Clarify Your Career Direction

SEASON 3, EPISODE 2:

Today’s episode — the second of season 3 — features a conversation with a freelancer named Hanna Merzbach. She’s new to the game; she graduated from college last year, and the pandemic threw all of her plans (which included teaching English in Japan) into chaos. She started freelancing as a way to dip her toe into journalism and she’s already found a lot of success with bylines and landing pitches. But she’s also interested in taking a staff job. In this mini-coaching session, Hanna and Jenni talk about how to use freelancing as a springboard into a full-time job, plus how to make connections. Hanna also wants to try her hand at writing about different topics and taking on various styles of journalism, which makes freelancing a good fit for her right now. They also talk about avoiding burnout, trying to up Hanna's rates, and figuring out who your ideal clients are. Sometimes, there are just too many possibilities in the world of freelancing, so it can help to narrow down what your ideal clients look like, and what they need. You can follow Hanna at @HannaMerzbach on Twitter, and @hannamerzz on Instagram. Patreon members also get access to some of the homework Hanna received, including a worksheet for determining your ideal client! And you can grab that business planning workbook (which we mention in the episode) here, too. Our e-courses will still be quite discounted through the end of May. If you’re looking for support on contract negotiation and/ or business planning, we hope you’ll check them out. If you enjoy this podcast, you may also enjoy Write About Now, hosted by Jonathan Small. Write About Now features in-depth interviews with successful writers of all types and stripes—novelists, journalists, screenwriters, ghostwriters, and more. Each week, Jonathan takes a deep dive into how the most successful writers master their craft, offering tips, inspiration, and laughs for both aspiring and professional writers. You can find it wherever you podcast.

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Full Transcript Below:

Wudan Yan- Hello, and welcome to The Writers' Co-op. 

Jenni Gritters- We are a business podcast for freelance writers everywhere

W- We are your co-hosts. I'm Wudan. 

J- And I'm Jenni. 

W- And this is the official start of Season 3's coaching episodes.

J- Yeah, that's right. We're using the season to do what we're basically calling the biz edit. It's like Marie Kondo, but for your freelance business, so we want to know about your business. And then we do a 30-minute coaching session to dig into the challenges that different folks are facing.

W- At the end of each call our guests get homework and a plan for a path forward.

J- Yeah, it's worth saying that we usually coach people for about an hour. So to me, these sessions feel pretty abbreviated. And actually, most people do better with four sessions in a row so that they can work together with us on implementing the plans. It just takes some time to actually make some progress. So these are sort of like coaching teasers, if you will.

W- Yes. And again, you know, we explain what coaching was in our first episode, but want to reiterate that we are not therapists, and we are not lawyers. So these sessions are just focused on the freelancers who are our guests, and sometimes we'll step in and give our perspectives or advice. 

J- I love it. So how is life, Wudan? 

W- It's not terrible. I am striving to create some balance between paying projects and projects that don't pay immediately. And honestly, the slower pace is really nice. What about you, Jenni?

J- That sounds very aligned with our last conversation. Agreed on the slowness. When this episode comes out, I will have just taken a two-week trip driving around the desert southwest in an RV with my husband and my dog and my kid. So I think things are looking pretty good. And by the way, before we dig in too far, I should actually take a moment and tell y'all about another podcast before we get into this coaching episode. So if you like The Writers Co-op, we think you might also like Write About Not. It's hosted by Jonathan Small. And Write About Now features in-depth interviews with successful writers of all different kinds, which is very aligned with this podcast, but it's novelists, journalists, screenwriters, ghostwriters, folks who do all kinds of writing. And each week, Jonathan takes a deep dive into how the most successful writers master their craft, which also makes it a really good accompaniment. As you know, we don't often talk about craft here. So their podcast is all about offered tips, inspiration and laughs for aspiring and professional writers. And I think it would be a very nice pairing with The Writers' Co-op. 

W- That sounds great. Alright, Jenni, let's hop right in. Who did you talk to this week?

J- Yes, this week I met with Hanna Mersbach. She is an Oregon-based freelance journalist. And she covers everything from breaking news to magazine features. She writes very often on state and local politics and also social justice. And her specialties at the moment are housing and homelessness. She's also done some work on education. And because of COVID, Health Equity. Hanna also offers copywriting and fact-checking services. And she is an interesting case, because she just graduated from college during a pandemic. And we talked a lot about how freelancing may or may not be a long game for her. And then also how she might be able to use this very weird time freelancing to explore different types of work to get a sense for what she likes, like she just doesn't really know what she wants yet, which makes total sense.

