Creating Your Own Podcast Production Network with Amy Westervelt

SEASON 8, EPISODE 7

Starting a new publication or production network has long been a big dream for many freelance journalists. Some have become disenfranchised with the status quo of how publications are run and are contemplating striking out on their own. Others see an opportunity to fill a niche that's been overlooked. But what does it take to bring a new media company from idea to execution?

In this episode, Wudan talks with Amy Westervelt.

Amy is an award-winning investigative journalist working in print and audio who covers accountability and the climate crisis. She’s been working as a freelancer for over 20 years, and has written for NPR, Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and more. In 2017, she founded a podcast production company, Critical Frequency, which is home to multiple award-winning podcasts, including Drilled and Damages.

Amy and Wudan dive into the nitty-gritty of funding a new network and setting up a team.

Full Transcript Below:

Wudan Yan- Hello, everyone. Welcome back to The Writers' Co-op. I am your host and executive producer, Wudan Yan. Y'all, if you're tuning in for this episode, you are in for a treat. I generally try and maintain some semblance of objectivity for presenting episodes for listeners. But recording this episode was honestly such a delight. So get excited and get ready. Today, we're going to talk about what it's like to build your own publication or a podcast production network. I feel like this is a question that often comes up. Especially if you work in media, you look around, see a niche that is overlooked, or see that so many of the standard or traditional models of funding journalism are just broken, like advertising, and you think it would be a good idea to strike out on your own. I know this has been a very big dream for lots of reporters. And it's led to the creation of some really good ideas like Defector, which was founded by a bunch of reporters who quit Deadspin, which is really, really reliant on advertisements to fund the publication's business model. Quite honestly, over the last few years, people have also asked me if I would ever start a magazine, which, as somebody who has started now multiple businesses, still seems like a gargantuan undertaking to me. But this season is all about dreaming big and thinking expansively. So let's dive into how to start your own media company. To talk about how to bring such ideas into the world, I asked Amy Westervelt to come on the show. Amy is an award-winning investigative journalist working in print and audio. She covers accountability and the climate crisis and has been working as a freelancer for over 20 years. Her work has appeared in NPR, Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal and more. In 2017, she founded a podcast production network called Critical Frequency, which is home to multiple award-winning podcasts. Drilled, for instance, is a true crime series about environmental issues and Damages is all about climate litigation cases. Critical Frequency also produces other high-caliber, serialized narrative podcasts such as Unfinished: Short Creek and Season 2 of This Land, which was nominated for a Peabody Award in 2022. I wanted Amy in particular to come on the show, because she's so thoughtful about money. After all, that's what her investigations are about: following the money, who's funding who and why. Of course, money, too, plays such a big part in sustaining a business, especially one as expensive and valuable as podcasting. I know all of this because, well, I've worked with Amy since 2020. I've been fact-checking her shows, such as Drilled, Damages and This Land, so I've gotten into a glimpse into how she works and how she thinks and what her values are. Before we dive into today's episode, did you know that we have an online community for The Writers' Co-op. If you're looking to do big things in your freelance business this year, or just crave ongoing support from a welcoming, safe, inclusive space, come join The Writers' Co-op Slack community. Hundreds of members are sharing their best practices and tips when it comes to running their freelance businesses. And I really can't overstate how important it is to have a psychologically-safe community to help bounce ideas around. You can sign up today at the All-Access level on Patreon to get a link to join. That's at patreon.com/TWCpod. Okay, enough for me. Here's Amy. Hi, Amy. Welcome to The Writers' Co-op. It's a pleasure to have you here.

Amy Westervelt - Thank you. It's — I'm so excited to be here.

Wudan- So I already will make a disclaimer about this on the show, butut we collaborate together—

Amy- Yes

Wudan- —on podcasts and other projects. And so it's fun to be able to dig into the business side of things rather than, like, the the terrible things that terrible actors are doing to perpetuate misinformation about the climate crisis.

Amy- Yes, yes, it's true. I know. I feel like usually, we're like trying to catch someone in a lie...Yeah.

Wudan- Now we're gonna talk about business. So to start, Amy, why don't you tell us your career story?

