Rate Increases and Price Ceilings with Kat Boogaard

SEASON 7, EPISODE 5

Determining rates can be really tricky for freelancers. We need our clients to agree to a price for a project, but we can’t sell ourselves short and leave money on the table. Naturally, freelancers might wonder: How much can I charge before I price myself out of work?

In this episode, Wudan talks to freelancer Kat Boogaard.

Kat is a Wisconsin-based writer focused on blog content for software clients in the productivity, project management, and business ownership spaces. You can follow her on Instagram and Twitter. Kat’s a high earner: In 2021, she grossed over $300k in income (netting over $175k after expenses) – which puts her effective hourly rates well above $100/h. Then, she welcomed a newborn last year and scaled back her work days even more, all while still earning six figures.

Kat and Wudan talk about growing earnings, asking for raises, and how to know whether we’re really testing the limit of what we are making.

Full Transcript Below:

Wudan Yan- Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Writers' Co-op. We are an anti-hustle business podcast for freelance creatives. And I'm Wudan. If we have not met yet, hello. I'm the host and executive producer of the show. This week, I'm excited to dig into a question that I see often while talking to my colleagues and perusing freelance groups, which is: How much can I charge for a project or client before I price myself out of work? If you're climbing a traditional career ladder, for instance, you'd expect to get paid something that's commensurate with your experience. So naturally, freelancers who have been at it for a while might rightfully ask: What is the ceiling for how much I can charge? Yeah, there's upward progression and very good reason to charge based on experience. But where might you end up plateauing in terms of rates? A few years back, a colleague of mine, Amanda Castleman, shared some advice about negotiating rates. She said, if you're not getting turned down as too expensive 40% of the time, you're probably underselling yourself. In other words, breaking into higher rates means that not everyone is going to be able to afford you. And freelancing doesn't have many truths. But this is one of them. You have to let go of the stuff that pays less in order to have more room for the work that pays more. But first, we should talk about pricing. Because we can't have a conversation about pricing yourself out of work without handling that first. Depending on what kind of writing or creative work you do, there's likely a certain convention already in place for your industry. So journalism, one industry that I work in, has enjoyed pricing using a per word rate. And you might see a lot of people heralding $1 a word as a good rate. But I would honestly disagree on that based on the complexity of the story and the fact that like $1 a word was considered a good rate 30 years ago. Commercial clients, on the other hand, might be more likely to use project fees for different pieces of content or marketing. If you're packaging a bunch of services together, project fees might also be favorable. And you're likely to see hourly rates for things like editing, podcasts, production. Day rates for photography, or video, and so on and so forth. So when we have an established pricing convention, there is a range of fees, low, mid and high end. And it will be quickly obvious where you are pricing on that scale, be a per word, per hour, or something else. So on the Writers' Co-op, we're a big fan of determining what our rates as individuals and businesses need to be. And you can work through a business plan as a self-led online course. And when you do, you'll notice that we have accounted for our life circumstances and expenses as influencing our rates, services and industries that we work with. And so put another way, our businesses' rates account for the complexity of our lives, in a way, because we need to be able to cover our expenses for the short and long term. If you work fewer hours because of caretaking duties, or live with chronic illness. Or if you're like me, and you actually need more time off than most to be the best worker possible, you still need to earn a good amount of money to survive. Your hourly rate is probably going to be pretty high, which also translates into how you price your business's services. All of that to say that like pricing is really complex and tricky. We need a client to be okay with the price of a project all thewhile not selling ourselves short and leaving money on the table. And we also need to work to run our businesses and live our lives so we can't actually price ourselves out of work. So here's the question, how can we grow our earnings in a strategic way that doesn't scare away clients? Are there even clients who can pay the rates we need when we intentionally need to make more in a year? And how do we really know if we're testing the limit of what we can be earning? To help us navigate these questions I brought on Kat Boogaard. Kat is a Wisconsin-based freelance writer focused on blog content for software clients in the productivity, project management, and business ownership spaces. Kat's a pretty high earner: In 2021, she grossed over $300,000 in income, which gave her 175k after her expenses. And then she welcomed a newborn last year and scaled back her workdays even more, all the while still earning six figures. Here's our conversation. Hi, Kat, thanks so much for coming on the Writers' Co-op. It's a pleasure to have you here.