W- When I graduated from college, I would not have thought to go freelancing. I just followed the traditional path of finding a job as soon as possible because of my socialization and how careers were discussed at my university. I really don't even think I knew that freelancing was a thing.

J- Same, I really never considered it at all. I mean, I ended up choosing between a full time job as a copywriter for Amazon's Canadian kitchen section—I would have been writing about KitchenAid mixers—or the other option was to go to grad school for journalism. So you all know what I chose: journalism. But wow, I mean, even throughout my J school program, I just had no idea that freelance was an option, nor did I really know what I liked or I didn't like, so the years after I graduated I think were all about trial and error in my first few jobs. Hanna and I talk a lot about that, that trial and error aspect plus how to move from a specific niche, like local news, into a place where you're writing to a more national audience. And then we also got into adding stability into the constant hustle schedule. She's getting a little burnt out. And we talked about how to figure out who your ideal clients are. So lots of good stuff. 

W- Yeah, let's give it a listen. 

J- Okay. Hi, Hanna, and welcome to The Writers' Co-op. 

Hanna Merzbach- Thanks for having me.

J- Yeah, this will be fun. So for everybody listening, Hanna and I are both based in Bend, Oregon at the moment. So we've actually met in person, which feels like an anomaly with the pandemic. It's been good. So Hanna, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself. So tell us about your services, your business, what you write about your clients, all that good stuff.

H- Yeah. So I actually graduated from college last May into the pandemic. That's been interesting. So I kind of dove right into mainly freelance journalism work, working for a local news organizations in Bend and Portland. And it actually has been pretty nice with the pandemic that I can be writing for these Portland papers and living in Bend, not paying rent, living with my family. Most of my journalism focuses on social justice issues and state and local politics, with an emphasis on housing and homelessness, education and health equity. I'm trying to branch out more to more copyediting gigs, fact-checking, doing more content writing that kind of thing, having more of those anchor gigs, but that's kind of been slow going, getting that started. So that's kind of a goal for me.

J- That's awesome. I think graduating into a pandemic is really tough. So the fact that you're building all this stuff as you go is really important. Tell us about your current situation, like what kinds of clients you're working with right now. What kinds of stories you're doing. All of that good stuff.

H- Yeah. Right now I'm working for, I guess, a few different publications in Portland and Bend. I have a story I'm working on for High Country News, which was really like my goal publication for a while. So I'm super excited about that. I'm covering these different kinds of housing initiatives around Oregon. Yeah, most of my reporting is very rooted in Oregon, Oregon, politics, Oregon issues. So I'm writing for those. I'm starting to write for some magazines in Bend, still kind of within my subject area, and kind of trying to branch out as well to more University publications, reporting on some of the vaccine equity stuff going on in Oregon as well.

J- Yeah, that's great. Sounds like you have a lot of good Oregon connections. So one of the questions I like to ask people, you know, especially you're at the starting line of your career. So I want to know, where you see yourself, like, if you can imagine, you know, it's a non-pandemic world, and it's a couple of years from now. And you're doing work, what does that look like for you? What type of work do you want to be doing?

H- Well, I guess one thing I'm kind of still unsure about is if I want to stick to freelancing, or get a staff writer job, I mean, I really like the flexibility of freelancing. I like writing about what I want to write about. But I think there's still a lot to learn. And I think I would really benefit from being in a staff and having that community and that support because sometimes I just really feel like I'm kind of on my own, troubleshooting. I mean, it can be really lonely. And I think a lot of that has been the pandemic as well. So I mean, I guess in a couple of years, I definitely I do really like what I report about, I'd like to be a politics reporter, or equity or that kind of thing, education, those kinds of beats, I'd like to either be in a staff job reporting on those things, or if I stick with freelancing still doing that. Another component I should mention is that this whole time has kind of been a limbo time for me, because I've been supposed to leave on a teaching program that's in Japan, and I've just been waiting for borders to open. So if I end up doing that, that could happen this fall. If I end up doing that, I could also see myself staying abroad internationally and getting started doing some freelancing in Japan as well. Maybe sticking to some international stuff. So it's really wide open.

