Grow Your Career
EPISODE 10:
How do you plan a career trajectory when there are infinite options and no set paths? Freelancers can struggle with career building because there are no managers to give you raises, and no obvious career ladder. But there are some common ways to build skills and move up in the industry.
In this episode, Jenni and Wudan talk about growing your writing career. They discuss applying for grants, the pros and cons of enrolling in a masters program, how to get experience on the job, pitching ambitious projects and setting goals for yourself, and how to stay intentional about where you want to go.
Freelancer and resume wizard Adina Salomon also joins the hosts to talk about tips and tricks for polishing up your freelancer resume.
You're invited to support the podcast by becoming an official Writers' Co-op member on Patreon, and we hope you'll sign up for our free newsletter, too. Members get access to event discounts, special worksheets and other downloads, an exclusive episode at the end of each season, and access to a Q&A form, to suggest topics to be covered on the podcast. If you're a VIP member, you also get monthly coaching sessions.
If you're not a member, you can buy each episode's accompanying resources a la carte on our website. Episode transcriptions are also available there.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/twcpod)
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Full Transcript Below:
W- Welcome to The Writers’ Co-op, a business podcast for freelance writers everywhere!
J- We are your co-hosts. I’m Jenni Gritters
W- And I’m Wudan Yan.
J- This week…. Is our last episode of season 1!
W- I kind of can’t believe it
J- I know.
W- We’ve recorded this entire season in the middle of a pandemic, while I’ve been on the Covid beat since March, and Jenni has returned from maternity leave and is balancing it all. All of it!
J- It’s been a wild time, but we’re here! Wudan and I started this podcast thinking of it as a way to store all of our knowledge in one place, so we could refer people to these episodes when they needed help. But it’s turned into so much more.
Whether you’re just tuning in or you’ve been hanging out all season, we want to say thanks-- for supporting us, for giving us ideas of what to cover, for attending our workshops and events, for supporting us on Patreon. We can’t wait for season 2.
W- If you’re a Patreon member, you will get *one* more episode after this one, a member-only episode about our secret sauce. You’ll get that whether you have a basic, All Access, or VIP membership. And while we’re between seasons, our members will also get access to events, newsletters, and additional resources.
So, Jenni, how are we ending this first season?
J- We’re going to talk about ways to grow your writing career.
W- I’m excited, I get so many questions about this all the time.
J- Yeah, and this concept of ‘growing your career’ is sort of confusing as a freelancer, because there’s no one set route to take. You don’t have a manager who’s pushing you to grow your skills. So I often wonder: If you’re doing this for 10, 20 years, how do you make progress and move up in the industry? It’s a question I’m still answering for myself, but we will try to talk about a few different methods of career growth here.
W- Also, just a note that a lot of what we mention in this episode is largely for freelancers working journalism, but some themes may apply to other types of freelance writing and editing as well.
So Jenni, where should we start?
J- I think it makes sense to start from the beginning, like getting into this field to begin with. Do you need training?
W- Yes! I get so many questions about whether or not someone should go to journalism school, or for their MFA, or whatever. What do you think about that Jenni, as someone who did go to j-school? And I guess what I’m really asking is: what value did that add to your career now, and all in all, did you find the monetary and time investment worth it?
J- I have THOUGHTS about this. Oh man. As you said, I got a masters degree in journalism at Boston University after finishing up my undergrad degree at Bucknell. I didn’t have any journalism experience prior except for a few travel writing internships, so I knew I needed to build up some basic skills if I wanted to pursue this path. I was also quite lost when it came to a career direction so I applied to masters programs as a fall back, on the recommendation of my advisor. Then I got a hefty scholarship and ended up in Boston.
I’d say there are some notable pros and notable cons to J-school, and your decision to attend or not really depends on what things you feel like you need to add to your skillset in order to take on the notoriously tough media industry. First of all, biggest con: journalism school is often really freaking expensive. Most programs are at private universities and cost in the neighborhood of at least 100000 for 1-2 years. Most are in cities around the US that are expensive to live in. And after you graduate, you won’t be able to pay your loans back quickly if you’re bringing in an average media salary of around 50k. You may be saddled with debt for years. It’s different from taking out loans to pursue a career that will eventually pay for itself. Media just isn’t very financially lucrative. So if you can find a way around this financial burden-- like using savings, or getting scholarships-- that’s a big deal.