Kat Boogaard- Yeah, of course. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited.

Wudan- Yeah, you've been a repeat guest and many ways and I'm stoked to dig into another element of freelancing that I don't think we've really touched upon just yet. So before we have that conversation, I want to hear about what brought you to freelancing and what your freelance work looks like right now.

Kat- Yeah, of course. So, I majored in college in communication and minored in journalism. So you know, writing was always kind of in the background or, you know, present in what I did. I graduated college in 2011, which is weird to say now. And came out of college into a job market kind of as things were post-recession and sort of dire. So took me a while to find a job as a receptionist. Did that for a couple months. Then worked full-time in marketing for about a year and a half, maybe two years. And I always tell people, I don't think my story is that unique in that I kind of craved a lot of the same things that you hear a lot of freelancers talk about in that I wanted more flexibility. I wanted more control. And so I thought about some of the projects I've always enjoyed, some of the things I've always been told I was good at. Writing was a common theme. So I quit my job and started my business in July of 2014 now and have been doing this pretty much ever since. And have done a bunch of different things during that time, probably like any freelancer would tell you. And today, I'm pretty much focused—I'm in the content marketing side of things rather than "true journalism." So I work mostly on blog content for software companies in the world of work, which encompasses, you know, productivity, project management, collaboration, business ownership, all that good stuff. So that's what I've been spending my time doing now.

Wudan- Nice. I don't think I knew that you started in 2014. I did as well.

Kat- Oh, awesome.

Wudan- Yeah! So it's kind of fun to hear about these parallel career trajectories.

Kat- Yeah.

Wudan- So today, Kat, I wanted to talk to you specifically about pricing. Pricing to the point of like, oh, my God, am I pricing myself out of work? But first, I want to back up a second, and, like, just hear your approach to pricing at different points of your career. Like, how do you price now, versus how did you do it, you know, kind of incrementally along the way?

Kat- Mhm. Yeah, this is a great question. So in the beginning, my approach to pricing pretty much looked like throwing a dart at a board. I was pretty much just guessing. And honestly, sometimes I still feel that way. Really early on, I had a contract doing, you know, like some social media management and press releases and a bunch of random stuff that I no longer offer. And I did that for a local organization. And I charged hourly for that. I can't even remember what hourly rate was. I want to say it was something like $20 or $25, an hour way back when. And I quickly realized that I hated hourly pricing. I like never knew how to account for like sending a single email or, you know, in any sort of creative field, you spend so much time thinking about something that like how do you bill for the time that I'm like in the shower thinking about XYZ. So I decided pretty early on hourly pricing was not right for me. I did not like having to keep track of that. I did not like having my income tied to my time, which was kind of what I was trying to avoid when I got out of a full-time job. So since then, I've pretty much always done project rates, where I'm charging, you know, a flat fee for a specific type of project that involves you know, some upfront work in making sure I get a clear idea of the scope, and what the client anticipates being involved so that I can price as accurately as possible. But most of the time now, I would say, since my first year or two, I have been flat project rates.

Wudan- Wow, that is really bold. And I agree with you on hourly pricing kind of being the devil, especially as you get more experienced. You start hitting hourly price ceilings, because a lot of those numbers might scare clients away. Whereas a project fee, as you mentioned, is a nice rounder number for a client and probably easier for them to wrap their head around too.

Kat- Yeah, definitely.

Wudan- So did you ever price in different ways? Like per word? Or did you explore any other options?

Kat- Not really. I pretty much just once I decided I didn't like hourly, I did pretty much project rates. There have been some exceptions. But in those cases, I'm not really the one setting the price. It's when I've worked with, you know, a publication or a client who just says like, our rate is $1 per word. And I just kind of accept that. So there have been kind of some times when I have billed per word or have had a couple clients who that's just how they price freelancers. They just come right into the agreement and say, we pay $1 per word, or we pay 50 cents per word or whatever it is. And I'll do it that way, if that seems to be like the set system that clients or publications have in place, but it's not like a proactive approach I've ever taken myself.

Wudan- That makes sense. And when you get a project rate, like what is your internal hourly rate that you're trying to hit to make a project or something worth it?

