From Journalism to Money with Maya Lau
SEASON 8, EPISODE 5
Typically, when you strike out on your own and launch a freelance business, you play it safe and start with what you know. If you previously worked at a marketing agency, you might offer services like copywriting and content marketing. You might target clients in that niche. After all, that’s where the bulk of your professional network — your potential first clients — may be.
But what if you want to build a freelance business unrelated to your subject matter expertise? How do you determine what your business wants to be? In other words: How do you think expansively, past the industries and work that you know?
In this episode, Wudan talks with Maya Lau.
Maya works at the intersection of media and research, having pivoted from her career as a newspaper reporter. She is the host of Other People’s Pockets, where she interviews people about how much money they make, how they feel about their finances, and if they’ve figured out anything about money that the rest of us haven’t. Maya also has her own business, Anza Research, where she investigates companies and the people who run them for investment firms.
Wudan and Maya dive more into how to leverage existing skills and interests when switching industries.
Full Transcript Below:
Wudan Yan- Hi everyone, and welcome back to The Writers' Co-op. I am your host and executive producer, Wudan Yan. If you find yourself listening to this episode, welcome! You've joined us in the middle of Season 8, which is called "The Year of Expansive Thinking." On this season, we are talking about how to think a little differently about what's possible in your freelance business. So far, we've discussed a lot about the mindset needed to not only dream big, but make big moves in your freelance business. So check out those earlier episodes out if you haven't yet already. Now, we are pivoting to the part of the season where I get to interview people who have approached their freelance business a little less conventionally. So if that interests you, be sure to subscribe to the show wherever you listen to your podcasts. When we think about building a freelance business, we're often looking at our educational or work background and building off of that. For instance, if you spent years on staff, in marketing or in international aid, who then move on to become freelance might build their businesses as a content marketer or a consultancy that focuses on humanitarian issues, respectively. But what if you want to build a freelance business that seems unrelated to your subject matter expertise? How do you determine what it is that your business wants to be? And then how do you move in that slightly unconventional direction? In other words: Really, how do you think expansively past the industries and work experience that you know? My guest this episode is Maya Lau. Maya works at the intersection of media and research, having pivoted from her career as a newspaper reporter. She is the host of "Other People's Pockets," where she interviews people about how much money they make, how they feel about their finances, and if they've figured out anything about money that the rest of us haven't. As a side note, I love this show. The theme of financial transparency is very much so in line with what I've preached here on The Writers' Co-op. Maya also runs her own business called Anza Research, where she investigates companies and the people who run them for investment firms. Basically, her world is money. Maya is a former investigative reporter at the LA Times who covered the criminal justice system. Before we dive into today's episode, did you know that we have an online community for The Writers' Co-op? If you're looking to do big things in your freelance business this year, or just crave ongoing support, join us! Hundreds of members are sharing best practices and tips when it comes to running their freelance business. I can't overstate how important it is to have a psychologically-safe space to bounce ideas around. So sign up today at the All-Access level on Patreon to get a link to join that's at patreon.com/TWCpod. Here is my conversation with Maya. Hi, Maya, welcome to The Writers Co-op. It's a pleasure to have you here.
Maya Lau- Hi, thanks for having me.
Wudan- Well, I'm so excited to hear about how you went from journalism and writing to all the things that you do as a freelance business owner. So to start, our usual question is: Tell us who you are and what your business is about.
Maya Lau- My name is Maya Lau. I'm a podcaster. I'm also a financial investigative researcher. So I have a business. It's called Anza research. It's just me. And it's where I do kind of qualitative investigative research in the investment world. And so I have investment clients who are trying to research various companies for the purposes of potentially investing in them. And they want to know about the people behind them, often, you know, who it's run by. Are there any issues in the company? Are there things that you would find out by actually talking to people and not just looking at the numbers? So there are other people who work with the investment firms I work with that do more of the qualitative stuff of running financial models. I do more of the qualitative stuff of really talking to people and kind of looking at it as a journalist would. Like, what are the lawsuits? What's the scuttlebutt? What are people talking about that might not be evident in the numbers? And so I do that. I also host a podcast called "Other People's Pockets," and that is on the other kind of end of finance. Not high finance, but personal finance. And there I interview people about how much money they make and how they make it, how they feel about their money. And it's a little bit more of financial voyeurism.