Amy- Okay, it's a little bit meandering, but I, um—let's see. I was born in a — no, I'm just kidding. Um, you know, like, I feel like my — every time we talk about my career story, it's basically like, I needed to pay rent. So I did this thing. And then there's like a series of things that happen. But you know, I was graduating from university with like, I didn't have a ton of debt because I had a Pell Grant, and I worked through school and I went to like a public university. And, you know, I'm old, so like, it was not that crazy. It was like, you know, the cost of of university was just not as wild as it is now. But nonetheless, I, you know, I needed to get a job like the day after I graduated. So I applied to a bunch of different things, and I got a job at a magazine that could only have existed in like dot-com San Francisco. It was a print magazine about online shopping. It was called Shop Online 123. I'm not even kidding. That was the name of the magazine. And it was a companion to Better Homes and Gardens. You will not be surprised to hear that it did not ever actually see the light of day. After, after like working on the first episode for — I mean, I am not even kidding, almost a year. Everyone — I mean, there were like five people getting paid a full-time salary to make this thing. And we were like, I mean, it was ridiculous. They were like, yeah, this is a bad idea. It never got put out. But I was like, you know, I had actually never even thought about working in journalism, or media, or magazines or anything. And I enjoyed it. It was fun. So I got a job at like an arts and culture magazine. And then there again, it was like, this wild experience, where I was hired as an intern, like a low-level intern. And I showed up to work one day, and no one was there, because the entire staff had quit. Because the publisher was, like, a megalomaniac. You know, the classic publisher story you hear in media. And everyone just got fed up one day and quit en masse. He was like, you and the other intern are gonna be the two interim managing editors.

Wudan- What a promotion.

Amy- I know. And like, it was like very Hunger Games-style too, where he was like, whichever one of you I liked the most after the month will, like, get the job. And we were both kind of like, does anyone really want job? Anyways, the next day, the other intern was like five minutes late. And so she got fired. So I became the de facto managing editor of this magazine. And I was like 23 or something? 24, maybe. You know, the publisher was like, "Great, talk to our creative director. He's already mapped out the next issue. It's fine, blah, blah, blah." So I talked to this guy who, I was in San Francisco, he was in New York, and he was like, "Yeah, we're gonna do a politics issue. We're going to interview Ralph Nader and Noam Chomsky," and all this stuff. And I was like, "Wow, that's great. So, like, who's doing those interviews? When can we I expect them in?" All of that stuff. He was like, "Oh, none of it's actually been scheduled yet." It's like, "Oh, okay. And when does the magazine go to press?" and he was like, "In three weeks."

Wudan- Oh, my God.

Amy- So. I, I don't know, I feel like I was just like, too young and inexperienced to know any better. But we did it. We pulled it off. We secured interviews with Ralph Nader and Noam Chomsky and got this like whole issue out. It was actually really fun, although stressful, and again, I was like, oh, I like this. It's fun making a magazine. And this was like, you know, very old school. Like, we would put all the pages up on the wall. And like, I would go to the printers to do a press check. And like, check the cover stock of the magazine, and all of that kind of stuff. So it was really, like, I was involved in every single part of making it, which was cool. And I got to interact with a bunch of different writers and all that stuff. So anyway, eventually, I also hit my limit with the publisher.

Wudan- Shocker.

Amy- And quit in spectacular fashion. I quit by like chucking my office keys at him and storming out the door. And the next day, he called me. Like, I didn't go to work, obviously. And he called me at like noon to be like, "Where are you?" And I was like, "I quit." And he's like, "Oh, come on. We can fight and get over it. It's fine." And I was like, "No, dude. I don't want to work there anymore." But I also was living in San Francisco and like, needed to pay rent in two weeks. So, I — a friend of mine was, was working for an engineering firm, and he was like, "I have this job for you that you could do. It'll pay fast, but it's like really boring." I'm like, "That's fine. I'll do it." And the job was writing case studies for them. And one of those case studies was a job that they had done for Shell where they had helped them figure out how to re-engineer offshore oil platforms to deal with sea level rise. And it was in like the late 90s. And I was like, wait a minute. I'm pretty sure that Shell was not even acknowledging that, like, climate change was going to be an issue in the 90s. Um. And I looked into it, and sure enough, they weren't. And so I was like, this is a good story. So I pitched it to a little, like, very small local environmental magazine that no longer exists. And they went for it. And I wrote it, and, and then I just became obsessed with like that entire line of reporting for like, the next 20 years.

Wudan- Okay, there are two interesting things that really stand out to me is: One, very early on in your career, you kind of became disenfranchised with, like, the status quo of how publications were run. And two: You also got very high level managerial experience, however lucky that was to oversee the production of publications. And I feel like, do you see those as like setting yourself up to do what you do now with Critical Frequency?

