Ask Us Anything
EPISODE 5:
This week on the podcast, Jenni and Wudan address questions from Writers’ Co-op members! They talk about how to renegotiate a project fee when the scope starts to creep; tracking the time you're spending on the unpaid, "squishy" work of coming up with ideas and sending pitches; navigating conflicts of interest when working with brands; and whether or not it's better to have a niche, or to keep your focus broad.
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Full Transcript Below:
J- Hello, and welcome to The Writer’s Co-op, a business podcast for freelance writers everywhere
W- We’re your co-hosts! I am Wudan Yan
J- And I’m Jenni Gritters
W- This week on the podcast, we’re addressing questions from our Writers’ Co-op members!
J- We’ll do this in the middle of each season, to make sure that y’all are getting information on the topics that matter most to you.
W- We got a bunch of really good questions, but we chose the questions that came up most often and will be addressing those first, and doing it all rapid-fire style. If your question didn’t make it into the line up, send us an email or tweet at us and we’ll try to answer there!
J- One thing to note before we get started: We’re recording this episode during the middle of the coronavirus pandemic, on zoom, because social distancing. This podcast is meant to be an evergreen audio career handbook for freelancers, so we’re not going to talk specifically about coronavirus here-- but it might come up in context just because it’s so applicable to life right now.
W- We also ran a live Q&A session recently about working as a freelance writer or editor during a pandemic, so you can get those notes in our learning portal if you’re a Writers’ Co-op Patreon member!
J- Okay, let’s dive into the questions.
W- Yes. First up: Conflicts of interest. We got two questions about this. The first one says
“I’m a freelance journalist who wants to write a story for large environmental NGO's magazine, but I'm afraid taking the assignment will hurt my journalistic credibility. Should I take the assignment?”
And:
“If my internship plans for the summer don't work out, my plan was to work as a chemist for a pharma company I'd worked at before and then freelance on the side. (I'd disclose this to editors when pitching). I was told that's not a good idea and would be a conflict of interest, and that I should work another job to prioritize freelancing. Thoughts?”
Jenni, I know you deal with this often in your own work. What do you think?
J- Yes, I do a lot of work for brands, but I still do some journalism work as well. My split is probably 60% brand work and 40% journalism most months. So, the first thing I’ll say is that your answer to this question is going to be individual. We are each going to be more or less comfortable with conflicts of interest, so you have to determine your own rulebook when it comes to working with a company and also producing journalism. But I have some rules of thumb for how to navigate this personally:
First, I always think about how the story I’m working on is going to appear. If you’re writing for a brand or about a brand, but it’s straight up marketing content or you’re selling something, that can get dicey for your journalistic work. If I was developing sales copy for a brand, I would personally feel like I could never write about that brand in a journalistic context again, because I was on their payroll. For me, it feels safer to develop editorial content -- so basically, straight reported journalism or blogs -- for a brand. I do that kind of work for REI. I wouldn’t be able to work with them if they forced me to edit content to include a specific product they wanted me to sell, but they’ve never done that. And I also don’t cover REI in my journalistic work, since I’m on their payroll.
Second, I do try to keep a firewall between my brand work and my editorial work, and one of the easiest ways to do that is to write on different topics. So for example, much of my brand work is related to the outdoors, whereas a lot of my journalism is writing about new psychological studies and trends. Those are different enough that I don’t often see an overlap.
For the person asking about NGO work, I tend to feel okay about that depending on who’s funding the work and whether they’d ask you to compromise anything editorially. A lot of good journalism is funded by external sources, these days -- but it really, to me, depends on the specific project you’re doing for them. Would not being able to write about that NGO in the future compromise your ability to do good journalism? If yes, you might not want to take the assignment.
For the person who’s thinking about working as a chemist, I’d also say you should be fine-- but you’ll have to navigate conflicts of interest as each story comes up and you might not want to write specifically about the work you’re doing. Again, if not being able to write about that specific bit of research would interrupt your journalism career in a negative way, you’ll want to rethink the job.
Wudan, what do you think about this? You do some work for biotechs. How do you navigate that ethical line?
W- Yes, all of this depends on how you weigh the costs and the benefits. A former freelancer said that she plays by the 2-out-of-3-rule: that she’ll only take gigs if they fulfill two out of three things: prestige, pay, or passion. And sometimes money trumps everything else, which is totally ok.
For example, if writing for that NGO magazine is going to be a steady gig, then I might pick that over trying to pitch newspapers and magazines on environmental stories. I think if your journalism is in a different subject area from the brand/content work that you’re doing, it’s fine.
My response is similar for the listener who is thinking about working at a pharmaceutical company. That income would provide some welcome stability, but be ready to not write any stories about that pharmaceutical company, or chemistry, or anything that could pose as a conflict of interest. If what you really want to write about is sports, that could work. My other concern would be, if you’re going into this with no other clips. From an editor’s perspective, I can see how that might be a little concerning.
