Boost Your Confidence

SEASON 3, EPISODE 3:

If you've ever felt like an imposter or like you don't deserve to ask for a raise, this episode is for you. Our anonymous guest is a freelancer who identifies as a person of color and has over two decades of experience based in the Deep South. But she struggles with remembering how skilled she is and has a difficult time asking for higher pay.

She talks with Wudan about the big moves she wants to make as a freelancer in terms of client base and income goals, and they work through how to get there. Wudan recommends completing a business plan (which you can also do here) and using that plan as a way to bolster your enthusiasm and accountability. It's tough to go somewhere new if you don't have a plan! Once you've worked through a business plan, you'll want to put your ideal rates on a sticky note near your computer or desk. That way, you'll walk into negotiations with a clear focus. When you feel pressured to name a lower rate, you'll have a visual reminder of what you really want. Wudan also assigns our guest a confidence log. Maybe this is where coaching gets a bad rap, and yes, a confidence log sounds like writing positive affirmations on your mirror so you see it every morning. But here's the thing: we're recommending it because it works! We often think about what Melody Wilding said on our secret episode for season one: confidence and bravery are muscles that you continually exercise, and reflection is the fuel that builds a more confident fire. So you tell us: What is the smallest thing you can do today to flex that confidence muscle? Where did that land you with a project or client? If it worked, add it to the log! (We've compiled a bunch of these resources into a Confidence Booster Pack, which you can download here. Patreon members get those resources for free! If you feel like you're not deserving enough, you'll want to check it out.) Jenni and Wudan both offer coaching through their own businesses and through TWC. You can also take a self-guided look at your business via our online courses. Listeners of this podcast may also enjoy the podcast Is This Working? Now in its fifth season, Is This Working? is the podcast where two best friends have honest conversations about money, careers and success. Anna and Tiffany seek to question everything we've ever been taught about work

because they believe that the quality of our lives is as strong as the quality of our work. The best friends are often joined by incredible expert guests, so whether it's issues such as productivity, procrastination, burnout or asking for more money, the Is This Working? hosts have got you covered. A better working life is coming your way! You can find Is This Working? on all pod platforms.***

Full Transcript Below:

Wudan Yan- Hello, and welcome to The Writers Co-op. 

Jenni Gritters- This is Jenni. 

W- And this is Wudan. 

J- Hey Wudan.

W- Hey Jenni, how are you doing?

J- You know, I'm good. I'm really excited for summer. And I'm actually reining in any desire that I have to push hard at my work schedule, which is sort of counterintuitive. But you know, I'm starting my training to become a certified professional coach this summer, and I've been working about 20 hours each week. So honestly, it's nice, I have to sort of tell myself like, this is a really good speed. It's actually a sustainable speed, with lots of outdoor time, you know, lots of time with my kids. So, Oregon in the spring and summer is really glorious. It's been nice. How about you?

W- I'm ok. Things are going. I think I've said this on a few platforms, but I don't think I've said that here yet. About a month and some change ago, I started working with an executive coach of my own. 

J- Oooh, I love that. That sounds really cool. Can you tell us more about it? 

W- Yeah, I mean, just like therapists need their own therapists, coaches also need their own coaches, I was noticing some growing pains in me managing two businesses, so that's my own freelance writing business and this, The Writers' Co-op, and I realized that I have much more than I can actually take on. And so I called in for some help.

J- I mean, I think this is super smart. People are always asking us how we're doing all of this, like managing The Writers' Co-op, managing our own businesses. And the answer is that it is sometimes not great. So how is the coaching going for you?

W- It's been illuminating so far. And it's also been really fun. I'm trying all sorts of things to make my business more streamlined and simplified in a way that I didn't think it really could be. So I really have enjoyed that. 

J- Yeah, what have you tried so far? 

W- One of the main things that was burning me out was being asked to speak on stuff all the time. Fact-checking, freelancing, you know, other things I've reported on. So previously, I was like, I have a quota for three hours of unpaid stuff every month. And that was reserved for speaking gigs if that client didn't have a budget, right? And then I realized that being on those speaking events, is a lot of energy out. And I really get literally nothing back if I do it for free. So I've eliminated that. I always say that even if I were at a conference, and I had to talk for free, but the conference was covered for me that at least I could draw energy from other people. And that's missing in a lot of these virtual settings. So that's one thing. And the other thing is that I just stopped making myself available for Friday meetings. I want less time talking. It not only makes me thirsty—I'm literally chugging a Nalgene of water right now—but it also takes way too much energy, I need more time for me to do my own work.