Kat- Yeah, it kind of depends. This is one area of pricing that I'm just still really bad at, because I am like so guilty of just the optimism bias and just now grossly underestimating how long things are going to take me. At this point, though, I'm like usually honestly trying to aim for like 150 to 200 per hour. But that kind of comes with some caveats that, you know, we might discuss later. And like, now I'm really good at knowing the work that I'm good at. And that like, isn't going to take me a ton of time and stress.

Wudan- Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, there naturally is some stuff that just you're faster at, and therefore more efficient. And then your hourly rate works better. I don't want to sound too creepy, but I did do some math, Kat, to try and figure out your hourly rate, especially because you've been so amazing and transparent in documenting your net income from 2022 and the year before, 2021. And even accounting for like unpaid time and invoice tracking and other stuff like that. Like, I could tell that it was pretty high, like 120 an hour and upwards. I, if I remember, that's what my math brought me to

Kat- See? So I wasn't too far off with my guess then. But I love the time to calculate that and I didn't.

Wudan- Well, I was just really curious, right? Because you, at one point built out a team, which I want to hear about, and then you scaled back but then your net earnings didn't differ that much. I want to hear about how you realized it was time to grow in that way. Why did you do that? And how did the addition of subcontractors, in essence, influence the rates that you were quoting clients?

Kat- So I love talking about subcontracting, because I think it so often gets talked about in like this "scale your business, like create an engine, and an empire" sort of context. And for me, like I approached subcontracting in that honestly, like my intention really wasn't to, like earn more and just sit on piles of cash. It was really to take on more, and that I felt like I was saying no to so many things that I really wanted to do and clients that I really wanted to work with simply because I'm one person and I didn't have time to serve all these clients or do these projects on my own. So I kind of knew it was time to grow and expand out when I felt like I was saying no to a lot. And I felt comfortable enough in my rates that I was charging high enough rates that I felt like I could fairly compensate a writer for a first draft but, you know, still take home enough to justify like, the time that I would spend on client management or editing or whatever. Not to say it was a perfect system. Like, I would have loved to pay my subcontractors even more. But I guess to segue into the money conversation, it really didn't majorly influenced my rates because, like I said, I knew I was ready to start subcontracting when I was already charging a rate that I felt like I could pay a sub and still keep a decent chunk for myself. So it didn't influence any existing client rates with recurring opportunities that I decided to subcontract. That said, like when I quoted new opportunities that I knew from the get go, that I was going to sub out, I went higher with my rates, mostly so that I could bump up rates for my subcontractors and not so that I could take home more. So I guess to sum it all up, it didn't directly influence existing rates. But when new opportunities came knocking, I was definitely more ambitious with what I would quote them.

Wudan- That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, to your point about subs being like a gateway to building an agency or empire, sometimes subs can just help you do your work more efficiently or help you scale like in in the way that you want, not necessarily to create something so much larger.

Kat- Mhm. Yeah, so true. It was nice. And I you know, I honestly, my transition into using subcontractors was really kind of slow and genuine in that like at first, they just helped me do initial research and outlines. And that went so well with some trusted subcontractors, I was like, you know what, let's have them take a crack at doing like a whole first draft for this, you know, SEO blog post or whatever. And that went great. And that was when I was kind of like, oh, this could really work for me.

Wudan- Can you give an example of like a sample project rate for a certain scope? Like how much would the sub take and how much would you be able to take home?

Kat- Yeah, so I usually tried to give the subs like, at the very least, 50% of the project rates. I would say for like a typical SEO blog post, it varied based on word count, but my subs were usually getting— trying to remember now because now it's been a while—probably somewhere in the range of like 300 to 500. And then I was maybe keeping like 200 to 400. But it like, again, it varied based on word count, topic, client. I did not have a perfect system in that regard in terms of things being super standardized across the board.

Wudan- Yeah, I don't even think there are lots of standards as to what the partition should be when you're the manager working with different subs too.

Kat- Mhm.

Wudan- And I've seen you say that that was really financially rewarding.