Amy- Yeah, totally. It gave me this great experience to a) like, have to manage a bunch of people. But also like to see all of the different like things that went into making a publication and be like, oh, like, yeah, I can, like—it's, I don't know, I think it gave me this idea that you can figure anything out. And nothing is like that complicated. I was like, I mean, if I could do it when I was 23, I could do it now. You know? So even like, with when I got into radio, same kind of thing. I was like, you know, I had been freelancing for a while. And I was driving around listening to NPR and was feeling like, oh, I wish I could work for NPR. And I was like, oh, well, I'm sure there's like a member station near me that I could go work for for a while and figure it out. And so yeah, I, I sent them an email that was like, would you like an over-aged intern? And they were like, yes, actually, you know, we've been wanting to do more climate and environment stuff. And it's a lot harder for us to find people with a reporting background than an audio — like than it is to train people how to use audio equipment. So like, come on in. This this was my nearest NPR member station at the time was in Reno, Nevada, which is a wild place to be a community reporter. There's like, there are so many things going on. So they trained me for like a month. I was basically a volunteer, and they showed me how to do everything. And then they hired me as a community reporter. So I was doing community radio reporting for the local NPR station in Reno and still like freelancing doing print climate pieces. This was like around the time that Serial had just launched, and people were getting really into, you know, reported narrative audio. And I was starting to do radio, and I was understanding like, wow, the average NPR—I mean, for — to do like a four-minute news feature, which is sort of the standard NPR news story, you collect, like, 10 hours' worth of audio. And almost all of it gets cut, because you just need to trim it down to, you know, just the facts, and maybe a few cool sound scenes. But that's it. You know, there's not a lot of like characters or story arcs or anything. So I started thinking like, oh, man, why aren't there narrative climate shows, because there's so many stories in that realm? And I started kind of looking for, for what that could be. And then I actually, I got assigned to do a print story on climate litigation. So I was in San Francisco. There was this, like, one of the—there are now, you know, 40 of these climate liability cases, where towns and cities and states are suing fossil fuel companies for their role in delaying climate action. And the argument is basically that that delay has made it more expensive to adapt to climate change. And therefore, these cities are, you know, facing a budget shortfall that oil companies should fill because it's their fault that, you know, it's taken this long. There's a lot more legalese to it, but that's roughly the argument. And there was one judge in San Francisco who wanted to have a climate science tutorial. He asked for this. This guy's, like, he's kind of like known as an eccentric judge. Like, he apparently he taught himself to code to oversee a case about Oracle, and he had a whole like one-day workshop on self-driving cars to do a case that was related to a Tesla claim. So he — this is like not that uncommon for him, I guess. So he asked for a climate science tutorial. And he really wanted both sides to present on sort of like, what, like what science was known when. So it was more of a history of science tutorial. People were talking about it like it was going to be a Scopes Monkey Trial for climate, you know. It got really hyped up. And so I got to the courthouse early so I could get a seat. And then I was like, "Oh, this is it." Like, there's this eccentric judge and all of the scientists who are, like, being, you know, very quirky and amusing. And there's like, the activist with their "Exxon Knew" T-shirts. Then there's the oil company lawyers who are being super smarmy. Like, I actually, I actually overheard an Exxon lawyer, like, joking about how the environmental lawyers were staying at a crappy hotel and being like mwahahahaha. You know? You couldn't, like, cast it better. And at the time, like, true crime was taking off, too. So I was like, oh, I'm gonna do like a true crime legal drama about climate change. And I also felt like the, the Exxon knew story, I was like, wow, you know, this series of stories came out where Inside Climate News and the Los Angeles Times and Columbia Journalism School published all these documents that hadn't been published before, where Exxon scientists were doing a bunch of research on climate change, and warning, you know, executives about it in the 70s, and 80s. A, it reminded me of my like, early Shell case study. I was like, ah, so interesting. But also, I was like, I can't believe this story hasn't gotten even more pickup, like, outside of kind of climate circles. And I thought, well, maybe if I can find some of these Exxon scientists and get them to talk to me, it can be like compelling to hear people on tape. Plus, I felt like audio, in a weird way, it's like a helpful way for people to understand the importance of certain documents.

Wudan- Mhm.

Amy- Like, it's not really what you would think. But yeah, sometimes having someone like read a line from a document is more impactful than like someone seeing it on a website. So yeah, I had this idea for a true crime podcast about climate change, which eventually became the podcast Drilled. And I pitched it to everyone. Like at the time, I had started Critical Frequency with a friend of mine who worked also at Reno Public Radio, because we had made a podcast about—kind of like using all of our tape that we didn't get to use in our stories. We were just like, there's so many characters in Reno. And like, at the time, podcasting was really focused on like New York, and a little bit Chicago, because of you know, This American Life and whatnot. But like, it was very East Coast focused. And we were like, there's all these, these wild stories in the West that aren't getting told. So we had this show called Range. And it was stories of the new American West. And we were—it was like, we did it, we did an episode in like, I want to say 2014 or something, on the cult of Tesla. This was like, so far before everyone else realized that it was weird, you know? But we also did, like we did an episode on the legal brothels in Nevada, the Cowboy Poetry Festival, like all kinds of you know, Western stuff, but also tech things and general like kind of West Coast culture stuff. So we were doing that, and then we were helping a few other people make their podcasts, and we had kind of created this network, really just to get attention from the podcast apps. Because at the time, if you wanted your, your stuff to be featured by like Apple or Spotify, or whatever, they were much more open to it if you were a network than if you were just an independent show. So—

Wudan- oh

Amy- —a fewthat's—that's like, that was kind of—we didn't, I never was like, "I want to start a podcast company. It was like "Oh, they seem to like it when you're a company."