W- -- or you can be like Jenni -- and use your massive loans to just go after projects that will pay lots of money!
J- Ha, it’s true! It’s a big motivator for me. My loans are actually paid off because I got a big scholarship that covered my tuition and some living expenses, which is why i ultimately decided to go. But my husband has a lot of student loans too, so i could talk forever about the pros and mostly cons of carrying around a heavy loan burden. It’s tough.
There are some big pros to going to a journalism program, though. For me, the biggest benefit of journalism school wasn’t skill building-- which I think you can do yourself without a program if you’re industrious. It was the connections. I’ve talked before about running that journalism conference in Boston; so many of my connections and mentorship opportunities came from that, and I got that gig because the conference was run by my grad program. The people I graduated with are also my industry colleagues now. That network has been a huge deal for me; I think it’s the biggest benefit of the program.
And, of course, the classes are interesting. If you like learning, which I do, it’s cool to be able to sit in a classroom and noodle on the existential issues that surround journalism, like ethics and history and craft. When else do you get to do that?
W- Yeah, the ethics and craft aspect are definitely really important, and something i wish I had dedicated time for. I learned most of that on the job! I also know j-school or any graduate program can be really really really useful for people of color. Getting that degree gives a lot of folks from marginalized groups a leg up when getting hired, especially if employers -- I mean staff or freelance -- wouldn’t bat an eye at them otherwise.
J- For sure. I think journalism school can be useful for some people-- however, you DO NOT need it. You can definitely enter this field and meet people to break into journalism, as you did, without that quote on quote traditional training.
W- Yes, I don’t want to rehash what I’ve already said in a previous episode because air time is valuable, but I just want to remind everyone to start small and keep building on your prior experiences. It’s possible to get into this without going to school, but it takes persistence and hard work.
J- One other question we get a lot is about certifications. Like, do you need a certification to become an editor or a fact checker? Or is it worth it to take a data journalism program, or something to teach you how to take better photos? Wudan, what do you think?
W- I’m actually not aware of certificates in the US for things like that. I’ve heard some certificates like that exist in Canada. There are so many courses out there to develop certain skill sets. For data journalism, the Investigative Reporters and Editors have lots of workshops across the country that focus on filing public records requests, building databases, learning Python, etcetera.
I’m going to say something possibly controversial, but all the learning that I’ve done is from the job, or workshops at conferences. Even throwing together a podcast, we kind of just… figured it out as we went. The best thing to get is experience. Again, if learning in a formal setting or getting a certificate -- or a degree for that matter -- gives you a boost of confidence to go after the things you want to do, great. But I don’t think you have to necessarily throw a ton of money into training. What do you think Jenni?
J- Like I said before, I’m into the idea of learning. I like school. So occasionally I’ve enrolled in massive online courses for cheap like this to build skills. Like I did a social media certification through Poynter, and a yoga teacher training program. I’ve also done online photography classes.
But I agree-- just doing the work and learning on the job has been more effective for me in terms of skill building. If you feel like you really don’t know where to start, a certification can help you figure that out. But I don’t think it’s necessary, and I don’t think media companies will only hire editors who have an editing certification, for example. If you’re working with a brand or a trade publication, they might be more likely to hire you if you have a niche certification. But in my experience, what matters more is the publications on your resume.
W- Yes, 100% agree. And it’s not just for editing or fact checking. For journalists and writers, getting bylines in recognizable outlets like The New York Times, New Yorker, and other magazines is key. And I think for people who work with brands, having a good line up of past clients makes a difference, too.
I wonder if you can speak to this from an editor’s perspective, like, how much do these names matter? And what do they tell you?
J- They matter a lot. When I would skim through pitches, I’d always check where people had been published before. It was the first thing I looked at. If they had a big name pub on their roster, whether it was for writing or editing, it was a good sign. Now, you don’t need 20 of these. But just a few big name pubs will make you more hireable, both for brands and for media companies.
I want to recognize that this kind of sucks, because we all know that one big byline doesn’t mean someone is skilled at the craft of journalism. But when you’re emailing a swamped editor who’s skimming the pile, you need a way to get your foot in the door. Having a big name publication on your resume is one of the best ways to get that door open, I think.
As for what this tells you as an editor, if I see that you’ve written for a big name pub before it tells me that you understand what it’s like to be on the world’s stage. You’re hopefully trained in processes, too -- like, used to being edited, and have a high standard for factual accuracy. It also shows me that you’re putting yourself out there, because you’ve likely pitched those places. I think those big name pubs speak to your tenacity, experience, and skills. But as I said before, you don’t need a ton of these names! Just show me that you know what to do.