Wudan- Yes, I love "Other People's Pockets." I don't know if I've ever plugged it on this show. But you know, I know the show is currently on hiatus. But even the first season is so fascinating and really goes into a lot of the similar themes that I explore here on The Writers Co-op about just financial transparency. So yeah, if you're listening and tuning in, please also go check out "Other People's Pockets.: I do love that even though these two ventures feel very different, they all converge on this theme of money.
Maya Lau- Yeah, totally. And I, I was never a financial journalist. But that was the direction I wanted to move in. Around the time I was leaving journalism, I sort of, I guess the last thing that would have kept me in traditional newspaper journalism was if I somehow got a job investigating white collar crime or something. I was always really interested in money, in business, and just didn't have the chance to really make that my focus. But yeah, so I, I am interested in money. And I think it's just I mean, it sounds obvious to say that it's this thread that runs through our lives that can control so much of our lives. And yet, we often feel—I mean, I even have people tell me, I, I actually had somebody...so he works for this big investment firm, say, like, "oh, gosh, like, I need so much help with my personal finances. I have no idea what's going on." So even people who work in finance don't necessarily know what's going on with their household finances, which I find so interesting.
Wudan- Well, it's kind of like in high school when I took micro and macro economics. And it's like, the things are not the same.
Maya Lau- Yeah. No.
Wudan- Not, not, not withstanding personal finance, which is a—
Maya Lau- Right
Wudan- —different beast of its own that doesn't—
Maya Lau- Right
Wudan- —even get addressed in school. Well, I love this. And Maya, take us back a little bit. I want you to talk about your career trajectory. What made you decide to want to be a journalist? What drew you to the profession?
Maya Lau- Yeah, I was drawn to it, because I realized that I really love asking questions. I at first wanted to be a lawyer. I thought that that was the path I was on. I had taken the LSAT. And then I served in the Peace Corps in Senegal, kind of as a—I knew that I really wanted to live abroad again. I thought maybe humanitarian aid was more the area that I wanted to be in. And I didn't want to go to law school. So and I knew that, like, if I was gonna go to law school, I had to postpone that somehow. So when I was in the Peace Corps, I was writing a lot for my blog. I was reading a lot. I was just feeling like, wait a second. What if I threw out all of my plans and tried to become a writer? And so I did that. And I was able to, long story, but I was able to get a job at the New York Times as a news assistant. And that was my first experience in journalism at all. I didn't have any school newspaper experience, nothing. But yeah, what drew me to it was this realization that I think I'm just a really curious person. I'm curious about a lot of different topics. I tend to not really be curious about something for many years on end. Like, I tend to be like, I'm super into this for a few years. And then I want to move on. And I kind of realized, oh, I think that's what a journalist does. You know, you don't have to commit to any one thing. You can have a lifetime of living different places, you know, being paid to learn. So that's what really drew me to it. And I don't really know why I wanted to be a writer. I mean, I know that I liked reading and I liked some aspects of writing. But writing was actually always extremely difficult for me. I think you're sometimes drawn toward the thing that's a real challenge for you. So that was a thing for me, like overcoming this. And even when I was an established journalist at the LA Times, the—I don't know why it is this way—but at the LA Times, people call themselves staff writers instead of like...you could also call yourself a reporter. But on my business card, it said: Maya Lau, Staff Writer. And I would always look at that and be like, I can't believe I write for a living. That's so crazy. So anyway, that is what drew me to journalism.