Wudan- That's so interesting.

Amy- Let's be a company

Wudan- So Critical Frequency, in its current form, I think on the website says it launched in 2017. And I'm—

Amy- Yeah.

Wudan- —if I'm remembering correctly, like that Serial early podcast boom was like 2013, 2014. Right?

Amy- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wudan- So what did it take to go from idea to execution?

Amy- Yeah, so for the network stuff, I mean, it was just a lot of us like just doing projects we thought were interesting. You know? It was like, we made this one podcast then. You know, I had an idea for another podcast, and we made that. And then a friend of ours came to us with an idea. So we — it was a lot of like trial and error, which you could do at that time, because we, well a) we both had day jobs as reporters. And then we had access to a studio. The, like, the station let us use the studio. So that was cool. And we had time, you know? So. And we loved making audio projects. So it was sort of like a labor of love for a little bit. And then when I had the idea for Drilled, it felt like, Okay, if we want to do like a real deal narrative podcast, then we're going to need more money and like support from a bigger company or whatever. And I, I pitched it to all of the big companies and networks at the time. And they all told me that they just didn't think there was a big enough audience to warrant the budget for a narrative show on climate. Because narrative podcasts in general, the budget is like between 200,000—and that's like very, keeping it real lean—to more like 3 to 350,000 for a season, you know, for like, say, an 8-part season. So they were like, we just don't think we can get enough people listening that'll bring in the ad revenue that will justify that. And I was just convinced that they were wrong. So after like a year of trying to get—you know, like, I probably had the idea for Drilled in like 2016 or so it took a while, like I I realized quickly why there wasn't already a narrative climate show. Because as much as I was like, there's so many stories, I couldn't really think of one for a while. You know, that would work that was like, character-driven and more narrative. And that would break out of the sort of talking about policy or talking about science thing. So yeah, I had the idea of trying to pitch it to a bunch of people. That didn't work. Pitched it to one of the Rockefeller Foundations for a grant and got a small grant to sort of like test it out. But it was like, around $30,000, so definitely about 1/10 of the actual budget of a narrative show. And I just made it myself, like in my car at night, and I had a friend who was an audio engineer who I paid on contract to do—he was a musician, too. So he kind of like, just created some of the music beds and did all of the production. And it was just the two of us. And we put it out. And we got a million listeners in our first season. So I was like—

Wudan- Wow

Amy- There is an audience, people. And I was right. And you were wrong.

Wudan- So satisfying.

Amy- Yes. Initially, I thought we would just do like a limited run series, but a) it did well, so I was like, okay, well, people are interested. But also, I had like five other season ideas, just in the course of making that one. So we're now finishing up Season 10. And have, you know, at least three or four ideas kicking around for next seasons too. So that enabled us to get advertisers. And it also like, around the time maybe like a couple years after we launched, there were a couple of big scandals in podcasting, which I'm sure you will remember.

Wudan- Oh, yeah.

Amy- That had to do with fact-checking. So there was like the Caliphate scandal, where, you know, the New York Times made a whole podcast about a story that turned out to be fake, which is pretty crazy.

Wudan- A whole podcast, yes.

Amy- A whole podcast. It was like really popular. Like, it won a bunch of awards. It like did really well. And then this like huge scandal came out. So all a lot of podcast companies suddenly were like, oh, if we're doing reported shows, maybe they actually need to be, like, properly reported and fact-checked and like all of that kind of stuff. Which, it's wild that they really were not thinking that way before then. I remember like, we did a show with Stitcher, right before the Caliphate scandal broke, actually. We were working on it with them. And I had like a very senior-level person. I was like, wait, I don't think this line is accurate. Like, it's conflating two things, you know, and, and it was not, you know, it didn't—wasn't like a huge issue, but it's just like, I mean, if you know that something's not accurate, you should make it accurate, you know? And she was like, yeah, but like, it doesn't really change the story whether this is accurate or not. So who cares? Like it doesn't matter. And I was like, oh my god. So anyway, because, because that was like such a prevalent attitude, and then there were, like, a bunch of problems as a result, there was a period of time there where a lot of podcast companies were hiring folks like us to like check the reporting, help out with the reporting, help to manage the reporting, all of that. So there was like a new revenue stream doing production services. But honestly, I mean, the podcast industry is wild, because I feel like it completely changes every year.