Kat- Because I was able to take on so much more, and I was obviously, you know, keeping a cut of what the subcontractors did, it was like by far my highest revenue year of freelancing, you know, so far. I think total I did just over $300,000 in like total revenue, of course, I didn't keep all that. But if you would have told me that number, when I started freelancing, like you would have had to pick my jaw up off the floor. So my net income was the highest too. Like you said, I was surprised, you know, once I stopped subcontracting a bit that my net income didn't take as huge of a hit as I thought. But yeah, it was a high-earning year. And I think beyond that, you know, it was financially rewarding for myself. But when I got to the end of the year, and looked at my profit and loss statement, I realized that I had paid over six figures to other freelance writers, like some of whom were really early in their own freelance journeys. And like, that was super rewarding in ways outside of my own bank account.

Wudan- Yeah, for sure. And so when you brought on those new clients with whom you would quote higher rates, did you like attribute those higher rates at all to the fact that you would be working with subcontractors or how much of that was transparent to the client?

Kat- So this is a question that I get a ton, is like, I think some people feel really shady about subcontracting. I was always really open with clients about the fact that like I was working with a team, and that I still had final say. I was still providing feedback and shaping the content. And, you know, they were my only—or I was their only point of contact. And like, I was still managing the whole process. But I was also super honest with clients about the fact that I had other people working on the content. And I always tell people, I did that more as a courtesy rather than a sense of obligation. Because the reality is, and I have talked to attorneys about this, like, I'm a business. I'm an LLC. Clients, like legally can't tell me how to get the work done. And they really can't prohibit me from hiring or deciding who works on it. Like, they don't have a say in how I run my business. So, you don't have to tell your clients that as some sort of legal obligation. I just personally felt like it made things easier in terms of the edit or revision process. If I wanted the sub to go back and fix something. And it just, it felt more honest and authentic to me. But I always caution people, it's not something you absolutely have to do, in most cases, with my typical caveat that I am not an attorney myself.

Wudan- Yes, yeah, I have always found it best to kind of just like ask like, if a client would be okay with that, or not. So, after working with subs, you dialed back. What was the decision-making process behind that? And how did that influence your rates, if at all?

Kat- Short answer is babies.

Wudan- Multiple.

Kat- Yes, which makes me feel like kind of a cliche, but I guess I'll roll with it. But to expand on that story, I welcome to my second son in January of 2022. And when I started like getting back into the groove of work post maternity leave, like, I was adjusting to life with two kids. I really craved like a simpler work life, particularly with like constant illnesses and daycare closures and all of the, you know, other wrenches that parenthood can throw in your direction. So subcontracting had so many perks, and I like loved the subcontractors I worked with, like I said, it was financially rewarding. But it also comes with a lot of added stress and responsibility. You know, you're like handing out assignments, you're making edits, you're providing feedback, you're paying invoices, you're hiring, you're training, you'e blah blah blah blah. So I realized I felt kind of most at peace with my business when I was just a company of one. So I decided to scale backwards to that for a while, and see how it goes. I would never say I'll never subcontract again. It might happen. But for now, particularly since, you know, I'm only working a thre-ish day work week, it's just been the best fit for me in kind of what I need out of my work right now. It didn't, like, directly influence my rates. If a client's paying a certain price, and maybe I shouldn't say this in case my clients like listen to it, but like, I'm not gonna go backwards on what I charge. I'm not going to essentially take, you know, a demotion for no reason. So it didn't directly influence my rates. I just say it had more of an impact on really like zoning in on the type of work I want to be doing because, you know, I have limited time. So I'm trying to really focus on the stuff that pays really well and it's also just like, enjoyable and interesting for me to work on.

Wudan- That makes a lot of sense. I mean, once you manage subcontractors, you become that: a manager and I feel like many of us do not get into freelancing to be a manager.

Kat- Yeah, that's so true. It really like, I guess I like didn't necessarily even feel like I was working less, which I know a lot of people say with subcontracting like, oh, you barely have to work. I didn't really feel like I was working less. I just felt like I was working on different things.

Wudan- Yeah, and managing can feel like really exhausting, if it's new to you, you're just learning, or all the other reasons that managing can be a different skill set, right? That feels like it takes so much more time, because it's new.

Kat- Yeah, absolutely.

Wudan- I want to zoom out a little bit more, Kat. And I'd love to hear how you know it's time to raise your rates more generally. Do you get signals from clients? Is it about how long you've worked with a particular client? Do you tie rate raises to when your contract renews? How do you think about that?

