Banish Burnout

SEASON 3, EPISODE 9:

Burnout may be common for freelancers and small business owners, but you don't have to live with it. If you've listened to TWC episodes before, you know that Wudan and Jenni believe that time off, and the introspection required to combat burnout-related patterns, are key to running a sustainable business. And that's what Jenni is chatting about on this episode Katie Navarra, a freelance writer from Upstate NY. Katie started her career exclusively as an equine journalist and expanded into agriculture, education and leadership. Today she is transitioning to content marketing and life coaching. During this coaching session, it became pretty obvious that Katie was feeling apathetic about her work. She’s found great success in equine journalism but now she’s excited about something else. We loved two things about this conversation: First, Katie was able to identify the opposite of burnout for her -- which was the feeling of being in the ring with her horse. It was a feeling of freedom, and we talked about how to harness that (no pun intended) in future months. Second, we love that Katie and Jenni landed on time off as a good solution. Let's be clear: time off isn’t the only way to cure burnout, nor is it possible for everyone. Usually, burnout is indicative of a systemic issue (sometimes within your control, and sometimes due to factors outside of your control). So even if you take time off, you’ll come back into a situation that will cause that exact same problem all over again. BUT, Katie wanted to take time off -- like, two whole months off! -- to rehash her business plan and figure out what she wants next. Her goal is to come back to an entirely different situation, and she needs time away to figure out how to get herself into what is essentially an entirely new career. When Katie and Jenni caught up a few weeks ago (we recorded this episode at the beginning of the summer of 2021), Katie shared that she’s designated not two, but three whole months off this winter. Who says freelancers can’t step away from their work? With strategic planning, anything is possible. You can download resources for this episode in our banish burnout booster pack which contains journal prompts, a worksheet on signals of burnout, an ideal client mad libs page, and a business audit.

Full Transcript Below:

Wudan Yan- Hi there, you're listening to The Writers' Co-op.

Jenni Gritters- We are an-anti hustle business podcast for freelance creatives.

W- And we are your co-hosts. I'm Wudan Yan.

J- And I'm Jenni Gritters.

W- Today we're back with another coaching episode, this time focused on burnout.

J- Yeah, burnout. The monster that chases all of us down at some point in our freelance careers, I think. But before we dive into that, let's do life updates. So Wudan, how are ya? How's your business?

W- I mean, on the topic of burnout, I'm shockingly, not very burnt out. But I will say I'm also taking a rather unprecedented amount of time off the summer. I've been running around the woods, which is the best way to get me fully disconnected and recharged for more work. But also, I'm planning on moving into another season of my freelance business come fall. So I'm also preparing for that. What about you, Jenni?

J- Yeah, so when this episode airs, I will be getting ready to move to a new place. I'm really sad to be leaving Bend, Oregon. We've been here actually for about nine months. But I think we're gonna come back. And all this shifting of place has also forced me to consider what I want my business to look like in the fall. I think, like you just said, moving into a new season feels like the right way to frame it. It's kind of hard to move every 13 weeks, but I also kind of like that it's this built in opportunity for a reset for me. So yeah, that's where my brain is at right now, trying to figure out what is next and what that's gonna look like.

W- Cool. Do you have any plans for the reset?

J- Yeah, so I definitely overloaded my schedule this summer. Not on purpose. But I think a lot of my projects just got delayed, a lot of my gear reviews got delayed, because gear production is moving slowly right now. So a lot of things got pushed into late August, which means I've been running around like a crazy person. So I am taking all of September off pretty much to move and readjust. And then in October, I'm going to focus on anchor clients. And then as you've heard me talk about, I'm really going to build out my business coaching practice. So I'm like back in school with this training program. I have courses and modules and homework. And so I'm gonna take the time to really dig into that. I think, actually, that that's the theme of my year is taking the time and not the money, which is very different for me, but actually feels good. So I think like business wise, for me, it's going to be a slower fall. But you know, that sounds really appealing right now, actually.

W- Yeah, that kind of sounds nice.

J- Yeah, honestly, I feel like I'm doing one of those like, balance shifts that I often help my clients with, like, what percent of energy are you going to dedicate to which things? Like, I'm basically shifting the energy that I had been putting into writing into building and preparing a coaching business, like I need to write a new business plan and stuff. So it's kind of the same stuff, but just a different balance. And coaching is my long game, which feels kind of wild to say out loud, but good.