Wudan- Yes.

Amy- And like, it's definitely been, I don't know, I feel like it's been, I guess, like, yeah, good that I've—like, my entire career has been kind of like figuring things out on the fly. So I guess it's been preparing me for this, you know,

Wudan- Yeah.

Amy- Like being really adaptable and like, being able to do lots of different things at the same time. And yeah, I feel like I'm still doing that.

Wudan- Yeah. I want to talk about the funding question, because you mentioned it, and so many traditional podcast production networks, use ad revenue to fund. And it took, you know, way longer than I would think for networks to realize that people listening to a deeply-reported narrative show like Serial, like Stolen, which won a Pulitzer, like Drilled, are not going to pause their listening, go to Me Undies, and like, enter a code with their discount. Like, I'm like, how did that take so long? So tell me a little bit about how networks are traditionally funded? And how you decided what kind of funding model you wanted for Critical Frequency?

Amy- Yeah, yeah. Actually, this is like, I hope useful, because I feel like I've made like every mistake and had like, every big problem happen. And it's, it's, like helped me become just a little bit like more resilient, I think, on that front, too. So initially, you know, we had good luck with ad sales initially, because they're really like, we're not any climate shows that weren't just like a person interviewing politician or a scientist, you know? So, we had people kind of coming out of the woodwork asking to advertise, and that was great. And then we also had a pretty good, engaged audience that we were able to monetize, you know, into subscribers. So we started a Patreon pretty early, and we had advertisers. So we started out with that. And then because we had gotten that initial grant, you know, I went back to those folks to see about getting more money. And this was like, my first big lesson in the funding sphere, which was like, don't put all your eggs in one basket. Because we, we went to like a few different climate funders. And one of them was like, yeah, like, we really want you guys to do more podcast seasons, but we also want you to start a website. And, you know, you guys could be doing this, that and the other. And I was like, great. Like, I'd love to do that. And so we got, I think it was like, $150,000 grant from a climate foundation. I'm not going to tell you which one. And you'll know why in a minute. But you know, it was sort of like to do one more season of the podcast, plus launch a website component, and you know, a newsletter and all this stuff, right? So I hired people and had all these big plans. And then, like, a few things happened, where I was like, ooo, I feel like this is a bad situation, where like, first someone from the foundation was trying to tell us like, not to do a particular story, which I was like, eehhh.

Wudan- Immediate red flag. Yeah.

Amy- Immediate red flag. Yeah. And then I found out that someone was talking to like a production company about making a documentary version of Drilled, but like, had not included me in any of those conversations. I mean, it was totally wild, because I had a friend who was working at that company who was like—that's how I found out. It was completely happenstance. She was just like, "I'm so excited. We're gonna be working on the documentary of Drilled." I was like, what?

Wudan- Yeah.

Amy- And then at the, like, around the same time, I saw these ads floating around on social media that we're using, like Drilled branding and audio, but were connecting it to like a campaign that the nonprofit was doing.

Wudan- Woah

Amy- And I was like, whoa, like, what are you doing? You know, I don't harbor any like ill will about this. I think that they just didn't understand like how media works. And like the difference between a comms effort that your nonprofit is doing and like an independent journalism project and whatever. But at the time, I was just like, you know what, we can figure out the niceties later. Like, I need to put a stop to this. This is really bad. So I talked to like our editor that I had hired too and decided to give the grant back.

Wudan- Wow. Oh my God.

Amy- So I was like, this is just not good. Like, we're gonna give the money back. Some of it had been spent. And, you know, we talked to them about like, look, here's what's happened. Here's the situation. Dah dah dah. And kind of worked out that we would send what was left back, and, you know, no hard feelings, but it just like wasn't what either of us thought it was gonna be and whatever. And then two weeks later, the pandemic lockdown happened. And I was like, damn you and your ethics, Westervelt. So we had to kind of hustle, like, bring in more, more revenue through services. So like doing these, like production contracts for other companies or reporting contracts, or like consulting, things like that. I was like doing additional freelance jobs, just so that—because I also was like, I didn't want to lay off people that I had committed to in a pandemic.

Wudan- Were they full-time or contract?