Kat- Yeah, so I don't really have, you're probably gonna get tired of me saying like, I don't have a set system. I probably just sound like I'm winging it over here. But I do get people who asked me a lot of questions about raising rates. And the first thing I always say is, when having the conversation, like, it's important to distinguish whether you're like raising your business rates in terms of like, I'm going to start charging more, you know, with new opportunities that come in the door, or if you're going to start, like, you're sending emails to clients and saying, my rates are increasing. With existing clients, there's like a ton of factors that consider like, how long have I been working with them? Like, what sort of feedback am I getting? What sort of results is the work generating for them, if I have access to that information? And my biggest one is always kind of more emotional in that like, I can really tell it's time to raise my rates if I'm like, starting to resent the work, because it doesn't feel worth it.

Wudan- Yes.

Kat- You know, like the amount of time or energy or effort I'm investing into it, I feel like I'm almost getting like ripped off. So that's always a big red flag for me with existing work is that yeah, if I'm resenting it, and I need to increase prices. And like, just speaking more business, generally how I know like, I need to start quoting higher rates is, and I think I've heard you mentioned this before, like, if I'm sending proposals or quotes, and I'm, like, getting the thumbs up without any pushback, or with very little pushback, that's a sign I need to start to charge more. Or honestly, if it's just been a minute since I've bumped up my prices, I'll usually give them an increase then. Just because, you know, I'm not getting merit raises. I'm not getting cost of living wage increases. It's kind of up to me to do that myself. So plus, you know, as freelancers, we're gathering new experiences and new expertise all the time, and I deserve to be compensated for getting better at my craft. So I mean, those are some signs that I always look for. I also will usually like kind of crowdsource other freelancers. I've found, you know, quite a few freelance friends who are really willing to be like transparent in the DMS. If I send them a project and say, like, what the heck would you charge for this? They're usually really helpful, and even if we're like, super far apart, it's a great way to kind of get some information on like, where the market is for these different things.

Wudan- Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Do you do like a annual check in with your rates? Or I know you said that maybe it sounds like you're winging it. But to me, I think there's a little more to that. So I just wonder if I can push that button a little bit further and say like, oh, is it every year? Is it six months? In addition to like, the emotional cues that you're talking about and client feedback?

Kat- Yeah, so I don't have like a set like annual check in, even though I do think like the beginning of the year can be a great time to raise rates. But it usually ends up being like I get sucked into kind of that like "new year, new me, going to reinvent my whole life" stuff that everybody finds themselves getting sucked into. So it usually ends up being post-holidays, beginning of the year that I like, sit down and look at my client load. And I've shared it on Instagram, I think before. I use like this matrix, where it's like a play on the Eisenhower Matrix, or the priority matrix, whatever you call it, and I sort my clients into categories of like, pays well and enjoy the work, pays well and don't enjoy the work, doesn't pay well and enjoys the work doesn't pay well, don't enjoy the work. And like I categorize my clients that way so I can like clear—if I'm trying to like weed through things. Or, I mean, honestly identify clients that I need to raise rates with, like, if I see these clients that I'm working with, and I see I enjoy the work, but I feel like it doesn't pay well. Those are ones that I know I want to reach out to and like increase my prices, so I can kind of get them into that varsity level quadrant of the matrix, so to speak.

Wudan- That's a great strategy. And I love the Eisenhower Matrix for just task prioritization. But yeah, I talked about this in the Writers' Co-op's business audit, which is okay, like, how much do we like this client? And how close are they to getting to a rate that is more desirable for me? I want to hear more about where you've seen the most progress in pricing. Like, obviously, you talked about how you're earning 20 bucks an hour and then you realize you hated that and then you switch to project fee. I think that is very resonant with me because when I work on a project fee basis, usually my hourly rate is I want to say for X, like what I could get if I just quoted a client an hourly rate.