Wudan- So from the New York Times to the LA Times, what did you see yourself becoming an expert in?
Maya Lau- I ended up feeling like I really became an expert in a certain type of investigation, I would say. I really thought that I wanted to be more of like a writers' writer, writing features and writing New Yorker articles and stuff like that, because of course, that's what you read as just a random person on this Earth. But then, the first actual reporter job I got after the New York Times was at the Shreveport Times in Louisiana, and it was as a crime reporter. And one of my bosses there was an investigative reporter. And just the way she thought, the way she would interview me about my own story as I was working on it, the questions she suggested, it just really tapped into this interest I think I already had and really having a more investigative angle to things. So I ended up covering the criminal justice system and law enforcement generally for almost my entire career. I went from there to The Advocate based in Baton Rouge and I covered law enforcement. I covered prisons and met several different police departments and then to the LA Times, where I covered the LA County Sheriff's Department. I also covered different things , but I would say criminal justice was something I became an expert in, or you know...[inaudible] like. I wouldn't call myself an expert. But that was the thing that I spent the most time in. But it started with crime reporting, you know. It didn't start because I was a little girl and like, wanted to visit jails and prisons all day. You know, like, it was just that that was kind of what was needed. And then criminal justice is this also this window into everything else. Like the law and life and death scenarios, and crises and politics and so many different things. So, yeah, but I think that I kind of just honed this way of looking at stories with an investigative lens. And that's kind of what I found came easiest to me and felt like my strengths sort of broke through.
Wudan- That makes so much sense. And so you're at the LA Times, and I mean, we've talked about this, but it was after the LA Times, you decided it was time for a change? How did you realize you were at an inflection point? And what were the signs that it was time to move on?
Maya Lau- Well, it kind of all goes back to money. Because I was always frustrated with what I made as a reporter. But I knew—I wasn't shocked by it. I very much knew the industry. I knew that journalism was somewhat of a sinking ship. But for many years, it was like, that's fine, because I'm a young, single person, you know, doing the work. And then it just really started to grate on me. I got married. I was living in LA, which is a very expensive city. We eventually had a kid. And the weekly, monthly finances was always stressful for me. I really tried to get better at my personal finances. I checked out tons of books from the library on personal finance. I started using YNAB, which is a budgeting software. I mean, I was really into it. And it just still couldn't—felt like I still couldn't hack, it. Felt like, I don't care how good I am at this, I don't feel like I have enough money to really invest for my future. And I don't know what kind of future I'm looking forward to. So I started just get really irritated with that. And knowing that there was such a ceiling in journalism anyway, and started to not be that inspired by the other jobs I could have in journalism. Like, when people would send me a job listing, even for the New York Times or for ProPublica, or wherever it was, like I don't, I don't really want to go somewhere else and do the same thing and make 20,000 more dollars. Like I don't, I don't want to do that. I didn't want to become an editor. I didn't want to become like a corporate person in the, in a news organization. So I started to realize that I was getting that same curiosity thing that drives me was was starting to be pointed in other directions. And so I was really curious to talk to former journalists, and I listened to The Writers' Co-op a lot, too. I loved—I love your podcast, especially during that time in my life. And I just started to feel like, oh I'm so interested in this idea of that there's all these people who been like me, newspaper journalists, but they left, and they did something else. And I want to talk to them. And so I did. I started to interview them, just on a personal basis and said, this is not for a story. Like I'm just doing personal research. I talked to people who moved into tech, who moved into entertainment, who started their own businesses. Like, all different fields, not just PR, which is the thing that a lot of people think is the only path after journalism, which it's not. And I just started to feel like, oh, I feel like my tribe is widening. Like, I always felt like I'm part of the journalist tribe. Like, my husband's a journalist. A lot of our friends are journalists. Like, I just—I've always felt like, that's my kind of people. And then I started to feel like, wow, my tribe is also former journalists. Like, I have so much in common with them, because they would say like the same things. I was so frustrated about money. I was so frustrated about looking forward in my career. And so I found this other job. And I very much still use my journalism skills, but it's different. And now it's like using a different part of my brain, and I make more money, and I have more time to myself, and I just kind of was like, wow. Now my investigation is how do I create the life and work life that I want? Like that is hard to do. Like, any investigation usually starts with a very hard question that you don't know if you're going to even find anything. And you're like, I am just going to talk to enough people and try enough things until I find the answer to this. And so that's kind of how that all started.