Amy- They were contract, but on like, 30-hour-a-week retainer, so it was like—

Wudan- Got it. Yeah,

Amy- —most of their income. And then one case, the person had like, a really unfortunate health thing happen in the midst of all of this, too. So I was just like, I, I just was like, I'm just gonna have to like freelance, my ass off, so I can keep everybody paid. Which is what I did. And it worked—you know, it was like, it was not a pleasant time in my life. But like, we managed it. And it was a very good lesson. I now have it so like, our revenue is never more than 50% grants. In some ways, I'm like, maybe I should change this rule, because it would be nice to have like, one large sum of money for a period of time, but I also am just so worried about any one entity feeling like they can dictate what we're doing or like, have a lot of influence over it or anything like that. And like, in the climate space in particular, I don't know, I feel like it's important because there are a bunch of outlets that I feel like do have too much influence from their sponsors. I don't know, it makes you beholden it in a way that I don't feel like we are, because I can always—I'm like, I have like five other revenue streams that I can lean on, if someone starts being a dick, which feels good, you know? Like,

Wudan- Yes.

Amy- In the same way that I, you know, I'm like, I am still very much the person who like threw her office keys at her boss and stormed out. Like, I need to be able to do that.

Wudan- Mhm. Mhm. If foundations are topping up and no more than 50%, where else is that funding coming from?

Amy- It's a mix of advertising services, subscribers. We have like a pretty, pretty high subscriber rate. And actually, another thing that we just sort of tested out, and I was shocked by, is like, we started a newsletter at a certain point, and it was really like, honestly very half-assed, very much like, everybody was like, you have to have a newsletter. Okay, fine. We have a newsletter. I assumed it would only be people who are listening to the podcast that would even sign up for the newsletter. And we've realized that it's like an entirely different audience.

Wudan- Yep.

Amy- Completely different. Like there's almost no crossover. That was true when we started doing Hot Take, too. So like, with that podcast, it was like we were hearing from people that they liked the narrative stuff. They liked the reporting, but they wanted a like, less formal, more like chatty show. And they also wanted something that was casual about climate change, which I think a lot of people find difficult to do. So Mary Heglar and I started this show. And there again, like we, a) we we had way more people listening to it than I expected, because it was pretty—I felt like it was pretty niche. And I was like, no one's gonna want to listen to us. But we ended up getting like, we pretty regularly had like 20 to 30,000 downloads per episode, which is pretty good for a climate show. And then we started a newsletter. And again, like, I think there was maybe like, 10% of the people were listeners of the podcast, and everybody else just like, was a subscriber to the newsletter. You know?

Wudan- Yep.

Amy- So we've got the newsletter, the podcast subscriptions, we still have advertisers, although that has definitely declined a lot this year. We still do services and like consulting for other podcasts, other sometimes like TV and film projects, too. We'll want some kind of consulting on climate or climate storytelling or things like that. Then the grants. And then we are starting to explore optioning stories for TV and film. That has not materialized into like, a substantial amount of money, but we're testing it out, you know, to see. And then licensing. We're starting to do like a little bit of educational curricula and trying to come up with products basically related to that stuff that we can license to either nonprofit groups that are doing trainings or universities, or like, I've done a couple of curricula for journalism, educational, you know, organizations. Stuff like that, too. So kind of always, always hustlin', Wudan.

Wudan- Oh I know. I know. It's very diversified.

Amy- Yeah.

Wudan- And you know, as you're talking about all these things that Critical Frequency is offering, I think the question that I have in my mind is, is there something about being under accompany that you can do more than an individual?

Amy- I think that like it—yeah, I mean it, it allows us to do, I think, like more different types of things. And also to show that like, like, sometimes people will come to—like, actually, this happened with Crooked and the This Land project, where they came to us to, like build a team. And because we've done so many different types of projects as Critical Frequency, it was like, oh, yeah, of course, we can do that. Versus like, just coming to me alone, I feel like it would be less—people would be less inclined to be like, oh, yeah, like that one person can build out our team and a whole,like, our process, and you know, all of that kind of thing too. Plus, we still offer like with—under Critical Frequency, we can do, you know, podcast production, distribution, marketing, all of that kind of stuff, too. So there is, there are still shows that—that was like, part of the reason that we became a network in the first place was not just for our own shows to like, get the attention of the apps, but also because it was it was at this time where like, there was a ton of consolidation happening in the podcast space. We had like the total, you know, dumb luck of just starting, like slightly earlier than a lot of other people. Like, really, it was like six months, you know, where like, I was able to, you know, meet the person who decides what to feature at Apple, like at a conference. And she wasn't mobbed by 100 other people, you know.

Wudan- Mhm. Mhm.