Kat- Yeah, that's an excellent point. And I—that honestly popped into my head when you asked where I think I am with hourly rates. So I guess like ways to progress quickly on pricing and start charging more, if that's what you want to do, is one of the things I found like really helpful and a little less anxiety-inducing is that like, I'll usually quote my most ballsy rates for projects when I like, don't actually need the work. So like if my calendar is full, and I'm like, oh, I don't really need this project. Like, I don't really have time to take something on, like I'll quote, a rate that I'm like, oh, there's really no way anybody would go for this. And then sometimes they do. And I'm like, well, this is both a great big payday, and I will absolutely weave it into my schedule and weed something else out. But it's also like a really great experiment to kind of find out what some of these clients can, "tolerate" and where the market is. And if they don't agree to such a large rate, then I don't really feel like I've like lost anything, because I didn't really need the work to start with. And again, another way to think about, like progressing quickly on pricing, and I was actually just working on a newsletter about this recently, like progressing quickly on pricing, I think we think so much about the price. And I alluded to this earlier, and I think then people get so wrapped up in like, well, I want to progress on my pricing, I want to charge more, I want to earn more, like, and then you know, a $2,000 project is way better than an $800 project on paper. But for me, I think you really have to bring effort into the equation.

Wudan- Yeah.

Kat- Especially since personally, I'm at a point where I don't have the mental capacity for a ton of complex and challenging and demanding work. So I'm kind of like I would rather do an assignment for a client that's a breeze to work with. And that pays me $800 and takes me a couple of hours, then you know, an assignment that maybe pays $2,000 and costs me like days and stress. So another way to progress quickly on pricing, I think is to think about the work that you're really good at and comes naturally to you. And not necessarily charge a bananas rate for that, maybe charge a little more moderately, but you can do a lot of it relatively easily. And maybe that's a controversial opinion. But it's been effective for me in terms of finding work that pays me pretty well that I can do really easily and fit a lot of it in.

Wudan- Yeah, there's no shame in doing easy work, especially if your client finds that valuable, right? That's almost like the best of both worlds. The story that I share a lot about progressing quickly on pricing is exactly kind of what I told you about me wanting to raise a rate with a very long-term client, and they have me billing hourly, that's just the way that their system is set up. And I asked for a higher rate. And they basically told me that I was at their ceiling. And I was like, oh, but I want to continue working with you for myriad other reasons that don't relate to pricing. And I was like, how would you feel if we just switched to a project fee for all these different scopes of work? And they said yes. And, you know, I still go in and log the number of hours that would have spent to get to the commensurate project rate that we agreed on. But little do they know how much more efficiently and quickly and how that actually impacts my rates, which is basically quadruple that. So I think project rates are an art, for sure, to kind of get it right. But they can also really help you progress quickly.

Kat- Yeah, they can. And I actually, now that you mention that, I'm like working with a longtime client now. And because resources are shifting, our agreement is kind of shifting, and I'm working with them to come up with a monthly rate. And like retainers aren't really something that I do a lot of, but we've been working through that process for kind of like, you know, a set number of blog posts, what would the monthly rate be? And I'm interested to see how that works out. Because right now, similarly to what you said, if I break it down, based on like, what the monthly rate would be and how many posts they want. It's a significant increase on the project rate I was charging, but I also am you know, kind of mindful of the fact that some of those posts might be a little more complex than the ones I was doing and some might be easier. And I'm like keeping my fingers crossed that it all evens out in the end.

Wudan- That makes a lot of sense. So Kat, how do you know if you're kind of approaching a ceiling for what your clients are able to afford? How do you approach that?

Kat- Yeah, so in terms of finding a ceiling, I haven't really found like one, I guess. Because, I don't know, like so many things, it's just so nuanced in terms of like, I work with some multibillion dollar software enterprises, and then I sometimes work with like scrappy startups. And the ceilings between those can be so different. I guess I usually don't really have to guess about when I've found a ceiling because I have pretty good relationships with my clients that they're usually pretty transparent about what their budget is and what they can realistically afford. So like, usually those are surprisingly collaborative conversations, which I think people typically don't think about when you talk about the pricing, because it kind of feels like a me versus them sort of thing in the freelance world. But I've actually found that like, a lot of clients are really willing to be collaborative, particularly if they really like working with you. And they understand you need to raise your rate, but don't necessarily have the resources to cover it. I found they're usually really willing to just be a little more collaborative about it. And either that involves, you know, like adjusting frequency or adjusting scope, or whatever it is, to try to find some middle ground or like, sometimes you just outgrow clients, and that will be painful. But it happens, particularly as you talk about getting more expertise and experience and commanding a higher rate, like the reality is like, not everybody can afford that.

Wudan- Yeah, that makes sense. But even like, what the new clients who you're bringing on, and you're telling me that you're kind of quoting them a price that makes you throw up a little, paraphrasing, but like, what ceilings are you finding there?