Wudan- Yeah. And how far along in journalism were you when you decided to explore other options? Like how many years?
Maya Lau- So I had started at the New York Times, I think in 2011. And then I became a reporter, like an actual reporter, reporter in 2014, I think. And then left the LA Times in 2021.
Wudan- So a decade.
Maya Lau- Yeah, about.
Wudan- Well, so you know, you're doing all these informational interviews. And I love this. I tell people to do this all the time, whether it's college students I'm mentoring. Whether it's freelancers who I am business coaching who want to try something new, but isn't quite sure what it is. I'm like, well, look at people who have a similar background to you and who have something that you desire. Like, how did they get from point A to B, and learn about their stories, build that community, and to kind of create a blueprint for yourself. So I'm curious, Maya, from your conversations with these ex- journalists? How did you converge on this idea of starting a financial investigations company?
Maya Lau- Well I mean, it was an evolution. I think, I mean, first, I actually went to a research firm and worked there for almost a year. And so it wasn't like I just one day opened my own company, you know?
Wudan- Yep.
Maya Lau- So I kind of had this on-ramp to the world of what some people might call like corporate intelligence. You know, basically, like people who are paid to investigate things. And this would be kind of like, you know, we would get hired by a law firm, for example, who has a huge case against Amazon. I'm not—Amazon wasn't actually a target, just an example. Like, a huge company that's doing some malfeasance all over the world. And they need to do a ton of research around that to create a really good lawsuit. Like that kind of work. It's very similar to journalism, but it's kind of more like targeted toward, you know, this is going to be used in a lawsuit to go against this company. And we want to find people. We want to find documents. We want to find threads that we can follow to build our case. So I worked for that company for a while. And then I felt like I built a lot of skills by working there, and then kind of was more introduced to this world and kind of by happenstance, a headhunter who I had talked to in 2021, or 2020, I had talked to her, nothing kind of worked out. But she worked with some investment firms looking for people like me. And then she contacted me, again, looking for like a contractor for, a researcher for, an investment firm. And then at that point, it just kind of—the stars aligned. I realized I could go out on my own. I could start my own company, and that there are these clients out there. And I mean, it was still definitely a risk. And just, by the way, shout out to my husband, because I think we can't have a conversation about this without noting, like, I had a lot of stability from the fact that my husband had a full-time job in healthcare. So that allowed me to feel like okay, I can take this risk.
Wudan- You can take a risk. Yeah. 100%. That makes so much sense. But so Maya, tell us about how you kind of conveyed your journalistic and investigative skills to work for this kind of firm. I'm just curious, like, how you talk about yourself and your skills?
Maya Lau- Like how do I advertise myself?
Wudan- Well, yeah. I mean, on one side, it's, you know, a firm like that can be like, oh, you're a journalist. Like, you report things. And then you write things. But I don't see you having a similar level of experience. Like you're not coming from another similar firm, right? You don't have an education in this. So how do you transfer your skills to a completely different-seeming industry?