W- Totally. I also think generally having “prestige” clips is a good move to show that you have story ideas that suit a broader audience and that you can pull those stories off.
J- For sure.
W- I had a coaching client ask me recently, about how I got so many big bylines. My advice is to generally: start small with the stories you write, the places you pitch, the people you network with, and once you have enough momentum and less imposter syndrome, pitch more aggressively! Network! I think people forget how effective pitching can be as a ‘networking’ tool.
Let me pull back the curtain a little bit.
I got my first New Yorker (online) commission about a year and some change into freelancing. That’s because an editor there at the time read some of my work at Discover Magazine, where I got some of my first writing clips -- and where he used to edit. Since we were in the same city, we got a coffee and started talking about my other curiosities.
I got my first Harper’s commission - also for web -- about three years into freelancing. That’s because I made it a goal to get a byline at Harper’s, and on a trip to New York City, I asked one of their editors out to coffee, where I did something really similar, talked about what I was working on and learned about what they were looking for web and the magazine.
J- I want to tease out a few things in here: First, Wudan, you said you made it a goal to get published in Harper’s. Do you do this often, with setting goal publications for yourself?
W- I did really early on, like through the first 3-4 years of my career. My goal for year one was to start writing and publishing features, which I did. My goal through years 2-4 were to start working on projects I wanted to, and for stories to land in more recognizable places. Again, I didn’t go to jschool so I didn’t have an institution to hang my name on, so I felt like I needed some more prestige outlets to do that legwork for me. But yes, I’m a big goal setter. It helps me prioritize who to pitch, for instance
J- I was reminded by my recent New York Times byline that it does make sense to pitch ambitiously; if you’re telling yourself you can’t get published in one of your goal publications, that’s a self fulfilling prophecy. Try! See what happens.
Wudan, do you wait until you find a story that seems right for that place or do you sit down and come up with ideas?
W- It goes both ways, I think. It depends on the story, for sure. I mean, if I have a goal publication, I might start looking for stories through the lens of that newspaper or magazine, if that makes sense. “Is this a Washington Post story? Is this a Wired story?” things of that sort. But most of the time I look at a topic and see how it can be a story for different publications.
J- I also want to hear about pitching longform work, because i know you do a lot of that and I think it’s ambitious. It’s also a good way to build new skills and show what you can REALLY do. I think I’ve talked about this before on the pod, and certainly in other places online, but one of my old professors used to say there’s a max and a min for every story. A big version, a little version, and everything in between. Tell me about what it’s like to pitch that max version.
W- I think it’s important to have clips that showcase the type of work you want to do. First of all, you should align yourself with an editor who believes that you can pull off this work, especially if it’s your first feature story. I pick where to pitch a story in part based on this. I got my first feature assignment about 6 months into freelancing, and it was horrifying! Like I didn’t even know how to write a feature, but I was working with an editor who I guess saw my potential.
J- I totally know that horror feeling-- like, oh my god, I have to actually make the story I pitched! What have I done! How do you think they saw your potential since you hadn’t written long before?
W- I was fact-checking for them, and like I said before, fact-checking has 100% been my trojan horse to get into writing for those same publications.
And honestly, it just takes a few clips to show to the rest of the world that yes, writing long is a thing you do. Over time, people just trust you more and more with it.
J- This, to me, is a big career building issue for freelancers. A lot of us-- myself included -- just take on all the assignments that come our way, because money is important and work is good. But sometimes your “brand,” let’s call it, can get diffuse because of this, and you lose direction. You look up and realize: I’ve been writing for a year but none of my clips show the work I actually want to be doing long-term.
W- I feel that!
J- This is actually hard for me personally; I get in the zone of working and being productive, but then I’ll have a moment where I think, oh, I actually want to be doing THAT. And I’m not. I’m like, I’m writing stories about running shoes but I wouldn’t show those off when people ask what I want to be doing. Maybe I really want to be writing about the psychology of parenting, so then I need to recalibrate and make sure I’m actually doing that work!
I hear this from so many writers, and I think it’s the nature of our business. Our priorities as writers may change as we change as people, which is natural, but we have to pay attention to building our career in the direction we think we want to go or else we can end up way out in left field. This is why Wudan and I are so big on interrogating your goals and your values. If you don’t know where you’re going, you can’t get there. As Wudan is saying, you can’t build stories that show your skills and help you reach your goals unless you’re putting time and effort toward that work. Sounds simple, is hard haha.