Kat- I mean, I, I'm trying to think. Like it, I don't really know that I've found a ceiling. And I've had—I guess clients are usually willing to come back and say like, that's way above what we could afford, or we could afford XYZ. I did have, like, I think I tweeted about it a while ago. Like in the span of one week, I had a prospective client that I had done like a discovery call with, and I can't even remember what I quoted him, it was like, not my most ambitious rate, not even close, I think it was like 8 or $900 that I quoted him for like an SEO blog post, which like does not make me the most expensive freelancer on the block. And he like a flat out told me like that is like more than double what I have ever paid a freelancer in my life. And then in that same week, like a day later, one of my existing long-term clients, like, reviewed and edited one of my submissions, and was like, oh, please add, I think it was like $200 or something to your invoice for this one, because you definitely deserve to be paid more. And I just thought it was such an interesting, like illuminating experience just about how nuanced pricing can be. And like there really is no one ceiling or one price that everybody agrees on. Because just for the same rate, I got told that I was like wildly expensive, and that I wasn't charging enough. And it was just such a bizarre experience.

Wudan- Yeah, my thought right now is that project rates, I think just seem a lot more friendly. And maybe it's harder to hit a ceiling. Because when freelancers begin this journey, they'll look at something like EFA rates, which are just like editorial guidelines, like rates that people could charge, and they give a low, middle, and higher end. And to me that creates a limiting belief of what these people can earn, even when they're like 20 years in their career. Like, if you've been doing something for two decades, please actually charge more than $75 an hour. I beg you.

Kat- Mhm. Yeah.

Wudan- But I think like maybe the trick here is really just to get away from hourly pricing, because I don't quote my highest paid clients like 300 an hour, even though that is what the math works out to at the end.

Kat- Yeah, that's a good point. And I also think like one thing to mention here in terms of like finding a ceiling—and this all depends on like how, like I said, collaborative, you really want to get with your clients in terms of pricing, and like, I guess you could argue if it's even your job as a freelancer to provide this sort of education, so to speak—but I have found that some clients, particularly if they're newer at working with freelancers, they're not coming into it with the same context that you have. So sometimes they need a little education about what it means to be a freelancer and that like, yeah, that project rate for a blog post might sound expensive when you think it's just for a blog post, until I remind you that I'm paying my own benefits, and my own taxes my own time off, and my business expenses, like I'm not just over here, pocketing that $1,000 or whatever it is that I have, you know, I'm a business who has things to cover. And I think I've also gotten more confidence in this and I've talked to some of my like larger clients, and they've shared what they pay agencies, and it is just astounding. So like I always tell freelancers, like you are not being unreasonable with your prices. You would have to be charging just alarmingly high rates to be really out pricing yourself for every client on the planet, because some of these large companies that I work with, what they pay agencies is like, it's unreal.

Wudan- I bet, yeah. Because the agencies also have to be profitable, right? Like, that's like the larger subcontracting model for sure.

Kat- Yeah. And they have so much more overhead in terms of, you know, clients have told me like, well, it you know, goes for a brief and then it goes for an outline. And that goes for a draft, and then a second draft and edits. And there's three different editors, and like, there's all these people who need to be paid along the way.

Wudan- Yeah, I totally agree. Kat, how are you experiencing this like whole recession talk? About some clients, maybe cutting back on content budgets? How does that affect what you're able to make with them? Whether it's on a project or like a purchase order that you have open with them? What does that been like?

Kat- Yeah, so it took me, I've obviously seen all the recession talk on Twitter and LinkedIn, and all the scary headlines, and honestly took me a little while to like, really feel it, you know, kind of feel it start to impact me. But just a couple of weeks ago, one of like my longest, steadiest anchor clients—I think I've written for them since like 2016—they sent me an email to tell me they needed to scale back from like, four blog posts per month to like one, at least for the next couple of months. So yeah, that's like a decent hit to my income. And it's disheartening when something like that happens. And I've also just noticed, in general, you know, I've had some clients like that cut back because of, you know, budget cuts or cost reduction measures. And then I've also noticed, like, things just seem slower, in general. And I don't just mean like, my inbox is quieter, but like, I'll do a discovery call with a client and they're, you know, super excited. And then I follow up and it's like, oh, we're just, we're still running it up the flagpole. And you follow up again. And it just seems like I'm having to be way more proactive about like chasing down work, which I honestly haven't done in years. And if I'm being totally honest, which I always aim to be, it has made me a little nervous. So I have started to like compromise on my rates, like just the slightest bit, like I just shaved a little bit off of a price for a client who I've worked with sporadically in the past. And I gave them my rate. And they were like, well, we can't quite afford that. But we've budgeted, you know this, and I was like, okay, fine, I can do that. So I'm—I'm hoping not to move too far backwards. But like, times are weird, and I won't fault anybody, including myself, for like doing what they need to do to like stay afloat and get work in the door.