Maya Lau- Yeah. Well, the thing is that it's—it does seem completely different. But it's not. Like, that's kind of the big revelation that I had is that journalists do work that actually a lot of people do in other fields. Like, I did a LinkedIn post about this, about how I transferred my skills or about how I pivoted. And some people have commented, like, oh, we do the same thing in sales, or like, we do the same thing in healthcare, insurance, research, whatever. Like, I think that the point is that they're not so different. But one thing that helps is I worked with other people who were also former journalists. So it wasn't just like going up to a random place and saying, hey, do you know what journalism is? Like, I think I can help you. Like it was working with people that they had also left places like the LA Times, and very much understood what I could do and what I probably couldn't do, and assigned me stuff. And I mean, it's largely the same. I think that when, like, for example, in investigating companies for potential investment, sometimes the things that as a journalist, you would be like, oh my God, I had this finding, or I least found this thread. It could be a total scandal. Oh my gosh, if I were a journalist, I'd write a front page story about this. Those things are important for sure. But sometimes when you're dealing with a huge multinational corporation, those are honestly kind of part of the course of doing business for them. And then could turn into huge scandals, or they could be something that is a problem and they, you know, make a settlement, and they move on. And it might not, like affect the company as a whole. And so you're kind of like thinking about things in a different way and thinking like, what is actually going to be a vulnerability for this company? Or what is like, you know, you're thinking about the company more as a large entity, and not only just like, what would a headline be? But yeah, thinking about like, things that wouldn't really be news stories could be important in my work. So like, talking to a lot of people about morale at the company. And maybe there's bad morale, and a lot of people want to leave, but it's not like anything super scandalous. But it's just, it's enough that it's actually a red flag for investors. Because it could show that the company is just not doing well. And if they can't attract top talent, you know, over the years that could drag down the company, that kind of thing. So I think it's kind of like learning that there are different targets. And there are different things that would be considered interesting, depending on what perspective you're coming from.
Wudan- Yeah, that all makes sense. So fascinating. So you're working at this firm for a while, and then you get the idea to strike out on your own. So how did you get from that idea to execution? What was the timeline? What kind of steps did you take? What did that look like?
Maya Lau- I guess I was lucky because this client came to me and just wanted me to work for them. You know, they like wanted me to be a contractor for them. And it was sort of a "let's see how this goes. And you know, if it goes well, we'll keep working together." So at some point, after working together a while and finding we work together well, I was able to put in place more of a long-term contract with them. Yeah, I don't know, if I have like a really like, interesting story of how I figured it out. It did kind of come together in a nice way. And then I just, I think, at first I was really nervous about like, I've never had a business before. I don't know, when my luck will run out. Where will I find my next client? And then, just through talking more to this main client, I realized, like, oh, I could just set up something more, more permanent or more long term with them. And that would, they might actually like that, too. Then they don't have to go find someone new every month, you know? I also have a business coach, which has helped me a lot with this and with how to think about it.
Wudan- So it sounds like you had two things running in parallel. Like, you were starting your own investigations business on top of still working with this firm.
Maya Lau- No, no, no, sorry. I left the firm and then I started the business.
Got it. Okay.
Maya Lau- Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I didn't have I think I knew that I was—like, I started talking to them and kind of lined up that I would start working with them for after I left the firm. But it wasn't, I didn't actually work with them yet.
Wudan- Oh, okay.
Maya Lau- Yeah, I lined up that I knew I would have like, a month's worth of work or something like, you know, like, I was like, I think I have like a thing that I can start after I leave this company.
Wudan- Yeah. Right. You have something stabilizing?
Maya Lau- Yeah, but it wasn't like I was working for—no. Yeah.
Wudan- Uh huh. Uh huh. So I'm just curious, like, kind of going from journalism to launching a financial investigations company within, like, twoish years, it sounds like, what was that transition like, emotionally? And I think like, as a matter of identity, too, right? It's like, yeah, you're talking about the tribe of journalists. And then all of a sudden, you're kind of being indoctrinated into a different group of people, a community.