J- Yeah, I love this. I have similarly stopped taking meetings on Wednesday and designated it as a day to work on projects, to work on writing. And it is revolutionary to not have to show up for anyone. I'm so much more productive. I think it is huge. We've been accountable to a lot of people for the past year. So I love that you're scaling back on this. You're gonna have to keep us updated on this, for sure., and on some of the other experiments. But let's see, before we jump into the show, and who you talked with today, and all of those things, we have a plug for our listeners, right Wudan?

W- Yes, we do. So listeners of this podcast may also enjoy Is This Working?. Now in its fifth season, Is This Working is the podcast where two best friends have honest conversations about money, careers and success. Anna Codrea-Rado and Tiffany Philippou seek to question everything we've ever been taught about work because they believe the quality of our lives is as strong as the quality of our work. The two are often joined by guest experts. So whether it's topics on productivity, procrastination, burnout or asking for more money, Is This Working has got you covered. A better working life is coming your way you can find is this working wherever you podcast.

J- This is such a good show. I listen almost every every week to every episode. I really love the first episode of their new season where they talk about being known as a professional freelancer who gives advice and then still feeling like you don't have it figured out. That resonated with me so very much. I have also been recommending Anna's new book, which is called You're The Business to everyone. It is all about, you know, the things we love. The business of freelancing. So Wudan, on that note, who is on our show this week? 

W- Yes, this week, I spoke with a freelance writer who wanted us to keep herself anonymous, which we granted. She is a writer based in the Deep South who has been freelancing on and off for about two decades and also does some admin work on the side. Here is that conversation. Hi, and welcome to The Writers' Co-op.

Guest- Thank you. I'm excited to be on here. I heard this is a very popular cast. So I'm pretty pumped.

W- Yeah, for sure. Well, why don't we jump right into it? Tell me about your business. What kind of services do you offer? And who do your clients tend to be?

G- Sure. So I've been doing this for about 12 years total about doing it specifically since 2012, as a primary source of income. So about nine years. And when I started, I started out doing a lot of writing work. But also virtual assistant, so things like checking people's emails, doing social media management, that sort of thing. And writing mostly for regional magazines here in my area. And that was it. And so it kind of grew a little bit from there. I started writing for a trade magazine, which was great. And I've been able to get published many, many times in the last nine years or so. And most of what it is, is nonfiction, usually interviews or profiles of folks, things like that. So I've tried to move away from VA stuff now. I kind of want to focus in specifically on just writing, that's what I'm best at. So that's what I've been doing. For the last, I'd say, a year or so specifically, I haven't been doing any kind of admin work.

W- So it sounds like you're looking to focus mostly on writing and phasing out the virtual assistant work, although it sounds like maybe that can be something you could fall back on if you needed to? 

G- It's possible. Yeah. And actually, I'm currently doing some junior QA work for a company. So that's actually where most most of my income comes from is from them. I work a few hours with them a week. And it's been really interesting. So now I'm kind of like thinking, maybe I can't become a QA full time, I better start writing more about tech. So now I'm, now I'm writing for more techie magazines and things like that. Hopefully my knowledge will, you know, kind of inform me on how to pitch folks nowadays.

W- Yeah, absolutely. So my next question for you is, tell me about your current work schedule, in terms of how many hours you work per week, how many days you take off a month, things like that?

G- Sure. It is not a schedule, as it probably should be. But generally, that's why we're here. Generally, I'll do the QA work, I'll be on call essentially, for about five hours a day, Tuesday through Friday. And usually Monday is my open day, usually for volunteer work, but also for writing. And so what I should be doing is in the morning, doing my writing, but I have not been doing that. I've been sleeping in. So it's supposed to be like, you know, 10 to 12 writing every day, and it has not been that. Usually it's now like after six on weekends, that sort of thing. But my idea, what I've been striving towards is Monday through Friday, essentially like 10 to 5, so kind of a normal-ish schedule.

W- Got it. So that maps out to about a 35-hour work week. 

G- Yes. 