W- That's exciting. And also just so fun. So fun to see all the ways careers transition and turn. Jenni, should we dive into today's coaching call?

J- Absolutely. So today you're going to hear an interview or a coaching session that I did with Katie Navarra. Katie is pretty interesting. She's a writer from upstate New York. And she started her career exclusively as an equine journalist writing about horses and everything that pertains to that. And then she expanded into agriculture, education, and leadership. And now she's switching again, from that stuff into content marketing, writing, and life coaching. Lol, kind of like me. So here is our chat. I hope you enjoy it. Hi, Katie. And welcome to The Writers' Co-op.

Katie Navarra- Hi, Jenni. I'm excited to be here today.

J- Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. I think we have lots of good stuff to dig into. So before we start, why don't you tell me and everyone else who's listening a little bit about your business right now. So what services you offer, you know, how much you're making, where you're based, all of that good stuff.

K- Sure. I'll give you a little backstory, I think that'll help understand where I am now. I worked full time for about 15 years while building a freelance business, and had come to the conclusion that it was time to go out on my own in 2020, pre-pandemic. So I gave my notice at my full time position on March 6. Actually, that was my last day, and then the whole world shut down a week later. But I don't regret that at all. It's been a fantastic first year. I was able to level up to the level of sales that I was hoping to get to. And it's given me a chance to be strategic about my business, which started in more of the journalism line specifically in the horse media space. I got my start writing for many of the horse industry's main magazines and publications, and I serve on a board in that industry. And as I'm going into my second year of working for myself, I am looking at transitioning a little bit more to content marketing, writing, feeling a little burnt out from journalism and trying to get to some spaces where I feel like there's a good balance between the workload and some time to just get out and enjoy working for myself.

J- Yeah, that totally makes sense. I think we should circle back to that burnout in a little bit. But before we do that, will you tell me a little bit about what you did before freelancing and your full time jobs, what kind of tasks you are in charge of what sort of work you are focused on,

K- I have a very eclectic professional background. My first job out of college, I was hired at 22, to run a wholesale distribution location for a division of John Deere. We sold landscape supplies, like irrigation heads, and grass seed and fertilizer. And I was in charge of a location in upstate New York, and built it to a million dollar business in three years, and then moved on to a regional marketing role with the company. After leaving there, I went into education worked for two different educational—one was an institution, one was an association—working in their marketing departments helping plan recruitment events, write their marketing materials, I actually was in charge of their strategy for different projects. So those two positions also helped set me up for working for myself.

J- Yeah, this is all great. I always say the best thing about switching from a full time job to freelancing is you sort of get to take the bits and pieces from your past jobs that you've liked, and then ditch everything else right. Get to choose. It's a good thing.

K- And I have to say, I tell people that John Deere paid me to get my MBA, because many writers struggle with the business side and learning how to read profit and loss statements and collections and all of that. I never imagined at 22, that it would be as helpful as it is today.

J- Yeah, totally. I think you're lucky, right? I think that has probably been a huge part of your success in the past year. So why don't you tell me about sort of what the dream is, what you would like to be doing now that you're, you know, you've been freelancing for a year, where do you see yourself landing in five years or so? Which I know is a tough question during the pandemic. But yeah, give me give me a sense of what you're dreaming about what your ideal scenario might look like?

K- That's a great question. So I've actually been looking at changing up my business model a little bit. And to do that, my goal is to really work with organizations and businesses that support farming, and horses in general. And so I work with a couple of institutions to help promote grant based programs that they have, and working with some companies that are developing new products in those fields to help with their marketing strategy. I guess, I would say that's because my goal is to kind of get away from what I call the churn and burn of writing a lot of words with a lot of sources for not a lot of money. And, you know, so I'd like to be more selective in the clients that I choose to also, you know, pick areas where I can increase my rates. And ultimately, I'd like to make coaching services a part of my business, I have a long passion for horses, and I'm learning how to integrate, or partner with horses to deliver coaching services. And so I kind of see that as a two pronged business model.

J- Yeah, I love this. You're speaking my language, you know, this is sort of what I do to right, these two different sides of my business. Why don't you tell me about how the session can be most useful to you today, given where you're at. I can think of a lot of things to talk about based on what you've just said, but I want to hear from you. Where are you hitting, you know, challenge moments? What would be most useful to discuss today?