Wudan, let’s talk more about these passion projects, and how to make these happen, especially starting out. I think you’re so good at this!
W- Yes! I love talking about this. The answer is to get grants and fellowships. I think it’s very unlikely that, for instance, if you have a story that involves overseas travel and you’ve never traveled internationally to report, a publication will take that chance on you. But if that pub wants your story, you can use their interest to apply for a grant that covers reporting costs -- and if you’re lucky -- also your time for being on the ground.
J- How can people find a list of these fellowships?
W- I personally like to curate my own list of what’s available and the deadlines. Everyone’s interests are different, so as I find grants of interest, I put them on a running Sticky note on my desktop, and make note of the deadlines.
J- I think Study Hall often has a good running list, and most media newsletters will include notes on grants from time to time, too. I do the same, where I keep a list of ideas of places to apply.
In general, I think grants and fellowships are a really underrated way of building your career. I didn’t know much about them until I became friends with you, Wudan. Sometimes fellowships even come with support, classes, or other learning opportunities. And a lot of them are targeted at early career journalists. What makes for a successful grant or fellowship application?
W- A few things. The scope of the project needs to be super clear and it’s on you -- the applicant -- to basically explain why the story is important and why it needs to be told now. The second really big thing is to either have the portfolio to back yourself up, or letters of interest from editors at publication. Funders want to know that you’ll produce something that will end up in the world.
J- Wudan is super good at getting fellowships and grants. We will include a few examples of her successful grant applications if you’re an All-Access member. We are also planning to do a webinar on applying for grants and fellowships this summer, so more on that to come!
W- I’m looking forward to that.
Jenni, let’s talk about earning more money as a freelancer as a way to grow your career
J- Yeah I think this is really important, especially because as a freelancer the only person giving you a raise is yourself!
W- So the question really is, how do you give yourself a raise?
J- This year I was like okay, I need to work less because child, and also my skills are more developed than they were two years ago. My market value has increased. I have a masters degree and a portfolio of impressive clients. It is time! A lot of this comes back to setting boundaries, which I know we’ve probably talked about ad nauseam -- but I decided I needed to make more, figured out what it would look like to give myself a raise of about $5/ hour on top of my usual hourly rate, or at least .20/word more than before, then wrote those numbers on a sticky and put it next to my computer. Now, when I negotiate, I use those new numbers.
It’s like, I know my work is even more valuable to clients now. They are getting more from me. It’s a smart investment from them. AND this also means dropping clients that no longer fit within the bounds of my new pricing model, or within the bounds of my priorities. I’ve been doing a lot of work lately to define where I want to go in the next year or two, and you can’t go somewhere new while keeping your same old rates and same old clients. Expansion doesn’t happen when you’re staying in your former little box. So there’s a decision making process there, about clients and your own value.
This is a skill I think we need to talk about more as freelancers, honestly. At a full time job, you’d have a manager saying: wow, look at your good work, you’ve been here for two years and it’s time to expand your skillset, put you in a new role, pay you more, and give you responsibility. As a freelancer, it’s entirely up to you to make that happen for yourself, which I know is bold and takes a ton of trial and error, and practice.
I want to say to y’all who are listening: Consider giving yourself a raise. If it’s been a year or more since you determined your rates, it’s time!
W- Yeah, I like to re-negotiate rates at place I have an ongoing relationship with about every year or so. For some magazines I work with, my rates sort of change based on the scope of my project. And! Lastly I want to say that, the longer I stay in this kind of work, the faster that I get, so I actually benefit a lot from project rates. My hourly rate is higher and I can actually take on more work.
But also, I love the idea of learning new skills. Over the years, I’ve taken on photography, and now, looking at the brand new world of audio!
J- This is where I actually think some of those extra certifications or explorations might make sense, too. Like, if you want to dive into a new topic or increase your expertise by adding a marketable skill-- recently I was talking to someone about learning SEO, or social distribution techniques. How can you continue learning and expanding? Conferences are great. Talks are good. Books are solid. So is just taking on a new project and learning as you go. That continuing education is up to you. I think this might be a good idea now as we head into a recession, too-- diversify your service offerings by adding a new skill to your resume.