W- Okay. How do you feel bandwidth-wise, with the work that you have right now? Do you feel like you have the capacity for more? Where do you land on that scale?

G- I think physically have the capacity for but mentally, I do not. Obviously, I'm on call only a few hours a day, typically only get called in for a couple of tickets, maybe two or three hours a week at the most, maybe up to five hours a week. So I have all of this time. So I literally do have the time to fit more in. It's that mentally I don't have the bandwidth currently. I do end up sleeping a lot, most of most of the day, and then if not, then I'm working or, you know, just relaxing. I'm trying to, you know, stay in between this nine to five kind of schedule. But it's been really hard. And so I'm thinking maybe I have to either adjust that, or just try to get into a better brain space that I can get up earlier. I did it today actually, it wasn't too bad. So I feel like I can do it on a regular basis. But it's been very interesting trying to get it to be very, I should say, consistent. It's been very inconsistent lately.

W- I want to say first of all that sleeping in is good self care. 

G- I do like it! 

W- Yeah, I feel amazing every time I get an extra two hours, and not counting the time that I spent answering emails on my phone while I'm horizontal in bed.

G- Right, exactly. That doesn't count.

W- And the other thing I wanted to say up front is that it's pretty challenging in my experience, when a client books you for a certain period of time, as your QA client seems to do, and then you're not actually actively working those entire hours. Right? So it's really hard, in my experience, again, to do small tasks here and there, because there's something to be said about being interrupted.

G- Right. Yes. And that's such a good point because I think my hope was, when I'm not working for QA stuff, I'm doing writing, but I tend to just be kind of looking at my phone. Maybe I'll watch TV, maybe I'll do some reading but not actual, you know, brainpower type work.

W- Yeah, exactly. So for the purposes of this call, do you want to go ahead and tell me two or three things that you're hoping that we can discuss during this meeting?

G- Sure! I know you can't give me more mindspace, but I would like to... that's not a magical power that you have. I would like to just maybe learn some tips on how to mentally adjust so that I can work more things in. I don't usually use an alarm usually, which is kind of why I end up sleeping in a lot. I try to avoid alarms. But I really think I need to push myself to do at least an extra two hours a day for writing and writing stuff. My big goal is to start including that 10 to 12 into my daily schedule. 

W- Sure, what else is there?

G- There's also— Well, I didn't say it's a problem so much. But I've gathered a lot of leads from LinkedIn over the past couple of weeks, I've actually had help with doing that, and I'm also in a mastermind group, and I've been behind in that also. So I really need to focus. If I'm not doing actual writing projects, to focus my time on those leads and my mastermind group. 

W- When you say leads, what does that actually mean? 

G- Essentially, I took about 100 different writing jobs and LinkedIn. And usually try to find the ones that are kind of past tense or the older ones. And I have the information of the CEO when the company and website just to maybe send a message about you know, what the capacity is now for writers or person looking for writers, that sort of thing. 

W- Got it. Okay, so potential clients, you mean and scouting them out and doing discovery calls and all that good stuff? 

G- Yes.

W- I see. In addition to the QA work, what else constitutes your freelance income right now?

G- That's pretty much it. It's pretty much writing. And I haven't been writing as frequently as I should as I mentioned. Writing and QA stuff. So I've written for magazines, most recently. I'm still working on a couple of ideas for stories that I'm working on for TechCrunch and for Wired, and I'm in the final I think editing process of that. So I need to start pitching more ideas to them. So I'm kind of thinking about that too, in the back of my mind, for things to follow up with them on while I get those edited. Yeah that's it. It's pretty much QA stuff and usually writing.

W- Tell me about the money dimension of your business a little, if you're comfortable sharing, how much are you making right now, let's just say per month? And ideally, how much would you be making every month?

G- I think right now, my biggest month was about $1,000, I believe. And a great majority of that is through QA work. Because the caveat with writing for publications like Wired and TechCrunch is that they pay you not very regularly, they don't pay you in advance. So I expect to have some giant, you know, check in a couple of months. But it's hard to gauge that. So I think that's kind of the idea of being always marketing is that I can have a more balanced income if I keep focusing on different, you know, new clients versus trying to rely on a couple of magazines here and there.

W- Yeah, I completely agree with that assessment of finding other clients that are not journalism to bolster the ship and keep it steady. What about your ideal setup? How much would you be making every month?