Maya Lau- That was a huge deal for me. And that was a big question that when I was doing my listening tour of sorts of talking to former journalists, I did ask them a lot about identity and like, how did you feel about leaving a newspaper? And what do you call yourself? And, you know, do you ever feel sad that at dinner parties, people are less interested to hear about your work and stuff? I should also say this coincided with the pandemic, which of course, was a huge—it coincided with the birth of my daughter, who was born in October 2019. So a little bit before the pandemic, and then the pandemic definitely accelerated my feelings of needing a transition and stuff. So I think that at first, after I left the paper in 2021, I was actually really relieved to—I kind of unplugged. Like, I unplugged from Twitter. I just was like, I am so relieved to not feel like I have to be part of the conversation, you know, reacting to things, jumping on news, having hot takes. Like, I was just like, thank God I just don't—I don't want to be part of that right now. So part of it was nice. And it was the pandemic. And I was a new mom. It was just like, look, I'm doing something else now. And then I think that when my podcast launched, which was in early 2023, it was kind of perfect. Because at that point, I was sort of ready to reenter the world, if you will. And that's a huge part of this story, too, because I don't think I could do what I do without also having the podcast and/or—like, I have other podcast ideas in the background that I'm working on. I have, like, I don't think that I could just do the financial investigations thing, because I do like to be in the media. And like, I do like to have a creative project that I'm working on. And I think the whole thing about, you know, I mentioned this, because your podcast is called The Writers' Co-op, I realized that in writing, what I really loved was actually interviewing. Yeah, so having the podcast and even though we are on hiatus right now, like, I'm still developing material. I'm still thinking about another—like, I'm still in that creative space, and able to do the interviewing, which is the thing that I loved most about being a newspaper reporter. So I think like having that duality. Like the financial investigation side is very cerebral. It's very heads down. It's very, like, done in the, not in the shadows, but like, it's private, you know? Like, I don't talk about what—I can't talk about what I do publicly. But then the other side of me is more like bubbly and wants to like chit chat and gossip, you know. So I think having those—I think that's a thing that I've told a lot of journalists who are trying to leave, because a lot of people come to me with these questions is like, I think it's really important if you—to identify what, what did you like about journalism in the first place, and to try to maintain some of those elements. And not just like, find some other high-paying job, because I do talk to people who did that. And they're like, God, I also wish I could write a book, or I also—like, you can see, there's still something missing. And right now, I actually feel like in many ways, I've deconstructed my career or my career interests into something that I like better, because now I can do like the parts that I really want to do, and not do so much of the heavy writing, which I didn't really like doing.
Wudan- Yeah, I think you're just hitting on like the theme of this season, which is the year of thinking expansively. And I think, you know, there are so many traditional transitions out of journalism. Whether it's PR, content writing, marketing, so on and so forth. And investigations too, to an extent. But I think it's actually like, really creative to do that deconstructing, which you've done, and basically have this, you know, like, two part-ish business between the podcasts and your investigations that is all your interests on your own terms. I just think that's super cool.
Maya Lau- Thanks. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it's not like it's total paradise. I mean, some days, I'm like, God, what do I, what do I do? What does my daughter think I do for a living? Or what is she gonna say, like, you know, 10 years from now? What is she gonna say, are her mom's career accomplishments? Like, I honestly don't really know. But I do feel a lot happier. And I feel more like that same sort of investigative spirit is still there. It's kind of more directed at, like I said, like, the investigation of how to have a business. Or like, how to have a career and work life that I really like. And that turns me on and like is, you know, like, I really feel like, next year, I have no idea. I could, I could start some other project. Like, I feel kind of like, I could do that, as opposed to where I felt before. Like, I'm just in this job. And yes, it's creative to some extent, but editors want this and, you know, I feel like I'm betting on myself. And that feels more exciting. And yeah, like you said, expansive. And so, yeah.
Wudan- Back to Anza. What challenges or growing pains would you say you faced as you were getting that business up and running?
