Retain Your Clients

SEASON 3, EPISODE 8:

As freelancers, we don’t get what we don’t ask for. If we don't ask our favorite clients for more work, we probably won't get it. The good news is, there’s a really easy fix for coming back to clients who you want to continue a relationship with: Build that process into your business plan. At the close of every project, decide how you want to continue the relationship. Maybe you want to ditch the client altogether -- that’s completely legit. But if you’ve got the space to continue that relationship, say so! If you’re looking to offer other services to that same client, tell them! This week on the show, Wudan coached Mahima Jain on this very topic. Mahima is an independent journalist based in India who writes about environment, gender, and society. She has published in Indian and global publications such as the Fuller Project, BBC, Earth Island Journal, The Caravan Magazine and others. Her work has been supported by several international grants and fellowships (Earth Journalism Network, International Women’s Media Foundation, and others). You can check out more of her work at: https://mahimajain.in or on Twitter @theplainjain or Instagram @mahima.a.jain. Mahima has done a lot of great work and it makes sense to continue building the relationships she has. But because journalism assignments are often presented in a one-and-done fashion, she finds projects sailing away once they wrap up --

even though she’s eager to work with those same editors again. We can psychoanalyze to no end why freelancers tend to let good clients go. Maybe there’s a part of us that feels like “it’s too soon” to ask for more work. We don’t want to feel like we’re coming on “too strong” to a client. But Wudan's personal philosophy is this: It doesn’t hurt to tell people where you stand. Maybe you want to work together but not immediately, since you’re already booked for the next month or so.

Full Transcript Below:

Wudan Yan- Hi, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Writers' Co-op.

Jenni Gritters- I'm Jenni 

W- And I'm Wudan. 

J- How's it going, Wudan?

W- It's not too bad. It's summer, of course. So I'm taking quite a bit of time off, running into the woods taking work slow. What about you, Jenni?

J- Yeah, same here. We are finally, out of this nuts heatwave. To be honest, it was pretty scary. At one point, my Wi Fi went out because the cables expanded in the heat, it was 110 here in Bend. And I've never really been in heat like that. Boston was hot. But this is a whole different level of hot. So yeah, other than melting, I'm also starting my coaching program, my coaching training program, which is super fascinating. We actually have to be coached ourselves first. And so I'm getting a lot of hands on experience with a lot of the tools that I'll then be able to use with other people. And I keep thinking during the training that like if I could have picked a job in college, I might have picked this because it's psychology, helping people with organization, mentorship, self exploration, it like actually contains all the things I have loved in my past job. So that is a great thing for me. And then in the training itself we've been spending a lot of time on the idea that like everybody's journey is unique and important. And I think that's changing the way I look at people and the way I coach people the idea that there's not really like a right or a wrong answer. And my job is to help people find their own paths. Yeah, I'm just I'm really digging it. I think it's really freeing and expansive. What about you, Wudan? I know you're digging into some longer form reporting, right?

W- Yeah, I am. It's weird. I always say it's weird, because I don't think I've ever really been in that space where I can just do work on those projects, and not really have to worry about money coming in regularly. Because I was not as organized financially as I was until I don't know, maybe two years ago or something. So it feels good to get to that point of just feeling like it's gonna be okay. And I can take my time. And the money is going to come to me when it comes to me. So that's been cool.

J- Yeah, it's cool, because in the first episode of the season, you were talking about craving some of this longer, bigger work. So it's awesome to hear that tracking out. And I'm sure you're spending lots of time in the reporting after 18 months of not being able to do it.

W- Yeah, absolutely. So before we dive into this episode, we wanted to mention that this episode is sponsored by Lily. Whether you're a freelancer or a side hustler, you have a lot to worry about, from the big things like how to grow and maintain your client list to the little things, whether it's like putting on pants to get your 2pm coffee. But one thing that you shouldn't have to worry about is your bank account.

J- Lily is the first online bank account specifically designed for freelancers. You can manage both your personal and business finances all from the same place while you're using Lily. You can organize all of your purchases the same way you would organize your dating preferences, which I love, by swiping left for life and right for work. And then at the end of every quarter Lily also sends you an automatic detailed expense report that you can write off. So anything you bought, like you know if that new office chair or a new app for your computer, all of that gets to be a write off on your tax return.

W- Lily also works to make tax season a little less painful, which we all know is a huge win for freelancers. They've created something called the tax bucket, which automatically sets aside a percentage every time money comes in. So you don't have to worry about a huge bill from the IRS in April. That's a feeling of relief that you just don't really get from your traditional bank.