G- I think in ideal setup I would be making probably about $3,000 a month. My big goal this year was 50k. It's like more than $3,000 a month, but just looking at what I used to make as a full time person. And then accounting for taxes all adds up to be, it'd be good to have about 3k a month to live on. That would be fantastic.

W- Yeah. So let's talk about this aspect first. And I think it ties into what we're saying in creating a little more brain space. I have a lot of conversations with coaching clients that runs similar to this, of needing to figure out income goals and how to figure out the best balance of work that pays the bills, with scoping out new opportunities or working on projects that we really care about that $1,000 a month right now, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but does it feel like you're working a lot to get that money? Where do you land on that scale?

G- It's funny, because it's not a lot. I make great money with the QA folks. So some opportunity, I think $50 or $60 an hour. So I'm not working very much to get that amount, which is nice. But I think mentally It feels like that much. And it's funny. Every time I finish a day I look at my toggle and think "how have I only been working for two hours. This feels like it's been a year." But yeah, usually I try to incorporate breaks, things like that. So I end up filling that space if I can, but yeah, it's not a lot of hours. I could be doing a lot more, really. So that's that's kind of my other thing is that I have my goal is to not work as many hours to make as much money. But I think right now I don't have that kind of luxury as far as one can save up for things. So I need to start, you know, putting out a few more dollars. You know, we have insurance that we have to pay for. It's very expensive. And stuff like that. Just to be able to feel like okay, I'm not just doing bare bones stuff here. Although with a pandemic, we haven't been spending much money. So I have a nice little cushion for the past year.

W- Yeah, absolutely. So the math puzzle I'm trying to figure out right now is you say that $3,000 to $4,000 would be ideal to help you with your income goals. And you're not working a full 35 hours a week, but you have capacity to do so. So when I do that math out, that will come to 140 hours total a month, I'm just gonna do this math live for all of our listeners.

G- Thank you! Yes, because I can't do math. 

W- So you're you have 140 working hours every month, and you want to make 4k. So if we map that out, it tells me that your rate should be at least $30 an hour. What that tells me actually, though, is that you're $50 to $60 an hour is a good starting point, it sounds like you don't actually have to get rid of that QA client or make any adjustments to that. But I want you to, because you're able to get that rate with them, I want you to make that your standard rate for everything else you take on,

G- I would really like to do that. Yeah, my initial goal, because I've been writing for many, many years, is about one to $2 a word. And it's almost working out to be about that much. But for stories like with TechCrunch, and why they require a lot of interviewing, editing, transcribing. And so I think with that, I'm probably not making quite as much per hour as I should be for those. And I don't really get to decide on those particular clients,. I mean I can give them like an idea of what I would like to get, but they'll be like, okay, we're gonna pay this much for this story. There's no negotiation as far as it goes for certain magazines. So that's one thing that is a bit of a barrier. So it will be definitely great to find at least one more client where I can say, this is my minimum rate, this is where I'm going to start out because this is what I needed to do make that 4k a month.

W- Walk me through what happens when a publisher like TechCrunch or Wired tells me Oh, we'll pay you $1 a word. How do you make the business decision of how much time you would be able to spend on that piece?

G- I think that's probably where the problem lies. I usually end up doing a bit too much for too little time. Most of the stories I've done require, I'd say, a half dozen interviews, which takes time to obviously find the folks, get them to commit to a schedule, interview them, transcribe the notes, come up the draft, and I'm on version three of a draft right now for one company. So I mean, it's a lot of time, I would like to not spend as many hours on it. But it really depends on the project. So what I would like to do is maybe not spend so much time sourcing and maybe look for stories that maybe only require one or two sources for those publications, to kind of cut down on the time that it takes for me to finish these. And obviously, like I mentioned earlier from our conversation, I do have anxiety and depression. And so it does feel like I have less capacity than most people. And I think I'm trying to do the capacity of a 100% well person, when I'm really only 70%. And a lot has to do with pandemic, obviously. The pandemic is throwing me off pretty much in every way. I mean, it's like that for everyone nowadays. And it's hard, it's hard to want to get things done when the world is on fire.

W- I completely empathize. And I think realizing that your actual working hours may be less, but you need to make more, to me is more of a justification to raise your rates. So when I say that, what is your initial like reaction to that?