J- The last thing we want to talk about on here is using freelancing as a stepping stone to a staff job, or as a buffer between staff jobs, even though we usually talk about freelancing being a career in and of itself
W- Yes. We recognize that freelancing isnt’ for everyone, and that’s ok.
J- A lot of new grads who are coming into journalism right now might need to start as freelancers, given this recession and the state of the job market. This is kinda cool because you get to shape your own career from day one. But eventually, you may want a full time gig so you can get the benefit of mentorship and consistency. And you should prepare your resume in a certain way to parlay your experience.
W- Yes! I actually update my resume every quarter because sometimes I need to apply for fellowships. This week, I spoke with Adina Solomon about resumes. Let’s listen to that segment.
Adina is a freelance journalist based in Atlanta, Georgia, who writes about city planning, business and death. She also writes, edits and consults on resumes for freelancers and other professions, and that’s through her business Relevant Resume. Adina, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Adina Salomon- Well thank you for having me.
W- Totally! So, maybe we can talk about why it’s important for freelancers to have a resume at all.
A- That’s a good question because I think we usually think of resumes as for people who have staff jobs and work for companies and are applying for other companies, but I think it’s a good idea for freelancers to also have a resume. Of course, if you’re a freelancer and you’re looking to move into a full-time job you’ll definitely need one. But in addition, there’s a good bit of part-time contract work that a freelancer could apply for that asks for a resume too. And if you’re not applying for a job like that you can need one when you’re applying to different programs and fellowships and grants. And it’s just a good idea to have one because really it’s a summary that you create of your accomplishments and your career experience. It’s the most efficient way to communicate the highlights of what you’ve been through in your career, even for a freelancer.
W- Definitely. Yeah, it’s a good way, I think, to synthesize everything. And I usually revisit mine at least every quarter and try to keep it up-to-date. So, Adina, what makes a good resume?
A- So at the end of the day a resume is a marketing tool for yourself and for any sort of work or jobs or anything that you want to get. So it really should be easy to read. I think people don’t spend that long reading your resume. I’ve seen some statistic out there saying that a typical resume is only read for the first time in under a minute. It’s really kind of a glance. A really quick read. So you really need to quickly communicate with the resume what you’re about and what you do. That means it needs to be easily scanned by the person reading it, and written in such a way that someone could quickly know your job and your work and anything else you want to communicate: any awards you’ve gotten; any accomplishments you’re really proud of. They really need to know that quickly. So a good resume should be able to do that. And you can do that, of course, through the way you write it. You can do that with the headings you choose, the design you choose, that sort of thing.
W- For sure. That makes a lot of sense. On a more granular level, if a freelancer wanted to write their own, how should they think about building theirs?
A- There are an infinite number of ways to write a resume. There’s no one way for everybody. It really can depend on what you want to do with the resume and what your career has looked like thus far and all that kind of stuff. But think about what works for you and what you’re using the resume for. For some people, they can have a pretty traditional listing of jobs that they’ve held, along with a description of each position. For other freelancers, what works is a list of some of their biggest accomplishments. So kind of think about what you’re applying to. If you’re applying to a program that asks for specific qualifications, make sure those qualifications are really apparent when people read your resume quickly. They’re hopefully up top in case someone doesn’t get to the bottom of that resume. Really think about what you’re going to use it for.
W- When you’re demarcating different things or sections, is that by skill?
A- Again, I think that depends on the person. But I think it can really work to have different sections for different skills. If you have one section for, let’s say, your writing skills. One section for investigation/fact-checking skills, that can really work well.
W- What mistakes do you commonly see freelancers making when they’re writing up their resume?
A- So, I see a lot of freelancers trying to fit everything on their resume that they’ve ever done and just kind of cramming it full. And people with full-time jobs at companies do this too. But I feel like this is even more true for freelancer because you can be juggling a lot of balls, right? You’re not at one company. You’re working for a lot of different entities. So it can be really easy for your resume to balloon. I’ve seen freelancer try to put just about every place they’ve ever written for on their resume, which probably is impossible. It’s best to keep your resume to two pages or less. Remember that a resume is never going to fit everything you’ve done. It’s really just a highlight reel. So you need to pick the biggest or most significant things. If you’re contributing editor somewhere, I’d probably include that in your resume since that’s kind of more of a long-term thing. But if you wrote 500 words for a publication one time, it’s less likely that you need to include that on a separate line that says you were a writer at such-and-such publication during March 2019. I’ve seen people try to do that, like have a line for each thing, and I don’t think it works very well because it can make your resume kind of busy and difficult to read, which kind of detracts from the purpose which is, again, to be that highlight reel and allow people to find out what you’re about quickly.