Wudan- Yeah, agreed. I want us to put a pin on when we're recording because we're recording this in February, even though this episode will run in June. But I agree on it being a slower time. And I'm grateful that past me asked for raises during a better economic time, and that my clients have been really gracious and not scaling back or anything. They're just like maintaining status quo, which is, to me, preferable to other alternatives.

Kat- Yeah, definitely. That's lucky. And I know like I'm—it's a weird time. And I'm in a weird spot, because I work mostly with, you know, tech, and that industry in general is just kind of like, really in the thick of it right now.

Wudan- Yeah, makes sense. On a more uplifting note, to end this interview, I was curious if you can talk about how you maintain an abundance mindset in getting freelance work, where I think you and I, it sounds like, are probably at the much higher end of what we want to charge for certain types of projects. And the reality is that the pickier we are, the narrower the client pool. So how do you navigate your abundance mindset in this landscape?

Kat- Oh, gosh. Especially since this is the last question, I wish I just had like some killer, golden advice to offer, but like, first, like it's so hard. But like, especially with all of you know, the looming kind of economic uncertainty we just talked about. Like, I am feeling that typical freelance urge to like hoard all of the work and going back to doing like whatever I can you know, for money. So it's—an abundance mindset is always challenging. I think it becomes increasingly so when you're really feeling like you're on you know, shaky ground. I do think one of the real positives about charging more, that I tried to kind of remind myself frequently, is I don't really need all of the work to earn a good living the way that I would have you know, when I was charging much less. Like I only really need a little, or a moderate amount of work, to earn a good living for me and my family. So I try to remind myself of that, that it is kind of a mindset shift in that I'm charging more, so I don't need more money and more work. Those things don't need to happen at once, so I can kind of scale back a little bit and still earn a good living. I also think I just have, and I don't know how helpful this is to new freelancers, but I just have the benefit of experience in that I've had high points in my business, and I've had low points, and they are just kind of the nature of the beast. And they are the freelance roller coaster ride, but what they do give me is perspective in that, like, I've made it through slow times. Or I've had times when I thought every thing was, you know, crumbling beneath me. And I've like made it through that. So that really helps. Even if it's not directly related to an abundance mindset, it does help me to remember that, like, I have always found opportunity before, and I like will again.

Wudan- Yeah, yeah, I think it's creating—and, you know, you have that proof from these, about a decade of experience. And I'm very similar in that way, too. And the other thing I think about too, during slower periods, is we are planting seeds for our garden in a way. Like, maybe it's—I don't have a garden, so I'm not fact checking any of this. But I do want to say that like, sure you can plant seeds during slower times. And then once it gets warmer outside, or once the rains or whatever calm, you can harvest the fruits of your labor then. And I think like everything with freelancing is cyclical, but even listening to talk about, you know, a client who you've had for many, many years, and I've had longtime clients, too, that is an example of planting a seed and then watching you reap the benefits later on.

Kat- Yeah, definitely. And I think, yeah, it goes a long way in terms of like maintaining those client relationships. So I think even if you, you know, are going through these cycles, where people are scaling back, like making sure that you, you know, stay in touch and maintain that relationship will pay dividends, when eventually somewhere down the line, things aren't quite as weird anymore, because that will happen too.

Wudan- Yeah, definitely. Well Kat, thank you so much for this conversation. It's been really illuminating to talk about pricing and ceilings, like do they exist? I love talking about things like this. So thank you for your time.

Kat- Yeah, of course. It was great to chat through all this. Hopefully it was helpful and made a little bit of sense.

Wudan- Thanks so much again.

Kat- Yeah, of course.