G- Well, my initial reaction is it won't work for those two clients. But because with some publications, it's a flat fee, or you don't get to write the story at all. There's no wiggle room in that. I think it just depends on whatever the media publication's budget is. So a private company or private client might be easier to do negotiations with for that now, I would not be able to do that. So what I need to do is either find the client that will negotiate or spend much less time working on more projects for the two publications. So just so I can, you know, say that it's worth the amount of effort and time put into something.

W- Mm hmm. Tell me the feeling that you get when you might have to give these clients up and look for publishers that would pay more.

G- Oh, it's so sad. But at the same time, you're a writer also, you don't marry your clients, you don't marry your stories. The idea is to write on other things for other publications. So it would be fine to drop them or to put them aside for other publications because once I make those bylines now, they can't take them away from me, so I can say I've been published in TechCrunch and Wired and then move on without having to work with that ever again.

W- Exactly. Some clients who you know can't exactly pay your bills and pay your rent can be a really important stepping stone for the next thing in your freelance career and frankly, that's how I viewed a lot of publishers who I've written for that others would consider to be prestige clients. 

G- Exactly that those are prestige clients. 

W- Yeah. So I think that's a point that's worth thinking about as you're rebuilding your freelance business so you can triple, quadruple your monthly income, right? One thing that I do when I get an assignment is Oh, somebody can only pay $1,000. Well, if my hourly rate is $100 an hour, I can't spend more than 10 hours on this. Is that feasible? If yes, continue. And if not, ditch and look somewhere else.

G- Right. Pitch it somewhere else. Yeah, it would be hard. I do like the folks that I work with which, you know, it's sometimes really hard to find good editors. 

W- Absolutely. 

G- Even if they don't pay as much, it's, it's been fun working with them. So it would be tough to walk away. But at least if I do, I can probably spend more of my mind looking for other clients. And once I, you know, make good money, I can come back to them and say, Hey, I gotta tell the story. I know, I can take 500 for because I'm already making money doing something else. So they won't have to go away forever. I'm not, you know, I'm employed to them.

W- Exactly. And you said something fascinating earlier that Jenni and I have stressed on our previous episode of The Writers' Co-op, which is look for lower hanging fruit, right? You still have these relationships, you like those relationships. And so it's really a matter of making sure the scope of work is limited enough so that you can still meet your financial needs.

G- Exactly. That's very true. And it's funny that I didn't think I would ever have prestige clients as low hanging fruit, but they kind of are now at this point. Yeah. I've worked with for a little while now.

W- How does it feel when we talk about that, come up with a different way of working with these clients, that's more on your own terms?

G- It's hard, because I know that means starting a new relationship with someone else. And I know that takes time and effort. And I don't know how to put this without sounding weird. But a lot of it has to do with the fact that I'm a black woman. And I'm working with black editors who understand me and who I think take me seriously, which isn't always something that happens when you're a black woman doing freelancing work for companies. They don't take you seriously, they don't return your calls or emails, and they will pay you less. So it's kind of important for me to find, I think, some of these more black-owned businesses that will pay me what I'm worth, because I know it's difficult to get paid what you're worth nowadays, when you're a brown woman,

W- Yeah, I can relate as a person of color. You know, I've experienced play in racism too from some clients, and I just make the mental note of not to work for them. Can you tell me of an example when that wasn't necessarily true that the publishers and editors you're working with were white, or some other race and still treated you with respect, because what I'm hearing from you is a bit of fear of getting out of this bubble. 

G- Yes. 

W- And reconciling it with the fact that this industry, the publishing and media industry is predominantly white. So tell me about times where that wasn't necessarily true that you found clients that broke this pattern.