J- Lily is obviously designed by freelancers for freelancers, because I think they've thought of everything that I would want to put in an online bank account. They also offer an invoicing tool that allows you to accept direct payments from clients with no fees, no minimum balance requirement, 1% interest on your emergency savings account, and overdraft protection of up to $200.

W- Opening an account won't have any impact on your credit score. And if you sign up using the code, thewriterscoop, no punctuation, they'll add 25 free dollars to your account when you spend 250 within the first 45 days.

J- We will include a link to Lily in our show notes as well as information about that code. Lily is banking designed for freelancers, it's refreshing to hear about a financial system designed just for people like us and we think you should definitely check it out. Okay, so back to the episode. Wudan, whodid you talk with this week?

W- This week I coached Mahima Jain. Mahima is an independent journalist and editor based in India. She writes about environment gender, science, culture and socioeconomic issues. She has been pretty impressive. Her work has been supported by several international grants and fellowships, including the Earth Journalism Network, the International Women's Media Foundation, and more. She has written for the Fuller Project, BBC, Earth Island Journal and many others. So in our session, we talked about the concept of offboarding, boundary setting, money, and more. Here is that interview. Hi Mahima. And welcome to The Writers' Co-op. 

Mahima Jain- Hi, Wudan.

W- It's lovely to have you here. And I'm excited to speak about your freelance business. So to start, why don't you tell me about your business? What services are you offering right now? And what is the structure of your business like?

M- Last year, my services, mainly journalism, that is reporting. But this was kind of an aberration from the time since I started my freelance career, it was more 50/50 between editing projects and freelance writing. But I had this thing that I should follow my passion. And in 2019, towards the end, I gave up my editing job, which was like a part time gig, my main anchor gig, thinking I'll write in 2020. But then I trips planned all the way through the year. But of course, the pandemic happened. So then I focused mainly around 80% to 90% of my services were mainly writing features on gender, health, environment, travel science and culture.

W- Yeah, that's a pretty hard pivot, especially how the pandemic kind of derail things for you, it seems like.

M- Yes, definitely, I did have to kind of rethink what I wanted to do. As soon as the pandemic began, I could see that none of my reporting plans would work out. And I also had to shift cities, which meant that stability of being in the same place was gone. So in a way, it took me to one month to kind of in March, April, kind of to stabilize myself. And then we also had a few COVID scares at home. So that was another thing. So in all, I ended up working only about 9 to 10 months last year. But it in a strange way, pushed me to find good work. So I'm kind of very proud of the work that I produced last year, it is perhaps my best, and the most I've been paid is last year, like for per article, it must be the highest last year.

W- I'm really happy to hear about that silver lining. So Mahima, can you tell me about where you want your business to go, and maybe, you know, in that response, say a little bit about what you learned in the past year, and how that informed the direction that you want your business to go in now.

M- So one thing that I learned was that I was taking on a lot of freelance projects, writing gigs, which would involve a lot more work, but were not paying me enough. So that would mean that I was working harder and longer hours, but was not making the amount of money. But last year, I realized that that wasn't the best way to do this. And I was part of a few grants and fellowship programs, which kind of helped me anchor myself in a way that I could look for better paying projects, because they gave me the time to kind of scope out new work, or new editors or places where I could place my articles, which will pay me better, you know. So that's one learning that sometimes it takes time to build that relationship. But you know, if you persevere, it is possible. And I'm just trying to figure out how to convert those gigs into more recurring gigs. Like, if I can get go back to them with more work. And if they will take more of my work, that's one thing that I want to do. And so in terms of visualizing my career, I really would like to write for such high paying platforms and maybe write fewer pieces, but better, more research-driven longform pieces. And on the side, I would also like to kind of get back to my anchor gig, or maybe find a better paying anchor gig, which would be in the editing or content development space, which is what I was doing before. Or as you said before, maybe kind of diversify, you know, and find a few more of these long term clients.

W- That's great. I love how you are already shifting your boundaries a little bit with the type of work that you want, based on what you learned. What are the few things that I can help you with in the time that we have today?