Maya Lau- Part of it for me is learning about the business world. You know, like, sometimes I feel like—
uh huh
Maya Lau- —again, I have these moments where I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe that I work in finance. Like, I don't know anything about finance. But you know, I know enough to ask the right questions. And also sometimes that outsider point of view is really helpful, because I'm not speaking in all the jargon and taking things for granted. Part of is like getting up to speed with things that a financial journalist would do, like reading, you know, SEC filings and knowing what kind of questions to ask when investigating a business. I do interview people for this work. And I'm interviewing some business leader who's totally in their zone, like, does not know how to talk without jargon. And to have to talk to them can be very hard sometimes. And you're like, wow, I have no idea what you're talking about. You know, it's not like for a podcast ,where you're selectively picking people who are good talkers, and good with words, good at explaining things for a general audience. No, some of these people are like, it's almost like they've never had a conversation outside of their line of work. So yeah, kind of getting up to speed with, like, how to talk to those—how to understand what they're talking about, and then translate that to what my client would want to know. And then understanding kind of what I want out of it. And that's kind of where my business coaches helped me to identify—like, one of the things was, sometimes I'm asked to investigate how well a product is doing.
Wudan- Oh, yeah,
Maya Lau- And that's really hard, honestly. I mean, I've never used the product. It's a product that's only designed for really specialized software developers. It's, you know, like, it's very hard to find, to have findings on that. And so I kind of realized that I'm really better, and I find it more enjoyable to investigate people and like, how are they managing the company? Do people like working with them? And, you know, kind of more like, the people versus the product. And so kind of re-learning how to communicate back to my client, like, this is actually what I want to do, and I'm good at. It's kind of like how a restaurant could say, like, you could ask some chef, oh, you're an amazing Mexican chef. But can you make me sushi? It's like, they can. But honestly, their best role is to say, this is what's on our menu. This is what we're good at. Like, why would you really even want me to make sushi? Because that's not going to be my best, you know? So kind of learning, like, how to manage the expectations with your client, and then learning how to raise your rates and justify them and think about them and all of that stuff. So I think all of that has been a learning process for me.
Wudan- Yeah, the different industry part is so fascinating. Like, were you going to different conferences in your industry, or networking events in wherever you happen to be living at the time? What was that like, just to build up that community?
Maya Lau- I actually haven't done any conferences in this industry, which I should. And it's been something I'm interested in, but somehow has never worked out yet. I do a little bit of networking. Like there's a few people kind of in the field that I know, and we talk to each other. But I wouldn't say that I have like dove in, and I'm like a big muckety-muck in this industry. Like, it's a reminder that I probably should go to a conference.
Wudan- Oh, man. I'm just so curious, what advice do you have for other freelancers, who may have, you know, similar backgrounds to you and I, in writing and journalism and interviewing and investigations who are thinking about turning an area of subject matter expertise into a full-blown freelance business?
Maya Lau- Yeah, the advice that I have is just: iI you are a journalist or a reporter, treat this like a story you're reporting. Like, talk to as many people as you can to feel like you have a handle on this topic literally of how do I transfer my skills to something else that I like better that does XYZ, like make more money or give me more time or whatever it is. It may take talking to like 100 people. Seriously, it may take finally getting to this place of a) networking and building up that network to reach out to. But just getting the sense of like, oh, I hear people talking about this enough to know that this is a real thing. Or, oh, I talked to this person that gave me this idea. It all starts with that, with that interviewing process, I think. And then it is kind of just like how life and career is in general, where that...like there just isn't a manual. There isn't a path. There's no handbook that someone could give you. It really is that you have to find what works for you. And so I think just knowing that, knowing that it's going to be a process, and knowing that betting on yourself and kind of trusting like, you have a type of expertise. There are other people out there like you, and you can reach out to them. They can be a source of support. I just want to throw this out there. We've kind of touched on it, but I think that a lot of journalists sometimes think, especially if they've only worked in journalism, they think they have no marketable skills, which is like the dumbest...I think it's like, that's so crazy. Yeah. Because actually
Wudan- Super false.
Maya Lau- Yeah, I mean.