G- It definitely happened with a trade magazine that I worked with a few years ago. Unfortunately, they kind of ran out of budget to keep me going, and I didn't have enough good story ideas to keep pitching them. But yeah, they were great. And I think they give me a lot of confidence, because I was doing a lot of work for them. And they appreciate it all of it, and liked having my feedback. So it has happened, it's not a rarity. But it's been rare for me lately, because at the same time, what I've also been trying to do is find full time work outside of the house. And so that's the one thing I mentioned, you know, in my application is that I really need to focus on making this work, because a part of the reason why it stopped working is because my husband wants me to make a certain amount and keep it at that amount, which is almost impossible when you're freelance. You can't say, Okay, I'm guaranteed to make this amount of money this year. And keep doing that for the rest of my life. So that's kind of where I think I can just struggling between maybe I should go back to having a regular job with regular benefits, and you know, more stable pay versus just try to go all in on the freelancing thing. Because I've done it in the past. It hasn't been successful. But I've gotten a lot better over the years. So maybe different this time. If I start pitching folks. Yeah, that's part of where the fear is, is that well, you know, if I keep freelancing, will I ever, you know, crack that 50k that I would love to have? And if I do, would I be able to do it again next year and the next year? That's my big fear is that I don't think I'd be able to do that. And so without that, I wouldn't be able to leave his family's house, which is where I'm living at right now. So that's a lot to kind of deal with. It's a lot of pressure I feel like.

W- Yeah, I'm hearing you... You said something about confidence. And I love that because a lot of freelancing is confidence, the belief that your work is worth more than it is currently being valued, for instance, and if I were coaching you regularly, I would ask Two things. So one thing is we call a confidence log. It's just a fancy term for a spreadsheet where every time you broke out of your comfort zone, or you negotiated something, or did something that was scary in your business, and you came out the other side where the publisher or the client met you at your negotiation, that's a win. Basically, this log proves your anxiety and your imposter brain wrong. And I think it's so important to show yourself, hold it up to yourself as a mirror, right? Of I can do this. 

G- Oh, I like that. 

W- And I think the more and more we exercise that confidence muscle, the easier that breaking out of our shell becomes.

G- Absolutely. And I it's funny, because I do that at the end of the year, I never think about doing it during the year. Uh huh. I think it's important to do in the present.

W- Absolutely, just as they happen, right. One thing I do is if I get nice feedback from an editor, I just throw it immediately into folder in my inbox I was gonna say the other thing is to come up with a list of clients who are going to pay you more. So there are a few databases available online that tell people publicly what different outlets pay, it sounds like you're already doing a lot of discovery calls with new clients, too. So who are the clients who can pay you not just 50 or 60, but double that triple that, right? Because the more higher paid work you take on from non journalistic clients probably, that can help support the journalistic work that you might be hitting at $50 or $60 an hour. And overall, basically, I mean, money is kind of a game. I didn't grow up with this mentality, for what it's worth. But say you want to make 3K or 4K a month, and you are working 100 hours, which is 25 hours a week, if a client pays you more money, but you spend less time on it, that opens up space for other things you can sleep in, you can do research on a story, it really alleviates that pressure. The other piece of homework, I would say is make a spreadsheet of potential clients who can help you meet your income goals, who ideally pay more than who you're working with.

G- That's awesome. Now, where would I find that for non realistic clients to get their rates? What would you suggest I go to?

W- That's a great question. So I would say a few things. One is to ask her network. So your colleagues who may work with non journalism clients, what their experience has been, like. People who are your colleagues, but also friends, and who would be willing to help share these things. I also think it's fair to say that companies or institutions with big names, you can look up their net worth, probably also have a higher budget for writers too because they understand the value of content that is put forth on their web page. And I think a lot of it will have to do with reaching out and doing a discovery call. But I think a lot of those clients are also going to be a lot more amenable if you go to them with rates that you want to be paid. So if somebody wants to explore the opportunity of working with you, you can say my rate is $100 an hour. My rate for this is 150. Oh, you want a blog post? That's 800 words. That's $1,000. So naming your fee for those clients can take your really long way. And hey, if you tell somebody that a blog post is $1,000, you're a third or a quarter of the way to earning your monthly income.

G- Yeah, I don't do that regularly. I probably should be doing that. It's finding those seven, eight figure budget companies that are just throwing, you know, cash around to marketing folks.

W- Yeah, absolutely. So I think building that list for yourself and figuring out what may be worth your time is a great place to start. Again, you're in essence also relaunching your freelance business, in a way. You're looking for new clients to add on, possibly new services, possibly letting go of this QA work too, right?

G- If I get something major, then yes, absolutely. I'd let it go.

W- So the last thing I want to come back to since we're almost at time, is the question that you had about creating more brainspace in a day. Tell me the setup you have with that QA client right now. Are they only paying you based on the hours that you bill? 

G- That is right. 

W- Okay. But they're booking you for a certain amount of time a day?