K- I'm struggling a little bit with transitioning from journalism into the content marketing side. And I say that because you know, I try to be really firm and say, I'm not going to take an assignment just to take an assignment, and then I end up taking it. And so that also tends to leave less time for marketing. And so I guess, maybe really coming up with a game plan of how I can put focus into developing those two prongs of the business. While kind of juggling everything else.

J- Yeah, so that sounds like a great idea. So coming up with a strategy to step into marketing a little bit more in step towards that coaching a little more. Does that sound resonant to you?

K- Yes, it does.

J- Okay, great. Why don't we actually start with the burnout bit that you'd mentioned before? So you mentioned that you're feeling a little bit burned out by the churn and burn cycle, which Yes. I think that makes sense. Tell me a little bit more about that, though. Are there certain projects that are really grating at you, certain experiences that have been really tough? Where do you see that burnout showing up?

K- You know, it's funny, my husband always said to me, you know, are you going to be happy when you get to be a writer. And it's kind of funny, because now that I'm a writer, it's like that burnout has kicked in and it's like, ahh, can I really do this all day long? The pieces that kind of grate on me are the— I found I really just don't have it in me to write the 2000 word stories anymore that require seven, eight different sources. I'm finding that I prefer the shorter 600-1,000 word pieces that take one expert in the interview, maybe two things that I can knock out in an hour or two as opposed to, you know, crafting really deep stories that take hours and days to report and put into a piece.

J- Yeah, that makes sense to me. Tell me how it shows up, like, how do you feel the burnout?

K- I procrastinate. It takes a while to get started. I also like just have this feeling that it's not fun anymore. And you know where I used to, when I would start out writing those types of projects, it used to feel like a big puzzle to me. And I could feel all the pieces like clicking into place in my head before I even really started. And now I just feel like the words come harder, pulling all those big ideas together is tougher. And you know, maybe my brain is just a little tired.

J- Yeah, totally. It's interesting hearing you talk about your background. And some of this, it feels to me like you're very entrepreneurial. And oftentimes, there is a lot of buzz around tackling a new challenge, right, launching a business during a pandemic. And figuring out how to do all of this is actually very much a creative puzzle, right? It's a creative challenge. I like the word puzzle you used. And it makes sense to me that the energy around that at a certain point, once you figured it out, it's like, okay, what's next, right, and these things start to grate. So I'm curious, on the flip side, if there are projects that you have right now that really make you feel excited, you know, the way you felt at the beginning, when you were starting your freelance business. Are there any that you can think of that are resonating with you right now and feel fun?

K- Definitely. You know, I work with a national advocacy group that supports farmers and agriculture. And they have had several different grant programs where they train different individuals. And so they want to write profiles on how that grant money was used and the outcomes. And I love working on those pieces, being able to promote how agriculture is pursuing sustainability practices, how it's an important part of our everyday life. Those pieces are under 1000 words, usually one or two people. That's the kind of work I really love. I also just wrote a custom content piece that featured a local FFA chapter that's brand new, and how they've just kind of taken off and exploded their participation in a suburban area where you wouldn't really think that people would be as interested in joining a farming based organization in high schools. And that was really fun. And that was kind of at that sweet spot: 1200 words, talk to the club leaders and the students and be able to promote the great work that they're doing there.

J- So it sounds like there is something here to this length, right, the shorter length. But tell me about the topic area and the people part of it, because I want to suss that out too. Like, is there something about these sorts of projects that resonates with you because of what you're writing about our because of the people?

K- Yeah, you know, definitely. So I grew up on a family farm. My grandparents raised vegetables that we would take to public market, and we worked there from basically the time we could walk until we graduated college. But there wasn't a place to be on the family farm. So it's a way to stay connected to agriculture, I'm really passionate about promoting the lifestyle and the work ethic. It's kind of a larger expansion of the horse industry. You know, I got my start writing for horse magazine specifically, but that's a very niche area. And so by encompassing the greater agriculture industry, I love connecting with people on the innovative things that they're doing on their farms. I've written a lot about dairy farms that capture the methane gas and turn that into renewable energy, other farms that are trying other really innovative sustainability practices to be good stewards of the land while feeding all of us here. So those are the projects that really get me excited to be able to bring those to the forefront.