W- Definitely. And when you interviewed me for my resume we talked about at what point do you take things off, like internships. So what advice do you have on that front?
A- I think it can be very tempting to leave things like internships on a resume for a long time because a lot of times internships are really important when you started in your work, and can be foundational. Just because you take them off your resume, it doesn’t mean that they’re not still of importance to you. But a resume is, again, supposed to be this marketing tool to show what you do. And it’s also supposed to show things that in general are a little bit more on the current side. Internships are one of those things that you have to evaluate whether you want to keep on as you progress in your career. So if someone is, I don’t know, six months or a year out of school, there’s a really good case for keeping internships on. They probably don’t have much career experience yet at that point. But, I don’t know, if you’re a few more years into your career — 5 years, 10 years — I don’t think it’s as relevant anymore because at that point you’ve done a lot of other work, a lot of work outside of internships. So in general I think it’s a good idea to take it off after one to two years. I can see an argument for more, depending on the person, because there’s no one-size-fits-all response. But it’s a good idea to eventually take it off and open the door for your resume to more current things that you’ve been doing. Because, again, you are trying to keep it to one to two pages.
W- Sure, that makes a lot of sense. It’s a question of “is this experience serving what I need it to do for me to apply for this part-time gig, or this fellowship, or even a full-time job,” right?
A- Exactly. You have to evaluate if it’s going to serve you well as you’re applying to whatever you’re applying to.
I’ve done resumes before for people who have been in their careers for 15 to 20 years and they still have internships on their resume. And it just makes the resume very long, and I think it can also sometimes give the impression that you’re not updating your resume and you’re not adapting it to whatever job or program you’re applying to. It makes you think that the resume is just an anthology of everywhere you’ve ever worked. You don’t want to that.
W- Definitely. Nobody’s got time for all that. Adina, that was great. Thank you so much for speaking to us about resumes on the show. If you are an All-Access member for The Writer’s Co-op on Patreon, this week we will have a template of what a good resume looks like. It’s actually my resume. So that will be pretty fascinating to have out there as a resource. Thank you so much again, Adina.
A- Thank you so much for having me! I appreciate it.
J- I love all of this info from Adina, because I sometimes struggle to convey my freelance experience on a resume. Like, here I am, I have done 30 things this past year, look at the list! So her advice is good, about focusing down on what story you want to tell.
W- Agreed. There was a lot to pack into this episode on building your careers. The TLDR is that career building comes in many different forms for freelancers, and there are different ways to empower yourselves to make these moves.
J- That freedom is actually one of the glorious parts of working for yourself, I think. There’s no one to tell you that you can’t go a certain direction or learn a new thing. We’ll include some stuff in the Learning Portal for All Access and VIP members to help you figure out your own career goals, as Wudan said: Examples of successful grant applications, a career goal setting worksheet, and a set of “give yourself a raise” prompts. We’ll also include some cool resources in our newsletter, to give you a sense of where to look if you want continuing education or you’re interested in finding grant and fellowship opportunities. And, as always, we’re always around to answer questions on Twitter and email and Instagram and… all over the internet.
W- Whoa, that’s a wrap for season 1!
J- ah! So crazy. Well, unless you’re a Patreon subscriber, that is, in which case you get a secret episode two weeks from now. I just did that interview and it’s great, let me tell you.
W- If you need to be convinced to join, as we said before, the secret episode is about what we believe to be key in running a successful freelance business.
J- I’m really looking forward to that episode going live. I think it’s one of my favorites we’ve done! And let me just put it this way: wish I had that episode to listen to when I was just starting out.
W- Totally. We will be back in the fall, with another season, interviewing other freelancers about their business models and how they’ve found success. Ghostwriters, novelists, social media managers, influencers, longform journalists, beat reporters, editors, fact checkers, and more. It’s going to be fun.
J- Also, if you just heard Wudan say that and thought “that successful, biz-obsessed freelancer is ME”-- or someone you know -- please write to us! We are all ears. thewriterscoop2@gmail.com
J- That’s thewriterscoop -- all one word -- two, the number 2, at gmail.com
W- Okay, see you on the internet, Jenni!
J- Bye Wudan!
[outtro]
