'll schedule usually my thank you note, like I usually send a thank you note after a discovery call, thank you email, just like reiterating some of the specific terms I might have outlined. And then I boomerang their email to about two weeks out, depending on the conversation, maybe a month, if we've talked about something specific that might happen like a month later. What about you?

Wudan Yan- I use something similar called Mail Track, which not only tells me if my emails are read, or if it's a hot conversation, which means that the recipient is probably opening it many times or forwarding. But it also tells me if an email that I sent is extremely neglected, which gives me information that I ought to follow up.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, that is a good tool. I have Mail Trak too. So I will say I have landed gigs that are like years down the line after a discovery call too. For me it's not wasted effort to meet someone who might be aligned just because you never know what they might need down the line. So I think about six months ago, I worked on a project where we been going back and forth for over a year, and it was just never the right time for either of us. So, you know, I don't think I consider these things a loss, but just that, like there can be a long lead time, like they would check in if they needed help. And then I was busy. And then I checked in, and then they were busy. And back and forth, and back and forth. So I will say, too, I guess the other answer is that sometimes the follow up can be more intuitive. Like, I'll put these contacts on what I call the bench, which is a spreadsheet that contains possible exciting future things. And then when I have a slow season, I look at that list and I might reach out then. It's not always two weeks out, sometimes it might be six months out when I have a little bit more space in my schedule.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, I call that the intrigue list of like opportunities I'm intrigued by but don't have capacity to do it right now. I think most of the time, though, if you're on a discovery call for an assignment that's immediate, that client will likely hopefully get back to you super soon. And if they give you a certain date by email that they say they'll send something by, hold them to that. Or, you know, take the initiative and check in then. It's another good sign of them being a good client.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a good red flag for you if they don't send it on time. But we are all human, right? Like we're all juggling a lot of balls, especially freelancers.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, so many balls.

Jenni Gritters- There's also no guarantee, I would say, that any single person can remember all the things. So like reminders and check ins, I just want to say, that's not annoying. That's in the scope of a professional interaction. So it's okay to remind a client. You don't need to remind them about your proposal every two days. But it's okay to make yourself front of mind for that client if time has passed, and you haven't heard from them.

Wudan Yan- Agreed. So Jenni, what else have you learned about discovery calls over your years, and how to ace them?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, at the beginning, I think I had like, an addiction to these new gigs, right? Like, I really loved the feeling of getting on that discovery call. And they're like, Oh, you sound so great. We need your help. Like, maybe this is a people pleasing symptom. But I think early on in my freelance career, I just took too many of these calls without ironing out details via email first, so then I get on the call and realize that like, oh, they want someone who does like PR, and literally, I do not do that. Or, oh, they want someone to develop a series of blogs for them, but they're gonna pay $100 per blog, and that's not gonna work for me. Oh, they're looking for someone full time, or even part time. And I don't want that. So I'm just a lot more careful now, I think, about getting all those terms and sort of details in email before we get started.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, even a few years ago, I'm now thinking of a discovery call I had where it was an assignment for a new client that I was really psyched about. And then by email, we didn't talk at all about rates. But now I have learned at the time, I had no frickin clue.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, what happened?

Wudan Yan- Well, of course, rates came up on the call, and the client straight up asked for my rate. And I did my homework, at least I did my homework, if nothing else, I asked around in my freelance groups, what others had gotten paid. And then I added like 75% more. I'm like grinning like the devil emoji right now. And let's just say I was pretty terrified. But I did the thing where I put my rate down on a piece of paper in front of me during the call to keep me accountable. And the client was like, I think I can swing that. Let me check.

Jenni Gritters- I love that. It's a power move.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, I think it's pretty important to know your rates, even if it doesn't come up by email. So sometimes by email, the client can ask for your hourly rate. But if you want to move to a project rate based on the discussion you have with a client during the discovery call, be ready to quote that during the call too. So write those rates down before the call, have them in front of you. And if it matters, you know, for a first project, especially that trial project, that price shouldn't be high.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, totally. I think people are often surprised by this tactic. But both of us tend to take what we see like in this industry, and I don't know about you Wudan, but I pad whatever I think the going rate is by like 20% to account for any uncertainties for an initial project. So like, you just don't know what you're gonna get with this first project, which is usually the trial project is the result of a discovery call gone well, right? Maybe the editing process is like horrible, and I didn't budget for it. I just think that like extra percent covers unknowns and newness. But I also think if you don't feel comfortable pushing that initial rate, having a trial project also puts that initial project in a container and you can renegotiate later. So you know, this all goes back to value, which we've talked about in past seasons as well. But just like knowing these numbers in your head before you go into the conversation is really important.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, I have rates for trial projects. And then after that period after the assignment has been edited, or whatever, when my scope of work ends. I'll go back to the Client and come back with a different rate for more regular or one off work moving forward.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, me too. I often do that, right? So it's a trial for a reason. Like, I'm gonna see if this works for me, you're gonna see if this works for you. And then we will circle back. Again, like dating metaphors. Right? So I think the bottom line here is that a discovery call is an opportunity to make a new connection with a potential client, it can pay off long term or short term. Either way, it's not a waste of time. For the most part, as long as you know that the details are likely to work for you, in some way, shape, or form.

Wudan Yan- Yes, nailing a discovery call involves getting clear on the features of a project by email before the call, hopefully, and then putting in the legwork to see what kind of content this place produces and thinking about what you need to make the gig work for you.

Jenni Gritters- Yep. And then you get on that call on Zoom or on the phone. And part of this is listening to your gut about whether the opportunity is right for you. You can get bold. If the scenario doesn't seem quite right, and you pitch your ideal scenario, I would say it's very normal to be completely scared during that process. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. And then of course, you follow up and then you get the terms nailed down in writing. phone conversation does not count as a contract, do you want it in words in an email in a contract, and then you don't want to start your project until you have those terms written down. But there is definitely a process of translating what you've talked about on the phone into some kind of written document.

Wudan Yan- Okay, that's out. We've talked a lot about discovery calls. And I hope if you're listening you found this episode helpful. If you're a Patreon all access member, which you can join at anytime at patreon.com/TWCpod. We have a tip sheet on how to ace your discovery call. Pin it on your wall, put it somewhere visible. It's a checklist to basically go through before you pick up the phone or talk on zoom with a client.

Jenni Gritters- Yup, love it. Okay, well Wudan, we are almost done with the season. But I will talk to you next time.

Wudan Yan- Talk soon. Bye, Jenni.

Jenni Gritters- Bye!

Season five of The Writers' Co-Op is made possible by you, our listeners. Thank you. The season's co-hosts are me, Jenni Gritters and Wudan Yan. Our producer is Jen Monnier and our editor is Susan Valot.