J- Yeah, Katie, this is really cool. So I'm gonna say back to you some of the things that you just said to me, because I think this might help a little bit with focus, right? So when you're presented with some projects, and you have to decide whether or not you're going to take them, so you said, I don't have it in me to write 2000 word stories anymore that require seven to eight different interviews. "I really prefer shorter stories with one expert. I prefer things that I can work on for a short amount of time." And a lot of these, it sounds like, are tied to your family's legacy. Right? So staying connected to agriculture, promoting that lifestyle, promoting work ethic, talking about innovative practices within farming. And I also hear from you that profiles and talking specifically to people who are doing really interesting things is very exciting. So does that sound on point? Is there anything else you want to add to that sort of ideal work picture?

K- I think you summarized it perfectly.

J- Yeah. So here's what I love to do with people. You're obviously, you know, talented. And there is a lot of work out there that you could choose, right? So you're in this great moment of having the choice. It can be really tough, especially after functioning in a year of a pandemic to say no to different assignments, right? One of the things that we should talk about is getting you more time because you want to build out these parts of your business. This and it's gonna require some time to lean into those— the marketing side and the coaching side. So what might it look like for you to say no to some of these things that don't align with this sort of rulebook of what makes you excited?

K- You know, I took one small step,.I had a client,that was a really low -aying client. And I finally said to them, I just can't do this anymore. And I was nervous about it at first. And of course, I presented it very nicely, and thank them for the opportunity. And it was kind of cool. The editor wrote back and said, You know, I was a freelancer once before to o and understand that, you know, our budget isn't the biggest and that you may need to take on other assignments. And so it was kind of interesting to feel that relief, that it wasn't a negative Parting of the Ways. And I think that might be part of it, you know. I'm afraid a little bit if you end that relationship, that it's kind of severed forever, when you don't really know what might be available down the road. Aand also, certainly that piece of turning down the income at that moment.

J- Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's scary, right? There's no way for it not to be a risk. But I think part of this is actually choosing stuff that makes you excited, right? Like choosing to spend your time on these projects that aren't going to feel like they're chafing, they're grating at you. So one of the things I am going to have you do is a little client audit, just to check in with all of the different folks you're working with, if you have folks you're working with on a regular basis to say, are they giving me the signs that I love this thing? Or are they giving me the signs of burnout? Right? You told me procrastination, it's not fun anymore. I'm curious, can you tell me how your body feels when you are doing something that's exciting? Or how your brain feels? Like, are you on a roll? Do you feel open? Do you feel tense? What does it feel like to do work that you're really excited about?

K- So this is perfect timing for this question, because I just returned from a five day intensive coach training, learning how to partner with horses in this work. And it was intense. It was eight to five every day on the top of a mesa in southwest Colorado with 40 mile an hour winds. But you know, to be out in the arena with the animals that I love was really invigorating. It's how I used to always feel about every piece that I wrote. And I'd love to be able to bring some of that back into my writing work. But it just felt like you know, even though I was tired from the work and from travel, just like this energy that kind of radiated throughout my body on a level of creativity that I hadn't had in a while. Sometimes I think when I get so into the churn and burn routine, like I don't have time to think big picture and be strategic. Because I'm stuck in the moment. And so to give myself that space was a pretty cool reminder that I need time to think outside of just writing.

J- Yeah, absolutely. There's no way to get perspective when we're buried in this sort of day to day of writing, writing, writing, writing, you know, handing things to clients. I think I'm going to put down that what we're going for is that feeling of being in the arena with your horse, right? You said this radiating energy. So that's what we're going for. I mean, not every project is going to feel that way. But I really think I want a large portion of your work to feel that way. Right? That's what makes this sustainable. So that's what we're chasing.

K- Exactly.

J- Yeah. So why don't we talk a little bit practically about planning what it would look like to lean more into the content marketing work and to lean maybe a little bit towards this coaching work too. So catch me up on where you're at with sort of stepping away from journalism a little bit and towards this marketing work? Do you have clients that look like that? Have you sat down to get some perspective on this? Where are you at in the process of making that move?