Wudan- So untrue.
Maya Lau- Yeah, you have like probably the most marketable skills, which is that you can take really broad , disparate bits of information and synthesize them quickly into another format that makes sense to someone else, especially to the general public, or to whatever audience. I mean, it's, it's not that different from what teachers do. It's not like they wrote all the literature, or they made all the scientific discoveries, but they know how to take all this information. And anyone who's had a really good teacher knows, like, wow, they just know how to package it. Like, they know how to make it feel relevant to me as the student. And so that's basically the skill of journalism. It's a very similar skill, and it's needed in every industry to different extents. So I would just say that, is like know that your skills are marketable. It's just like, how are you going to translate that? What aspects do you want to take from journalism? And what do you want to discard? And that you may have to kind of explain to new people you work with, especially who have never interacted with journalists, what it is that you do? This is one of those areas where I both feel like I have advice and also just feel a little bit inadequate. Because it's like, I can't tell anyone how to do this. Like, it is kind of finding your own way a little bit. But I do think that it's possible.
Wudan- Yeah, and I liked that you talked about the support that you've had along the way too. Of course, you know, having a partner is helpful, and allows us to make bigger and better swings for ourselves, if there's the stability of household income and health insurance. And you've mentioned a business coach, which I've hired business coaches before too, at different points of different businesses. And I'm just curious, what else would you add to kind of that bundle of support that you crave for your business?
Maya Lau- I mean, I think it's good to have, if you don't already have like a savings cushion. That's just a good general thing to have in life. I'm trying to think of what other kinds of support. Even like, other people that have their own businesses who aren't in your field, I mean, just having somebody else so you can be like, so like, what kind of accountants should I be using? Or what, you know, what are all the things to make sure that I'm doing this right?
Wudan- Yeah, well, I feel it's so interesting with small businesses, because you know, we can all sound very specialized and different to one another if we don't work directly in our own fields. But there are a lot of shared struggles and pain points and winds and ways that you can support just by being in community with other people who work for themselves and are trying to intentionally build a different life than what our dream careers were like back in grade school.
Maya Lau- Totally. Yeah. And my business coach has worked and still works with a lot of tech founders. And like, like, she mainly actually advises people in other fields. And so I learned so much about business just from talking to her, because she'll be like, oh, but you know, that's a really common thing to do in tech. And I'm like, I...no, I don't know. You know? So yeah, I think having kind of some lifeline to someone who knows more about business is really helpful.
Wudan- Yes, yeah. The business coach I hired usually works with BIPOC women in leadership positions, but she came so highly recommended. I was like, sure, why not? Cynthia Pong. She's been on the show. And having that outside perspective is so valuable. It is...yeah. Like I run a company. Of course, I'm a leader.
Maya Lau- Right. Yeah. It's...and it's funny to think of, yeah...it's funny to think of oneself as founder, a CEO, you know. But yeah,
Wudan- Yeah. Well, Maya, thank you so much for this expansive conversation about how to take all the skills that you actually have and create a business that is not related to anything you've really been doing before, but helps you live a life of curiosity and balance that you want.
Maya Lau- Yeah, thank you so much for having me on.
Wudan- Thank you so much to Maya for coming on the show. You can follow her on LinkedIn, Instagram @itsmayamoney or X @mayalau. If you're interested in conducting your own informational interviews to inform your freelance business, take a leaf out of Maya's book. She recently shared on a LinkedIn post about how to reach out to others for their time to talk about their career journeys. You'll find that link in our show notes. So that is it for now. Remember, if you'd like to continue the conversation, Patreon members are already discussing this episode on our psychologically-safe and inclusive Slack channels. So join us. Sign up anytime at patreon.com/TWCpod. Thank you so much for listening to the Writers Co-op. This season is written, hosted and executive produced by me, Wudan Yan. The show's producer is Margaret Osborne and our editor is Susan Valot.