Amy- So like, I had built these relationships. And I was like, there's literally no reason that I have these relationships instead of someone who like just started, except that I happened to, like, you know, get there slightly before them. And it's becoming harder and harder and harder to reach these people and build those relationships. So like, I wanted to kind of be able to give that to other people too. And we still do that, like, there are still shows that all I do is like, help them connect to the apps and like get featured and, you know. Or like, help them figure out how to put together their pitch for a production company or whatever. I don't know, I shouldn't even talk about that stuff in a business way. Mostly, I just do it for free. Because I just feel like, I don't know, I don't like the idea of like gatekeeping in media. And that was the thing that like I loved about the podcast industry when I first started in it, was that it was really like a pretty low bar to entry. And that's kind of gone away. Although, I don't know. But yeah, I mean, I'm still learning like I just had this thing happened with all these funders in the last couple of months, where I had like three grants that were supposed to all come at the same time, and they were all late at the same time. And like, I wasn't expecting it. And you know, so now I'm like, oh another lesson. Another lesson to never like—

Wudan- Yeah, it's such an interesting balance. Because, you know, like for people who are full-time freelancing, but have visions of growing a team, building an agency, starting a publication, it's like, yeah, at one point, you can just start, only think about yourself, when you're a team of one. But when you build out something bigger, you're responsible for more people and there is an emotional—

Amy- Yeah.

Wudan- —and financial, of course weight to it. And I'm just curious, like, how does that sit and land with you and how do you manage that?

Amy- Yeah, I would say that's like the, the most stressful thing is like, being responsible for other people's financial stability is very, very stressful. And I have like a weird thing. Yeah, I don't know what this is. I feel like this is just like, some kind of childhood thing or something where I'm just like, like, if I'm too comfortable that like, that's bad, you know? So I get into the habit often of like, offering people like too much before I know exactly how it's gonna work or overcommitting before, like, I've actually worked with someone for long enough to know whether it's going to work out. So I feel like I'm, I'm still learning those things. I think that is the part that makes me like, once a quarter be like, maybe I should just chuck it all in and like go be a librarian. Or like, go work for someone else. Like, why can't someone else just hire me? You know?

Wudan- Yes, yes. So I'm curious: On a daily basis, how much of you are like, Amy Westervelt, doing journalism versus Amy Westervelt being a manager?

Amy- Probably, like, I would say I probably spend like three days a week managing and doing operational stuff. And like two days a week doing journalism. I try to like organize it by days, because it's, it's just not great for me to shift between those two mindsets in the same day. Like, I'm not very good at it.

Wudan- Yeah

Amy- You know? Especially if I'm — if I'm just doing like an interview or something, then it's fine. Or even like research, but if I'm writing either a script or a story, then I can't. Like I, if I have to shift over and like, look at a budget spreadsheet, forget it. It's not coming back, you know? So

Wudan- Yeah

Amy- So yeah. And then also, actually, the thing that I was not really prepared for — and I should have been because of, course, like, people are people but like — there is a lot of, of management that is like, just sorting out personality stuff too, you know?

Wudan- Oh yeah.

Amy- Especially if you have like, a few reporters working on a project together. Or like, yeah, I don't know, that stuff actually like takes up a lot of time. But I also feel like part of it is just kind of trial and error and getting to a place where you have the right team, too. And then then that stuff becomes very easy.

Wudan- Mhm.

Amy- So yeah, I feel like we're like pretty close to, to being there right now, which is nice.

Wudan- That's awesome.

Amy- There are these like magical moments. Like, I feel like the team we had for This Land was one of them where I was just like, I love this team. It's like everything's working, and I love everyone and like, but even then, like there were certain things that had to be worked out, you know? So yeah, and then dealing with, like, the funding side of things, I hate. I don't like, you know, writing grant proposals. I'm just not good at schmoozing. I'm not good at, like, pretending.

Wudan- Mhm. Mhm.

Amy- So, so like having to, to, like, be in meetings with people or big convenings with funders and things like that is like not, it's not my strong suit, I would say. But it unfortunately, like a lot of times, I think, especially with certain types of funders, depending on like what their interest is, if they're like a Drilled fan, for example, then there's like a whole weird thing where they're — they like want to meet me because they like Drilled as well.

Wudan- Oh yeah, the fanboys and the fangirls.

Amy- Then I can't — it's like, yeah, I don't know. It's very — it's definitely like a weird—

Wudan- Yeah

Amy- —a weird, whole extra job.

Wudan- So it sounds like you need a sales or a chief financial officer. Who else is on your team right now?