K- I have a couple of clients that I would call content clients, although, you know, they are reported with like one or two experts, but they're for outlets that I would consider content more than straight up journalism. So I have about half of my monthly income goal kind of set every month, which leaves the other half to needing the hustle. I also was approached by a company that is developing a new product in the horse industry. And it looks like we're finally going to kick off actually doing their entire content strategy from beginning to end. They're a brand new developed product, and they need help bringing it to the market. So if that goes through, that would be kind of like my first big actual content client. And so I kind of feel like that's maybe where I'm stuck a little bit. I've gotten a lot of interest. I've done some quotes. But I haven't really signed folks on with recurring work.

J- Yeah, this work takes time. Right? I think folks always are like I'm having the conversations. And I think it takes sometimes six months or so of talking to them and like their onboarding. And I mean, it just takes so much longer than you want it to take, which isn't a sign that you're doing anything wrong. Honestly, I think it's just the pace at which a lot these companies move. But tell me, what do you feel like needs to happen for you to move that ball a little bit further down the road?

K- I think part of it is that I need to set aside time, whether it's a half an hour or an hour, a couple of days a week or every day to really work on the relationship building. You know, I've heard from other writers that this type of work really depends on relationships, and not just, Hey, are you working with writers but you know, consistent follow up and sharing points of interest. And I just haven't had a chance to do that, because of everything else that kind of takes precedence when you're on a deadline. And so I think that that would be helpful to kind of really focus on making that effort to market.

J- Yeah, what do you want that to looklike? You said, maybe every day, maybe every week? What, what would be the ideal scenario there?

K- I would love to have an hour every day. That would be my ideal. I guess I'm not quite sure how to get there from where I am.

J- Yeah. So tell me what would get in the way of that.

K- So right now, because I still am accepting journalism work, you know, a lot of it is interviews, setting up a lot of interviews on the phone or via zoom with sources, I do try to get them to respond via email. But sometimes that's not always rich enough, or it doesn't work in their schedule. So that's a piece of it. Another piece of it is, and this piece is probably growing pains. But I had picked up a couple of coaching clients. And so when you fill them in to the week, that does take up time that was previously dedicated to marketing. But I need to kind of figure out ways to fit in both.

J- Yep, totally, I have been there. And that struggle, it does take up a lot of time. What I'm hearing from you is that you maybe need to accept less journalism work, which I think is what you were alluding to at the beginning. But that might mean a few months of slightly reduced income. Right? So is that possible in your current scenario financially to, you know say Okay, I'm gonna— imagine taking two or three assignments a month off your docket? What would that look like for you? Is that possible?

K- Yeah, that's so that's a scary thought. I will also say this: You know, I had a lot of people ask why I waited so long to start my freelance business. And for me, it was because I have watched other people in my life struggle financially. And I did not want that to be the case. So I had put away two years worth of salary before leaving. And so I can financially do that, I need to mentally be able to say, That's okay to do that. I tend to be very driven by budgets, given my you know, professional history, and also, you know, watching others around me. And so that's the piece, I feel like I have a hard time trusting that it will all work out in the end.

J- I very much feel you on that I'm very driven by the numbers on my spreadsheets. And watching those numbers drop during certain months makes me feel like a failure. Right? So I think part of this, it's two-prong, right? One, part of it is maybe considering this time, and some of those funds as an investment. The other part of it is sort of redefining what a successful month looks like for you if it's not about the money. So for the first part, I do have a thought, which is that I've had this work for clients before and for myself, which is that you say, Okay, I'm gonna be okay with making $2,000 to $3,000 less in June and July, because I'm going to use that time as an investment in my business, and you take the money from your savings, and you pay it into your checking. So it looks like you're getting a paycheck.

K- Ah, I like that idea.

J- It's surprisingly helpful, because it helps you feel like your bottom line is still absolutely the same, right? And that your past self is giving your current self a gift. But the success thing, I think, is the harder part. That's the mental part. Right? So I mean, tell me if money wasn't a part of the equation, what would make your business successful to you? What would make it feel like you were successful?

K- So I think for me, it's really a balance of bringing in enough income to feel secure financially, but also, to the point where I wouldn't even necessarily have to work 40 hours a week. I really value being able to have flexibility in my schedule and some free time, working full time and building a business at the same time for so long was exhausting. And it's been nice to have days where I can say, you know what, I just need to relax today. So looking at more of those kind of days where there's a lot of work to be done, but then also knowing that, you know, a slower pace could be equally acceptable at different periods throughout the year.