M- It would be useful if you could kind of shed light on how I could pitch to more international clients or international publications because I am based in India, and one thing I've realized is Indian publications don't pay enough. They just don't have the budget and for a long time I've written for them. And it has meant that sometimes they don't even offer traveling expenses and I have to then work on my own to get grants so that I could then do the kind of reporting I want to do. And I have been lucky in that department, I'd say, because over the years, I have gotten a few grants. But that is not a sustainable model. Because at some point grants are going to run out. And so that that's the thing that I would like to go to publications, which would pay me the kind of money I deserve, and also kind of give the expenses and kind of understand that I don't have to pay out of my pocket to, you know, do the reporting that I want to do. And one thing I also realized with grants is that I was earlier getting a lot of micro grants, which is like $1000, $1,500. And once I started writing for publications, which pay better, which was last year, I realize, I didn't have to work as hard to get those micro grants. If I chose a better publication, I wouldn't be spending the effort writing those applications. And then again, going through the hassle of pitching all over again, to different publications. So it was like I was double pitching like I would first have to get the grant and I had to get the publication on board. And that was just a lot of time and effort I find. So yeah. If you could probably shed light on how I could minimize the amount of time I strive to spend on getting these better paying projects. Also not having to rely on grants, which are great, you know, for mid-career journalists or early-career journalists, but I feel like that's not sustainable.

W- Yeah, grants are a great way for you to practice to put yourself out there in the same way that you described, of having to pitch to a publisher, and having to pitch to a grantor. In a lot of ways that does create more work. And on the other end of that coin, is that those grants also help build your credibility. And so one question I have for you is, What is your definition of those publications that you think are perhaps you know, within reach, but a little out of your reach that you want to aspire to? What characteristics do they have?

M- In terms of how they pay, they probably hopefully pay $1 and upwards. And also expenses for any travel that can that is incurred while reporting. I am yet to find an Indian publication which pays me $1 a word. So it has always been European, or in the UK, or in the US, you know, your legacy institutions in the West, mostly, or even the new ones like Rest of World and Fuller Project. I mean, I've written for them. And it's been a great experience. And I would love to keep doing that for them again, and again, you know?

W- I'm hearing you say two things. One is that you want to identify more of these publications. And the other one is that you want to continue the relationship at some of these places that meet your criteria for what is a higher paying publication and gives you the support and editorial guidance that you want. Right? So it's really two things here. 

M- Absolutely. That's correct.

W- Yeah. What have you done so far in establishing, you know, either new clients or working with recurring clients? How's that gone so far?

M- New clients is most often cold pitching. And it is really hard because you keep pitching them, and sometimes you don't hear back from them at all. And sometimes it just turns out to be a one-off gig. So I mean, I really don't know what translates from writing for them once or twice, to kind of writing for them more regularly. That's one thing, and that's with the new clients. And, yeah, and the old clients, I just don't know what makes that new client into a client, which I can have for a longer term and call them an old client, you know?

W- So I'm going to introduce a term to you and it's kind of jargony. And it's a term people who run more non-journalism freelance writing businesses use, and that's "offboarding." Have you heard of that? Does it ring a bell? Does it mean anything to you? 

M- No, I have not heard of that. 

W- Yeah, I hadn't either until recently, and I listened to a great podcast episode on The Deliberate Freelancer where the host, Melanie Padgett Powers, interviews, Kat Boogaard, and Kat talks about off boarding. And I realized that it was something I was already doing with my clients. But I didn't have a name for it. And so I think there's a mental thing of formalizing a step in the process of working with a client that describes what happens when you're wrapping up or about to wrap up for project. Does that make sense?

M- Can elaboratea bit more? Like there's a step at the end of the project where we do what, exactly?

W- Exactly. So, off boarding can come in a few different forms. Offboarding is most useful when I want to work with that client again. So first of all, my project with that client in the first place had to have gone pretty well. I can have a pretty good gauge of whether or not that client has enjoyed working with me, if the process was pretty smooth, we were both communicative about, you know, any snags in the reporting process or editing process. And if I was easy to work with. I can get a pretty good gauge of that. And similarly, I want that client to have those similar characteristics that I just described as well. And in some ways, it's kind of like dating. If you've listened to previous episodes of this podcast, Jenni, and I make tons of analogies about this. But do you want to continue the relationship with this client? That's the first question. So if the answer is yes, I do a few things. One is towards the end of the project, or once the check is paid. And in my bank account, I will go back to my point of contact there and say, it was really wonderful working with you on this project. What else are you looking for? And if it's more journalistic, I will say: I've really enjoyed working on the story with you. What other types of stories are you looking for from this region, or from this topic area? Right now, I'm happy to hop on a phone call to discuss more. So that's kind of the two ways I think about offboarding, wrapping up a project, wanting to continuing it and communicating that or saying, I really enjoyed writing for you. I also offer editing and copy editing and fact-checking services. Might you need any of that for your business? And I think that's a great way of, you know, kind of going to a client and being like, these are all my other skills. I just love to continue the relationship. How can we do that? So when I raise those options to you tell me your gut feeling to those?