G- Yes. I have basically an open schedule to where between these hours I can be paid to take tickets. But yeah, they don't pay me until I start working on the tickets specifically. So it's not quite as many hours it looks.

W- What do you think of that business setup? Does that work for you?

G- It kind of works for me. But I think part of what it is is my own mindset. For weeks that I'm not sure if I'll be busy, I really need to just kind of put it aside and say, Don't even think about that client because I'm not getting paid to think about them right now because I don't have any work for them. It's not as great as I would like for it to be and so it's possible if I find another client, I would love to have those hours or have those days, you know, maybe say Monday, Tuesday and not, you know, two to three Friday? That would be fantastic.

W- Yeah. Or I can envision another situation where if they want you to be on the clock for five hours a day, all those five hours are billable, right? Because they are reserving your time. So what if I told you that the setup you have with them right now is unfair? How does that make you feel? 

G- I actually wouldn't disagree. Yeah, I wouldn't disagree now that I think about it. 

W- Okay, how does that make you want to move forward with this client?

G- That's a great question. I don't know. And that that's something I just had a meeting with the head of it, that might be something like I need to address with her, because she'll probably tell me, Oh, wait, if that's what you're doing, then don't think about us, you know, those days, and just come in during days when you want to work. So that might be something I have to tell her that I need to change is that I won't be available until certain days and I should have tickets on those days. And that's it and not have a reserved day, but have nothing going on. I think she would probably be more or open to that.

W- Yeah, I think what I'm trying to say is, is there a way you can work with this client within the parameters that you want to work on the projects that they hire you for, rather than them having more control over you, because you're running a business. And ordinarily with retainer clients, for instance, there is the expectation that the freelancer is on the hook for, say, 20 hours a week. All 20 of those hours are billable. That is how we are figuring our availability and bandwidth into that schedule. So I think that's something worth thinking about. So the last thing I want to talk about is how to actually create more brain space. And I think this goes back to the point that I raised earlier about hours working and income goals. Why don't you tell me: is the 1000 that you're earning every month enough to cover your bills for now?

G- Oh, yeah. I don't really have very many, because, you know, I don't spend as much money on gas, because I don't really go many places. But that obviously, that will change, you know, in the next month.

W- Right. So it sounds like if 3000 or 4000 is your ideal goal, that having at least 1000 coming in reliably is a pretty safe space. How do you feel about that statement?

G- I would agree. And I also would agree that I probably should be spending less time being on call and just, you know, reserve a couple days for these tickets and not try to spread them out over the course of a week.

W- Mm hmm. Totally. So again, if we were to meet regularly, I will send you this as homework, actually. What I would tell a normal coaching client is the amount that you need to live every single month is $1,000. How are you going to make that up? And once you have that 1000, it usually gives peace of mind, right? Because money I think is the premier stressor for a lot of freelancers. But once you locked down that stable, reliable income, you create mind space to have a few more hours to focus on other work. What I'm hearing from our conversation is if you need 1000, and your minimum hourly rate is $50, that's only 20 hours every month, and suddenly, oh my gosh, you have so much more control over your schedule, because you have 100 plus remaining hours to do more creative stuff. So how can we play within that?

G- That's a great idea. Because that's about, you know, what I'm working now is only a few hours a month, but it does feel like more because I have committed those hours for those specific days. It makes a lot of sense.

W- Yeah. Yeah, even a client booking your time takes up brain space, right. And even if you're not actively doing something, but they call you in, that's a task switch. And there is energy required to switch between tasks. And you know, that's why a lot of freelancers talking about batching similar tasks, like sending a bunch of emails or taking a bunch of calls. So that's a strategy to kind of mitigate how much brain switching that we have to do.

G- And I think they'd be fine with that. Because most of the stuff that I work on generally isn't very urgent. They have a few emergency things going on, but not very frequently. So I think I'd be able to condense that into, you know, maybe a couple of days, maybe working a couple more hours, but then have the rest of the week off. Probably nice to work on other stuff.