J- Yeah, I can hear that you're tired. Like you've just been working really hard and doing a lot and so I think on a lot of levels probably the answer, although it is very difficult answer, is to slow down for a couple of months. To get the perspective to make the connections to build the sort of next iteration of your business, right? You've spent a year absolutely crushing it. And now, you're gonna pivot a little bit, but you actually can't pivot if you're already in a pressure cooker. Right? There's no space. So making that space is I think, what you're telling me that you need.

K- I think that summarizes it well. You know, I am on the older end of the millennial sector. And you know, sometimes our generation gets flack for not working hard or not wanting to work hard. But I think about how, you know, basically, when you grow up on a farm, you start working, you know, literally from the time you can walk, and so I feel like I'm ready for retirement even though I'm not anywhere near old enough. And I have thought about the fact that, you know, I haven't even given myself really time to transition and what it would be like to maybe take a month or two off and just kind of decompress.

J- Yeah, so what would it look like to do that for a month or two? This summer?

K- That would look fantastic. I mean, I have all sorts of reading I could catch up on. Time at the horse barn, you know, a lot of things.

J- Yeah. So I think this is a big thing to consider for you. Right? Like, what's interesting is, you said to me, a successful business would mean working less, right? Having a flexible schedule. So for you the success is not just about the money, it's also about the lifestyle. And so this would be a way to enact that for yourself, right? Okay, I've built this safety cushion for myself, right? Like I've, I've done all this work for so many years to get to the point where maybe I could take a deep breath, because you will probably need that deep breath in order to take a risk, again, by building out different parts of your business. It is possible to run headlong into that. But then burnout is sort of inevitable, I think. So let's like have an imaginary scenario here, where you decide you're going to take six weeks off this summer, what would you need to do now, if that was going to happen in late June or early July?

K- If I were going to do that I would need to work far enough ahead that I could meet existing deadlines I have contracted out that far. So I would need to get the work done in the next six weeks to be able to make that happen. And I'm just thinking how that would logistically work.

J- Yeah, what about delaying some of those projects? Or even turning them down? Like in a hypothetical world? What would that look like?

K- You know, it would feel really freeing. It would be hard to say no. But what I could envision saying is this deadline, you know, isn't going to fit into my schedule at the moment. If you're still interested, I could have it to you by whatever that new date is, after those six weeks is over, and give them the option of if it's content that has to go right away, then it's done. And if not, you know, it could still potentially be a project down the road.

J- Yeah, it's interesting, I can hear your whole body relax, even though I can't see you. Like, just imagining that, which is a good sign. It's the sort of relaxed outside with your horse in the arena sort of feeling that we're going for, right? Versus the procrastination pressure cooker feeling. So I think that's what we want to chase. I think one of the exercises I'm going to give you is just to sort of sit down and imagine that you are actually going to take those six weeks off and create a couple scenarios, right? Okay, so maybe I would turn down all this work, or maybe I would delay all this work and just sort of think about what that might look like, right? Scenario a, scenario B, and see which one feels comfortable, if any, because I think you have so much so many exciting ideas, that you're going to need the space and time to think about them in that sort of squiffy way before you implement them, right? This coaching stuff and the marketing stuff and all the enthusiasm for agriculture and farming. And so it does feel to me like the time off is the answer to all of that, and to the burnout.

K- Yes, it's funny, I'm sure you can appreciate this. I've been learning a lot about the Clifton Strengths recently. And my top strength is futuristic, which means I always have all these ideas running around in my head all the time. And looking forward. And it's funny to see how that actually feels at this moment in time. And to better understand that that's why I feel that way. And that's what feeds that tendency.

J- Yeah, you know, I think this is why I said at the beginning, I see you as an entrepreneur. You know, writing may be one phase of this or one part of this, but you are incredibly good at thinking big, right? And planning and having ideas and being able to chase those ideas it seems to me to be really important to you to be able to build things and connect with people and have ideas, right? Like you don't have to stay locked into this structure that you've built. Just because it worked doesn't mean you have to keep doing it.

K- Yep. It's just a hard realization to come to after working so hard towards one goal. And now you say, Oh, well now there's another one.