Amy- Yes, I have a senior editor. So Molly Taft is our like, lead reporter. The way that we're kind of organized right now actually is by investigation. So like, she's focused on a particular investigation that we've been working on. And then Alleen Brown, who is amazing, and like, she was just gonna work on one project with me, but now it's, it's just turning into like a long-term thing, because I love her. She's a great reporter and editor. She was working on our anti-protest series for a long time but is continuing to work on a related investigation. And then Mary Annaïse Heglar, who is also doing some editing, kind of on the more narrative, print side of things. Then we have our sound designer, Martin, and our audio engineer, Peter. So that's, let's see, like five people on the core team. And then Sarah Ventre is still our senior producer for podcasts as well. And then we have, let's see, I'm gonna—I'm counting on my fingers. So thats — there's like 1,2,3,4,5 reporters who are on contract, on like a year-long contract, that are freelance. So it's—so I've been doing this more lately where I'm just putting people on a, like a reporting retainer instead of doing story contracts. Because a lot of the stuff that we're doing is like, longer term, and we might want to do both a story and a podcast with it. And like the person that's doing the reporting might not end up being the person that does those final products. Not because they can't, but just because like, of how our team is structured, you know? Or because it's like a print person who isn't super interested in like learning how to do a podcast, you know? So yeah, we've got five of those people that are in Europe, India, Africa, Australia, and Latin America, because we're trying to do more of these, like, cross-border investigations.

Wudan- Super cool.

Amy- Yeah, it's been great. It's like—it's such a good way to do stories. I like I, I kind of like, accidentally, we did this with a story, where we were looking at Exxon's project in Guyana, and we had a reporter there. And because of COVID, we couldn't go to Guyana. So we ended up having her become more—like more a part of the team than we initially thought ,and it went on for a longer time. But because of that, like I was telling her stuff that Exxon was doing, you know, in the US and in the UK, and all these other places, and she was telling me like what they were doing on the ground in Guyana. And like, just being able to do that, we found so many more things than we would have. And I was like, why aren't we doing all our stories like this? This is a global industry. And these are like multinational companies.

Wudan- Yeah.

Amy- It makes no sense to be siloed.

Wudan- Yeah. That's so cool. And helps with the not doing parachute journalism, so to speak.

Amy- Exactly.

Wudan- Yeah

Amy- Exactly.

Wudan- Mhm. So Amy, to wrap up, I just wanted to hear your best advice, perhaps for freelancers who are jaded with media as it exists and want to strike out and come up with their own publication or production network as you have, what would you tell them as it relates to business or elsewise?

Amy- So two things. One, I think that media is hard. It's, it's kind of always been hard, and it's probably not gonna get easier. So like, if you think that starting your own thing will make it more stable. Probably not. However, it does give you more control. And like, it does give you a much, I think, like a much easier way to see what's coming. Like I, I'm kind of like, oh, I kind of have a sense of what's coming next year. So we can prepare for it in a way that I don't feel like I had when I was just freelancing. So there's that benefit. And then I would also say: Focus on the work. Like, make the thing that you want to make, and not just the thing that you think will sell. Because I think a lot of, like, a lot of advice for people in media focuses on like, what you can sell, and how to market yourself and all that stuff. And like, that's all important, but like, none of that is going to help if you're not making something that you actually want to make. I'm married to someone who's like an efficiency consultant who worked in Japan for automotive companies, right? So like the Toyota way is deeply embedded in him. And for years, he was like, we should do this for our lives. I was like, I want your spreadsheet the fuck away from me, sir. Get out of here with your efficiency. But eventually, he wore me down, and I did it. And I like I had this crazy realization that I was like, oh, like, I'm spending all of my time just trying to, like, sell what I think people want. And like, so I started just putting aside like three hours a week to focus on, like something that I just was interested in or just wanted to write. And like, duh, those ended up being really good stories that more people wanted.

Wudan- Mhm.

Amy- So it was a really good reminder that, like, all these logistical things and marketing things are very, very necessary and good. But you also have to know like, what you actually want to do. Like, what is the unique thing that you want to bring out? And like cultivate that.

Wudan- Yes, the work comes first.

Amy- Yeah, exactly.

Wudan- Well, Amy, this has been a delight and so much fun. I think listeners will be so excited to hear about the story of Critical Frequency and the work that you've been doing and all—yeah, it's, it's a lot that you do behind the scenes to get shows into our ears and podcast queues.

Amy- Yay. Thank you. Sorry, I've once again cursed too much.

Wudan- Thanks so much to Amy Westervelt for coming on the show. You can see follow her on Twitter or X @AmyWestervelt, on LinkedIn, or subscribe to Damages, Drilled and her other podcasts projects on the listening platform of your choice. If you've loved this episode, be sure to subscribe to The Writers' Co-op. We've still got a few episodes remaining this season that takes you behind the scenes of companies built by freelancers who dared to dream big. If you want to continue the conversation from this episode, well Patreon members are already there. They are discussing this episode on our psychologically-safe and inclusive Slack channel. So join us sign up anytime at patreon.com/TWCpod. Thank you so much for listening to The Writers' Co-op. This season is written, hosted and executive produced by me, Wudan Yan. Thshow's producer is Margaret Osborne and our editor is Susan Valot.