J- Okay, next question: We got a lot of asks about negotiation and Wudan, I think you can address that issue really well. Someone asked: “What services does Wudan charge $70/hour for and how did she pitch/negotiate this service?” Another person wanted to know about whether or not it’s possible to renegotiate a rate if the scope is creeping mid-project. And another wanted to know how you respond when a publication tells you that they can’t change their standard rates. How do you decide that you want to negotiate rates, Wudan? And what does that conversation look like?
W- This goes back to what we discussed in episode 2 about deciding how much to charge for your services!
To the person who asked me about my $70/hour gig, that’s a fact-checking gig. I’ve been fact checking for six years and counting. For some context: my rate for that started at $15/hour - which is how much I was paid for an intern. As a freelancer, the only person who will give you a raise is yourself, so I’ve gradually been able to ask for more. You’ll see that editing jobs usually pay on the order of $50-60/hour. Fact checking is sort of editing, fact-checking, and sometimes writing, too, so I’ve really worked myself on negotiating up.
On negotiating rates: I ask when I think a publication can do a little better than what they offered. The conversation usually looks like this. The editor will say, “For this story, we can do a rate of 400, does that work for you?”
If I want to counter, I’ll say “Can you do 500?”
Then the editor might come back to me and say, “We can’t do that, but 450 is doable on our end. Will that work?”
I think about negotiating rates like haggling at a market in Southeast Asia. It’s usually friendly banter, which makes me a little less intimidated when I’m negotiating for an assignment. And, If the price doesn’t work for you at the end, you can walk away. But there’s no harm in asking.
On scope creep -- I just think an assignment with an editor is an ongoing conversation. Keep them in the loop. The second you think the assignment is creeping - either in word count or focus -- which makes you put in more hours and you’re not compensated accordingly, I would bring it up. Don’t want until the story has published to ask whether or not you can be paid more. You can say, “I’m noticing the focus of the story is expanding from what we originally agreed on; I’m super happy to put in the work, can we amend the contract and project fee so it accurately reflects this?”
Anything to add, Jenni?
J -- I do the same thing with negotiations. I just got done negotiating a product review, actually! The editor came to me with the assignment, but the rate was too low. So I explained to her that my usual rate for that kind of work is $50/ hour, and it would probably take me 20 hours, so I’d usually charge $1000 but could do the project for $800 because it would mean getting baby swings to use in my house-- which would save my family money during the testing period. She’d counter-offered $600, and we eventually landed on a $700 fee, meeting in the middle.
I’ve found that most places are willing to negotiate their standard rates, and it’s always worth trying to have that conversation even if you don’t have confidence in their ability to change the rates. I’ve been surprised before! And if the final rate is too low, you can always walk away.
To the question about negotiating mid-story due to scope creep, I explain to the editor why I’m asking for more, and I try to do this BEFORE the hours creep. So, if I think a story will take 20 hours and I’m making 1,000 on it, and I get to hour 23 and realize I have 10 more hours of work to do, I’ll approach the editor and say: So, this is taking more reporting or work than I expected, and I’d like to keep going but I can’t keep digging at the current rate. Would you be able to compensate me for 10 extra hours, or would you prefer that I stop my reporting now and turn in a slightly less built out story?
The conversation generally evolves from there. Sometimes the editor says yes and sometimes they say no, but it always informs how I’ll proceed. Basically: Reach out to the editor early if you see the scope creeping. Asking for more money after the creep rarely-- if ever-- works.
W- Next question -- I think this is a good one: “I struggle to focus on one area in my writing because I'm interested in a lot of things, but I struggle to build a personal brand because my work seems/looks unfocused. Should I develop a focus or keep it broad?”
J- I like this question a lot. My answer is that I think you should be specific about what you do-- but that doesn’t mean you can’t do a few things, and it also doesn’t mean you can’t report on multiple topics. When I started freelancing, I took any kind of assignment that came my way, no matter the topic. I was like, I need the money! But I think that actually hurt me. I wasn’t as productive for the topics I didn’t like writing about, and my brand was kind of… watered down. When I decided to launch my company-- ZEST Storycraft-- I specifically defined it as being focused on the science of healthy living. Under that umbrella, I could write about psychology, the outdoors, fitness, science news, and more. I started getting more assignments from editors once I defined a specific area of expertise.
Wudan, what do you think about this? You write about a broad range of topics, but I also feel like you have a sort of personal “brand” when it comes to your reporting.