J- Yeah, I was reading the other day about this thing called arrival fallacy, where we think that when we set goals, when we meet them, that our lives are going to be better. And sometimes they are. But it's actually the process of working towards those goals that teaches us the things and there is often nothing extra when we get there. And I think it's true for everyone. And the person I was listening to talk about this was saying, she actually like no longer expects that she will feel any life improvement when she hits those goals, that it's sort of setting herself up for failure. And it's really just the process of having some sort of direction is what she likes about the goals, right? Like understanding what she's running towards for those times. So I don't think it means it was a failure if you don't want to do it anymore. You've learned so much.

K- I appreciate you sharing that that's helpful to think on.

J- Yeah, it resonated with me very much, because I'm very much a goals person. And also like, you have lots of ideas, right? And so, yeah, it's just important to remember that we never arrive. There is no arrival. Well, Katie, I think that that is a good place for us to stop. But I'm gonna send you a bunch of different pieces of homework. I think part of this is going to be just building out some scenarios for how to get you some space, right? And then on top of that, once you have that space, having some time to think about which clients are serving you and which ones aren't. Which ones do you want to take with you, right? And which ones you want to leave behind? And what new things you want to build. But my guess is, once you have this space and time, those things will come. Those ideas will come. So do you have anything else you want to talk to me about before we hop off?

K- No, I would just say thank you for having me on and I had some really enlightening moments and look forward to to digging into the homework that you have to send along.

J- Awesome. It was great to have you here. Thanks, Katie.

K- Thank you.

W- It was good to hear someone else's perspective on burnout. I think we talked about it a lot. But hearing what it feels like for Katie to be burned out was pretty insightful for me.

J- Agreed. I think she has a pretty classic case on burnout. And it makes sense given how much she's been working right. When she said her work doesn't feel fun anymore. And she's procrastinating. She feels like the work is harder to get done. Yeah, it's classic signs.

W- classic case. Do you know if she actually decided to take time off?

J- Yeah. So she actually did. We recorded this episode in May, which you could probably tell from that conversation. And as we're publishing this episode is going to be August or September, depending on how you're listening to this if you're a member or not. And I spoke with Katie a few weeks ago, and she is actually taking November through January completely off. So she picked up a few projects now that are going to support those 12 weeks of time to plan for her next steps.

W- I love that. Three months off is one of those things where you first hear about it and you think freelancers can't do that. But I think if you start from the premise that it's possible, then you can craft a strategy around it.

J- Yeah, totally. Lately I've been harping on this idea of a paradigm shift being needed for many freelancers who feel super trapped and burned out. Like, what if there was another way? Would you take it? I think most of us would say yes, right? What if there was a way to take all this time off? What if there was a way to not feel trapped and not feel burned out and not feel stressed? So it's really cool to watch Katie live that out and create a strategy to support this thing that she wants. Right? So she is going to spend some of her time off thinking about the next iteration of her business, which will hopefully help with the burnout thing, right? So she's doing something new.

W- For sure. It sounds pretty aligned with what you're doing at the moment too, Jenni.

J- Yeah. Serendipitously so, I think. You know, this is why I think coaching is cool. As much as people learn from us, I also learned so so much from working with folks too. It's a very symbiotic process for me. So if you are a Patreon member, you're going to get homework. Some of the homework you heard me offer to Katie. So there is a worksheet that's going to help you map out possible scenarios for your business, a worksheet on identifying burnout so that you can see the signs and signals of what that might look like, and a client rulebook. We're also going to pull in some resources from the past, including a business audit, and rescue strategies for burnout from writer and creativity coach Alex Leviton, who was on our podcast a couple seasons ago. All of that is going to be on our website as the Banish Burnout Booster Pack. Say that 10 times fast.

W- Well, on that note, we are going to head out and get back to our own work so we can both take copious time off in the coming weeks.

J- I love it. So we have two regular season episodes left: this one and one more. And then if you're a Patreon member, you are also going to get access to our q&a episode at the end of the season, which is always a super good one. Wudan and I are answering all the questions that y'all have about business building. And even at the $3 a month tier you have access to that. So if you haven't signed up for Patreon, go ahead and do that and you will get that extra episode.

W- We hope you get to take a short break from work at the end of summer, too. And we will just see you all in a few weeks.

J- Bye, Wudan.

W- Bye, Jenni. Season three of The Writers' Co-op is made possible by you, our listeners. Susan Valot is our editor and Jen Monnier. works as our producer, and the show is written and co-hosted by me, Wudan Yan and Jenni Gritters.