W- Yeah, absolutely. So we are at time, but I just wanted to recap our conversation. And I think one of your big goals again, if I were coaching and consistently and if we were to meet another month or two out, would be to fill out that confidence log of times that you've proved yourself wrong. And I want you to make a spreadsheet too of clients who will be able to pay those rates, whether that's through your own research or discovery calls or your network and relationships with others in the media industry. The third is to come up with a new business plan too, because it sounds like you might want to get rid of this QA work in lieu of other, more stable, perhaps, work. And in that business plan, I think you'll be able to figure out exactly how much time a client may require every single month, and then how much more time you will have for other creative projects. Because those two things are not mutually exclusive. Usually, we want that stable client to give us the peace of mind so we can do creative things. 

G- That's so true. That's very true. 

W- Well, thank you for your honesty. And I hope this was helpful for you, too.

G- It really was. Certain things give me a different perspective that I wasn't really thinking about. So it was great. Thank you so much.

W- Yeah, I love that. Okay. Well, I will talk to you soon. 

G- All right. Yay.

J-  I really wish that we had more time to take in with these coaching sessions, Wudan. 30 minutes seems so short, like both of us are used to having an hour with folks.

W- Yeah, it is really challenging. I think our guest's story this week is one I hear pretty commonly. Somebody not trusting in their own self worth. But they also want to break out of the status quo that they've set in their business,

J- Right. And it's really hard, I think, to have it both ways, like to have your business in the place you want it to be, and also to feel comfortable. I actually wonder if that's possible. It's never been possible for me. I think when you stretch yourself to improve your business, it is probably always terrifying.

W- It is a lot of mindset work, I think. And you know, I always recommend people the confidence log.

J- Me too. The goal is basically to prove to yourself that you are capable, right? As writers, as journalists, we're really good at doing research. So we want you to research yourself. And you know, you can't prevent yourself from being afraid. But you can provide your brain with evidence that says, I got this, right? I've done this before. It sort of shortens that moment of fear, if you will.

W- Yeah, our brains are pretty mean to us. They tell us stories that are wrong, that don't serve us, that make us really question ourselves. And I think that's why I asked our guest how her preconceptions mesh up with reality. Right?

J- Yeah, it was a great question. You know, recently, I met with someone, I was coaching someone, and they told me that they were lazy. And based on all the data I could see from their career, I was like, You are literally the opposite, you're actually extremely productive, right? But that was an old story. It was one that his brain repeated to him over and over again. And I think it was one from his childhood. And it actually wasn't true. But it was holding him back very much in taking the necessary steps to move forward in his career. So, you know, he thought of himself as lazy. So he would take these tiny actions, that meant he wasn't getting much done sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, right? And he was really, really lost in self criticism about that laziness. So like you said, I find it really helpful to like gather this evidence. Sometimes I even assign people to write themselves a letter as if a trusted friend is writing to you about what they love about you. Like, what would they say? Would they say you're lazy? Probably not. And that exercise is really interesting, because it can be really tough to speak kindly to yourself. But it's a lot easier when you think about someone else talking to you in that way. So all of that is to say this is like extremely hard. And it's also why therapy is important. Because these old stories, which come into play for money and business building, and all of that, they are from our childhood, they're from our past, and digging into those things can actually make a big difference in your ability to move forward, I think. 

W- Yeah, absolutely. I agree. The other homework I assigned to our guest were our business planning worksheets to redefine her rates and services. 

J- Are we assigning these to everyone? The answer is yes. 

W- Yeah, it's honestly the starting point. If you want something new, you're going to have new boundaries. And it's important to know what those are. I also assigned her to make a spreadsheet that tracks ideal clients. And I asked her to work through the confidence worksheet, of course. And I think about this as a trifecta of business focusing, in a way: acknowledging what's holding you back through business planning, reminding yourself that you're very capable via the confidence log, and knowing where you're going with those ideal clients. 

J- Yeah, I love this. It's all about focused energy.

W- Mm hmm. Our Patreon members will get this stuff too. As you know, season three is funded by you, our listeners. If you haven't joined us already on Patreon, we hope you will. You get episodes two weeks early from everyone else plus resources, access to a Slack channel, discounts galore, and more.

J- Yeah, it's great stuff. And I think that is it for this week. But we will be back in two weeks with another guest. 

W- Until then, Jenni. 

J- Bye Wudan. Season three of The Writers' Co-op is made possible by you, our listeners. This season is hosted by me, Jenni Gritters and my co-host, Wudan Yan. And the podcast would not be possible without the help of our producer, Jen Monnier and our editor, Susan Valot.