W- I actually struggle with this question, too! Last summer was kind of a mindbender when I was working on stories about people who walk their cats on leashes, mountain goats dangling out of helicopters, and a pretty deep investigation into police brutality against alaskan native and native american men. The fun part of freelancing is getting to choose what stories you’re investigating. Then as far as how I brand myself, I think I put it all under “independent journalist,” “magazine writer,” or “science writer, “depending on who I’m trying to give me a commission!
J- That’s a good point! I think Wudan’s clients hire her because of her style of writing, and her expert reporting. So her skills are her brand, more than any one topic. And that’s okay too! I’ve also changed the topics I cover over the years-- like now I’m branching out into writing about parenting! So you can always be evolving.
W- Alright, next up, we got some questions about pitching and finding work. This is what we get asked about this most, and we’ll get more in depth about that in the future, but we’ll give you a few thoughts today. Here are the first two questions, which we’ll answer together:
How long (in words or sentences) are your typical pitches for accepted stories?
And: Is it better to be fast, when editors are getting swamped within an hour of posting a call, or slow down and be thorough for a pitch that might have a better chance of getting accepted?
J- Be concise! I was an editor in a past life and editors don’t have the time to read something long. They’re generally skimming. My pitches are typically 10 sentences MAX, word count varies based on how complicated the story is. Some story pitches only need two sentences-- like a breaking news piece, for example. Others require a bit more explanation. If you’re a Writers’ Co-op All Access member, we have a pitching template in our portal that you can use.
W- Agreed. It totally varies for the story, the outlet, and what kind of relationship you have with the editor. My cold pitches for investigative stories have run in the ballpark of 800 words. If I have a relationship with an editor it might just be an idea, with a few sentences of how I’ll approach the reporting. Or, I might just text the idea to them. In general, I tend to keep my pitches as short as humanly possible. Time is the only form of currency we can never get back.
J- For sure, time matters! If you’re pitching a longform feature, take a bit more time to get the details right. Do a bit of pre-reporting-- but I do think people get into trouble when they spend a day or two pre-reporting a story that hasn’t been accepted yet. I rarely do full interviews until I have the story assigned to me. That’s unpaid time, and it’s the quickest way to kill your business model. I’ll usually send a few questions to a source via email if I’m pre-reporting, or I’ll read the abstracts of a few studies and skim for other reporting on the issue, but that’s as extensive as it gets.
W- Cool, think we answered that one pretty fast!
J- Next up, this person says: “I have a good amount of self-discipline, but I'm also an "ideas" person so I'm always bouncing around starting new projects instead of just plugging in and getting shit done. How do I give myself structure?”
Wudan, how do you handle this?
W- My first response to this is: if you’re getting commissioned for your ideas, great! If not, then I think the first step is capitalizing on your ideas.
J- Yes, good point! Being an ideas person is a good thing in this business-- you just want to make sure the ideas are turning into assignments.
W- I’m someone who’s usually bouncing around from lots of assignments, so I resonate with this question a lot. Every month, I take stock of all the assignments that will be going through edits, ongoing, and just starting. Then, I make a grid for every week -- I’ll include a sample of this in the portal if you’re an All-access member this week -- I call it a “work matrix.” The thursday or friday before every week, I take a lot of time to fill in that grid and make sure every day I’m getting some little thing done and spacing out work when I can. The evening before the next workday, I sit down and make a little ‘bullet journal’ list of all the stuff that needs to get done. It’s a hyper organized, multi-layered system, but it works for me and I really love it. What about you, Jenni?
J- I try to be a good manager to myself, which means defining the work that really needs to be done and not packing too many projects into a busy week. I also make a to do list at the end of every work day, for the next day, and I order it in terms of priority. That way, I can start at the top and work my way down, and it helps me to focus and avoid procrastination. I think this is where some “getting to know yourself” reflection is also helpful: I spent time before I started freelancing thinking about how I work best. All of us need different things to focus, but I’d encourage you to think about what you need in order to be productive.
For example, I need a quiet space (no music with words, very little distractions-- so not a coffee shop) when I’m drafting longform stories. If I’m just working on administrative tasks or pitches, I can work from somewhere louder. I work best outside of my house, so I have a coworking space membership. When I’m working there, I feel like more of a “professional” so I get my work done faster and find I can focus better. And I try not to sit all day. My productivity tanks around 2 pm, so I work hard through the morning and then take a mid-afternoon break to workout most days, before finishing admin tasks in the later afternoon hours. Take some time to brainstorm what things you need in order to be productive, to turn your ideas into actual things. That’s key, since no one else is going to tell you to get shit done. It’s all on you!
Okay, here’s another good question, Wudan: “As a freelance journalist, I'm pretty good at basic business and administrative work. I track the status of all my stories in a spreadsheet, make sure my invoices are going out on time, and ask for more money when an editor's proposed rate falls short of the $/word rate I feel should be standard for my work. But at the end of the day, I spend 99% of my brain energy on the squishy work of reporting and writing. I occasionally find myself thinking about that quote "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it" and wonder if there are aspects of my business or even my reporting process that I could be tracking more closely and improving. Have you guys thought about this at all, and what did you come up with? I want to be my own management consultant!”