M- I would totally do that. I haven't done that at all. That sounds like a good idea with a lot of the people I have worked with. I mean, I wonder what that leads to, does that lead to often a call or a little bit of back and forth? I mean, what does it look like for you?

W- Sometimes it's just an email. I think a lot of things can be communicated by email. A client will say, Oh, I have all these other projects, or loopback with me in about a month. And I'll have a better sense of what I need to assign by then. So both of those are pretty helpful. With new publications, sometimes it sounds like it's happened to you to where editors at newspapers or magazines reach out to you and say, I've loved the story that you wrote, do you have any other ideas for XYZ publication. And I always like to hop on the phone, because I want other editors to know how my brain works. And I also want to understand what makes the story a New York Times story versus a Washington Post story versus a Bloomberg story. All of those have different audiences and agendas at different points in time. And I kind of want to be fresh on that. And the other thing that I wonder if this sounds comfortable to you at all, is thinking about all the other clients you've worked with in the past, not even recently, and reaching back out and say, Hi, I really enjoyed working together on this story a few years ago. I am curious what you're looking for right now from other freelancers. I have a few story ideas. I'd love to try by you would you have time for a call?

M- I mean, you know, strange, but I've hardly ever asked editors on call. And I don't know why that is. It's just been emailed, and back and forth. And maybe that also keeps me from having them on as recurring clients. Yeah, could be a good idea to just go back and email them and see if they'd be willing to jump on a call. 

W- Why do you think that's not been something you've done? 

M- I just don't know. Sometimes I think I'm better on email, like, I communicate my ideas better when I have the time to write them down. And, you know, draft it a few times and send it. So I take my time with my pitches. And so when I'm on a call, I don't know if I can't gauge if the editor is on board or you know, they are kind of completely put off by what I'm saying. Maybe that's one reason I never really thought about it, but it just hasn't occurred to me that getting them to get on call would be a great option as well. There have been few people I've gotten a call with and almost certainly they have never worked out. That those relationships have never worked out. 

W- Oh, fascinating. I'm bummed to hear about that. And, you know, we don't really necessarily need to dig into the reasons why they didn't work out. But I think I want to challenge you, in thinking in terms of building relationships, it's clear to me that you have a lot of skills and talent. And in terms of that translating into a more sustainable freelance business, it's really about the relationships. So one homework assignment Mahima, if I was coaching you regularly that I would assign to you is build a list. It can be a Google Doc, it can be an email to yourself, it can be a little handwritten sticky note on your desk, of the editors you've worked with recently, editors you've worked with in the past that you really enjoyed working with, see what they're up to right now see what those publishers are up to right now. And send query emails back to them, similar to what we described. How does that sound as a first step towards this? 

M- That sounds like great step. And yeah, I think I will do that.

W- Great. I'm just curious if that elicits any fear or nervousness around kind of doing that sort of emailing?

M- No, it's not a fear or nervousness. Honestly, it's just something I didn't think of. To me, networking or relationship building was always supposed to be something that people did in person. And in the last year, that's something I've struggled with, because I wondered, how am I going to meet new people or talk to new editors, or writers, or fellow freelancers, if not, in person. I mean, with peers, it's been easier to organize zoom calls and stuff, but with editors, that somehow just wasn't an option. And this second option of just writing to them and asking them for phone call, did not occur, as dumb as it might sound.

W- One thing I think is interesting is that we're talking about editors and clients kind of interchangeably in this conversation. And I think calling somebody else an editor is an act of deference, in a way. And I wonder if you think that creates some sort of hierarchy that editors may be above the writer that's affecting your ability to candidly be yourself around them?

M- Well, that's quite possible. Yeah, I mean, I do sometimes tend to tiptoe around editors, even when I was in the news room. I mean, I was in the news desk. And I was working like the graveyard shift sometimes. And I was afraid of the man in the room. So it could be that I've never thought about it that way. 

W- Have you always been based overseas? 