W- Wow, there’s a lot going on in this question -- and I mean that in a good way. That’s amazing you’re negotiating and tracking your work.
J- Agreed! You already have a lot of best practices going on here.
W- I also don’t think it’s a bad thing for you to be thinking about the craft. I do that a lot, too! I guess I want to know, is that brain energy kicking in during your work hours, or when you’re out on a run or ride, or whatever socially distance-appropriate workout you’re doing? If it’s the former, I’d be a little more concerned, if the latter, I think that’s when the best creative answers happen. I guess what I’m getting at is: if you notice that your “squishy work” is severely cutting into your hourly rate DURING work hours, that’s one thing and you can then do the math of how much money you’re losing. If it’s happening independently of the set aside time for work, I think that’s completely natural. Jenni, do you have anything to add to that?
J- This is a tough question! For me, a lot of my creative ideas time happens when I’m doing yoga, or in the shower, or running, like Wudan said. And I’ve sort of come to peace with the fact that I can’t separate my work and my life as strictly, when it comes to thinking of ideas for projects or stories. But I have spent some time tracking my days using a tool called toggl and I discovered that I spend a lot of time doing a few things: Emailing, sending and chasing invoices, and transcribing. I’ve started to spend a little money to get those things done by someone else, so I can get the time back. I use Quickbooks now to track invoices, and I always get my transcriptions done by Temi. Boomerang helps me answer emails and reminds me of tasks so I don’t have to use brainspace to remember those things. Wudan, you hired an assistant, right? This seems like a good time to talk about that.
W- Ha, yes! I did. I hired an assistant after I had $5k in late payments owed to me. I didn’t want the emotional labor of chasing after money, so now I outsource it. She also reads over contracts and helps draft my contract negotiations. And if I’m on the road and need some research help, I’ll just send it to her so it doesn’t cut into my time. Like, sometimes finding an email contact for a hard-to-locate source will take me so long and I’ll procrastinate because I’m dragging my feet, but if I ask my assistant to help she can get to it much faster.
J- I’d say: It’s always worth taking a week to track your time spent on certain activities. Use Toggl and you’ll start to notice how often you’re task switching, or being distracted by certain administrative things. Do an experiment and see what you find!
Alright, last question for this episode: How to know when is a good time to transition from a freelance writing side hustle to writing full-time?
J- For me, the best case scenario is a slow transition out of your full-time job. If you can work as a contractor or a part-time worker in a job you already know, that’ll allow you to build up your own business with some remaining stability. Eventually, you won’t have enough time for your side hustle anymore and that’s when you know you need to reduce your hours at your full-time job. That’s not always possible, though-- so if you need to cut your full-time job and jump into freelancing cold turkey, find 1-2 gigs that’ll pay your bills for the next 1-2 months. That’ll mean you can leave your job with some work already planned out.
W- 100% agree with what you’re saying, but speaking from my own experience -- and yours, Jenni -- you can’t always plan. (Like, we’re heading into a recession and if you’re a staffer now, your position might get slashed.)
J- Agreed-- best case scenario is not always the most likely scenario.
W- I like to say that there’s no “good time” to do anything. No good time to start dating, or move to a new city, go through a breakup, life just has its own ways about stuff like that. I think for a lot of people, getting to full time freelancing, or writing, getting rid of the fears and whatever’s holding them back -- if that’s what you really want to do. Get rid of the “I can’t”s, “but what if”s, and your other doubts. I think it’s all really mental. Of course, there’s a lot of stuff you can do to prepare for this jump, like we discussed in the first episode, to set you up for success. Decide all the things that can make you money, and fast, and make time for the writing. B comes before C in the alphabet: business, then craft.
J- If you wait for the right time, you might always be waiting. So yeah, I say be bold and do it… but with as much of a safety net as you can muster.
Okay, so as we said at the beginning of this episode, we didn’t have time for all of your questions-- but we’d encourage you to sign up for an All-Access Writers’ Co-op membership on Patreon, if you have an extra $7 to spare each month. With that membership, you get access to a folder of resources, including a template for pitching, language to look for in contracts, and tax and LLC FAQs. We get a lot of questions about those issues, and there are fabulous resources just waiting for you with good answers!
W- Agreed, there’s so much good stuff in there! And if we didn’t get to your question, feel free to DM us on Twitter or send an email. We love talking about this stuff.
J- Alright, back to coronavirus reporting.
W- Aaarrrrrgh, yes. Hang in there, and we’ll see you all in a few weeks for our next episode!
J- Bye Wudan!
W- Bye Jenni!