M- I was in India, for most part, for about five years, I worked in India, this place called The Hindu which is in one of the largest English language dailies. And then for about a year or so I was working in the UK at the London School of Economics as editor again, but this was more like an academic blog. I was working with professors and Academy in the institution. I came back to India. So I mean, it's been mostly India, yes.

W- I get a lot of coaching inquiries from people not based in the US. And the question is always, how do I break into these publications? How do I get editor's attention. And it does require a high degree of assertiveness, I think, in putting yourself out there and asking for what you want. And in this context that we're describing, whether it's this onboarding process that we're talking about, or picking up a potentially new client, what you want is a phone call, to understand how you, and that editor and that publisher, and that client can work together to build a project that you're both proud of. Right. So I think removing that barrier to whatever degree you feel comfortable with, and it sounds like you would be comfortable with a call. It just hasn't really occurred to you. I think that's a good place to start and take note of how that feels. I can say that for me personally, I've had the benefit of living New York City and being based in the US and I make trips back to New York, and non pandemic times, kind of frequently, and I'm able to have that face to face and editors or people to editors have their quirks and curiosities and their pet projects in some way. And sometimes talking to an editor, you realize that a story idea that you had was tied to something related to their master's thesis or something, you know, you can't just make these connections over email, I don't think. I think a call, whether it's Zoom or WhatsApp or whatever really makes a difference.

M- Yeah, it seems like a light bulb just went inside my head. 

W- Yeah, I love that. Mahima we have about five to six minutes left. Is there anything else you wanted to talk through with regards to building your freelance business?

M- As you said, you know, when you're living in the US you can meet people and you know, kind of build relationships. So what that's one thing we spoke a lot about, or previous editors I've worked with. But can we maybe focus on like, how would I then break into new organizations or new publications? And kind of build a relationship there?

W- Totally. So I think, unfortunately, the answer is to keep pitching. But another great way is to build relationships with fellow freelancers. Maybe I shouldn't have said "but." I meant "and." AND you can build relationships with your fellow freelancers. What do I mean by that, right? Look at your peers. We all write for different publications, we all have different specialties. Some people might do tech, but you may be on the precipice of a story that's about gender and tech in India. And I think it's helpful to talk to other freelancers about who they've enjoyed writing for. Sometimes it helps to use that freelancer's name, your colleague's name, when reaching out to an editor and say, Hey, so-and-so told me that you would be a good editor to try for the story I had in mind. Here's my pitch. Sometimes that's really helpful. I've heard that from some of my other colleagues. And other than that, following editors on Twitter, getting a sense of what they're tweeting about, I think is also a helpful way into their brain, just to understand what they're thinking about. So you can better pitch them, I think it's helpful to just continually put yourself out there, every time we send a pitch is an act of bravery, in a way. It is a leap of faith. And the really inspiring thing about your freelance business is that you've done this so many times, not just pitching stories, but also with funders. And I don't think you're a stranger to putting yourself out there. It is a lot of work. But I think investing in relationships pays off in the long term of people eventually coming back to you with a story idea. And then you hop on a call and noodle on it together before winnowing it down to exactly what the story will be about. Or, yeah, I think a lot of good comes from investing in those relationships. And in journalism, at least, there's a lot of horizontal movement for people among publications, and you never know who's really reading your work. There's just no way to know. And some editors, you know, move from publication A to publication M. And when once they're landed at M they're trying to build out their freelance roster. And they really loved the story that you wrote, for publication A. That's, you know, another opportunity to invest in that relationship. Or if there are editors on Twitter who you identify that you really want to write for, follow them, right? Follow them on social media, engage with them on social media. So when you do pitch them, your name in their inbox is less of a stranger at a bar, if you will. It's a little more familiar. So those are some tips I have. What, if any of them, resonate?

M- The Twitter stuff, especially kind of resonates. I do follow a lot of editors on Twitter. And some of them have surprisingly followed me back. And it's it's nice to know that I could go there, but sometimes I just am afraid of taking the first step, I think. And I don't know, like, Okay, what should I tell them? You know, like, I shouldn't be burning the bridge before it's built, you know? So yeah, there is that hesitation sometimes. And I really probably need to just work on that. 

W- Tell me why it would be worth it to you to take that first step. 

M- If it could mean that I get to write the stories I want to write for good publications, that would be good. And I mean, the main thing would still be like the person at the end is someone I kind of admire or follow, and I kind of like their work. And there are a lot of great editors out there and journalists out there. And I mean, I just wish I could follow and work with each one of them. But I somehow can't even make the first step to working with some of them. So that would be a good thing to get out of, if I could make the first step and get to work with interesting people.

W- Yeah, I think practicing making that first step will make doing that again and again and again a lot easier. We've said many times before on the podcast, that bravery and confidence are muscles that we exercise. And just because we exercise and flex them a lot in the start don't mean that they can't lose their tone, we still need to use that, to remind ourselves that those muscles work once they're there. So I think a lot of the things we talked about in the last half hour relate to each other, you've already set a lot of boundaries, and what kinds of clients with regards to journalism you want to work with. And that's awesome. And I would encourage you to get a little organized about that, again, using any of the organization tactics that I talked about, whether it's an Excel spreadsheet, or your email, build a list of publications that meet the $1 word or more, plus expenses criteria. And I also want to say that if a publisher is covering your expenses, you probably don't have to go searching for another grant. Because I think a lot of those grants also just cover hard reporting costs. And building that list means that when you have a story idea, you have a reference point of where you could possibly send that pitch to. It takes the guesswork and the slowness out of the who-do-I-pitch phase out a bit. I would work from there, talk to your colleagues, use Twitter, for better or worse, to do some research on who you want to build relationships with. But the mindset of of investing in those relationships does pay off and, like pitching, when you first begin doing it, it does feel like a leap of faith. 

M-  Sounds like I have a lot of homework to do.

W- Yeah, for sure. I will include all of that in a follow up email to you, Mahima. But otherwise, it was great to chat. And I hope this call was helpful.

M- Yes, it certainly was. Thank you so much for having me. 

W- You bet. All right, talk to you soon.

J- Okay, so wudan, I find it fascinating how many terms and processes that we can take from other business models and applied to journalism. This stuff can be so useful. And I think we can learn a lot from you know, folks who are not just working in freelance writing, right? Marketers, graphic designers, folks in business. So things you talked about in this episode, like reinvigorating relationships with dead clients, or chasing leads, and you know, offboarding sounds super technical, but I think it is really applicable and relevant to freelance writing.

W- Yeah, I hear so frequently from journalists that they had a great experience working with editor at x publication, but it didn't lead to recurring work. And I get asked all the time, how to build relationships with editors after just one story. And the answer really is lay it out, like you already have the contact. So just be an honest human, tell them that you'd like working together, tell them that you want to work on something else.

J- Yeah. This feels like a dating metaphor again. But you know, you don't get what you don't ask for. I was actually reminded of this the other day. I've worked with an editor once before for an alumni magazine. And several months ago, I realized my July was going to be a little bit light, which is funny, because now it's extremely full. But I emailed her, and I just checked in and I was like, Hey, you know, it was great to work together before. Do you need anything else? And when we finished up that first story together, we had agreed via email that we loved working together, and she had said that she would be happy to bring me into another project. So this time around when I needed work, it really was as easy as an email, just saying like, hey, Do you need anything? So yeah, she actually just assigned me two other stories. She assigned me one, the source backed out, she paid a kill fee. And she offered me up another assignment right after that. All of that from a simple email after working together that was just like, Hey, that was great. Do you want to do this again? So yeah, it's like dating, maybe?

W- Yeah, I mean, that email at the close of a project: "Is there anything else I can help with?" I feel like those are the I don't know, how many words are there— Eight? Those are the eight magic words.

J- Yeah, absolutely. It's not always immediate. But I think that like most of my work comes from that kind of relationship building, right? That check-in is definitely my best trick. Because you don't have to dig up new clients every month. Instead, you just consider who is already on your list and who you like that you might want to work with again. So as one of the resources for this episode, Wudan, you wrote us a nifty little onboarding checklist I think, right? Which will be super useful for folks to think about working with your clients going forward. And we're also going to include some sample language to keep the train going if you do want to continue working with them. 

W- Yeah. Recurring work is good work. 

J- It is good work for relationships. 

W- It's good for your business. 

J- It's good for building trust. 

W- Good all around! My soapbox moment is over. 

J- Yes. And on that note, I think we're gonna head out. 

W- Yeah, sounds good by me. I will talk to you in two weeks, Jenni. 

J- Sounds good! Bye, Wudan.

W- Season Three of The Writers' Co-op is made possible by you, our listeners. Susan Valot is our editor and Jen Monnier works is our producer. And the show is written and co-hosted by me, Wudan Yan and Jenni Gritters.