J- Yeah. I mean, it's tough. I think a lot of folks I've been meeting with have the situation of the pandemic has made things very uncertain. And so it can be really tough to make long-term decisions, right? Like, I asked you what you want to do in five years and the answer is sort of: who knows? But I want to dig in I think a little more to this freelancing versus staff job or freelancing versus teaching job thing. Why don't you talk to me a little bit more about where your head is at with this, you know, how did you come into freelancing?

H- Yeah, I came into freelancing... I mean, I'd applied for a staff job, and I didn't get it. But the organization had been like, Oh, we think you're great, let's, let's try you out with freelancing. And they really held my hand through the whole thing, because I had no idea what freelancing was. And I wish I knew earlier. It's something I would have loved to do in college to kind of get my bearings a little bit more. But I started out with them. And I was kind of just on the side, freelancing with them for a little bit. And then I guess I started kicking it into gear, especially this year, I've been really trying to kind of look at it more as a freelance business. But it's been really great to have them as kind of my anchor freelancing client and I feel like they kind of treat me like a staff reporter in that vein.

J- What do you think about when you think about looking for freelance gigs? Are you still keeping an eye out for full-time jobs? What does that process look like for you?

H- I am still keeping an eye out for jobs, I only apply if I think it's like a really good job and it's with an organization that I know I really want to apply to. So I kind of just apply here and there. But I have been on the lookout more for temporary staff gigs, just because there's a chance I might leave for Japan in September—all that. But I have applied for a few others that I thought would be really cool.

J- Yeah, absolutely. You know, when I hear you talk about this, I can tell from what you're saying that you actually would like a staff job. But things are too uncertain to really lean into that fully, but also that makes it hard to lean into freelancing fully. I can hear sort of that you're a little torn with those things. I wonder what would it look like to use freelancing as not the long game, but like the way to get your foot in the door for a lot of this other stuff? So you could get a full-time job if you wanted to in September or October.

H- Yeah, well I think I've kind of been doing that. I mean, I've made connections, especially with like, I know a lot of editors here in Oregon, a lot of the people who would be hiring if I got a job here. I think freelancing has been a really great opportunity to really start getting those clips, and like getting that experience that would get me a staff job later on too. I've gotten a lot more responsibility and I think reporting on way bigger stories that I would even if I did an internship. I think I've had the opportunity to really build that kind of beat for myself and figure out what I like. I mean, I've done some courts and crime reporting. And I figured out I don't want to go anywhere near that. So I think it's been a good opportunity to just figure out what I like, what I don't like. And so when I'm applying for those staff jobs, I know what I want to be applying for more.

J- Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you're doing all the right things when it comes to this, like using this time to get bylines and meet editors. One thing I like, especially for folks in your case, I mean, I think you're in this like experimental phase and there's a lot of advantage to just asking yourself after each gig like, did I like that? Do I want more of that? Or do I not want more of that? It is a really good testing ground. But tell me: the September thing sounds tough, with not knowing where you're going to be then. So tell me how you've been conceptualizing that in your brain, like when you're thinking about freelancing, and then you know you might leave? How have you been sort of sorting that out as you make plans?

H- I think it's been kind of tough looking for these anchor clients. I want to break out more into more copy editing and proofreading, that kind of stuff. And I'm finding a lot of gigs that want like a year commitment, that kind of thing. And so I think that's kind of been a limiting factor sometimes on finding those kinds of gigs. I think also we're more than a year into the pandemic. And I think I have, as many of us have, we've learned to adapt to having this uncertainty. So it used to really stress me out that I didn't know if I was gonna, like, leave the country next month. But now I'm like, yeah, this is just the life I live now. And I think I've kind of set a deadline for myself. I was supposed to leave last September. And if I don't leave this September, I think I'm gonna drop out. I am not gonna wait more than a year for this program.

J- Okay I think that is helpful. Yeah, I was gonna say, I think it does help to have some sort of moment in which there's a little bit of clarity. Between now and then—so like, we're recording this in April and you have until September—are there some smaller goals you want to hit? And, and by that, I mean, like types of stories you want to write or types of places you want to write for, or things like that?

H- Yeah. I mean, I've been trying to kind of break out to more regional/national publications. High Country News was a start. I'm really excited to be writing for them. And I guess I'm kind of just on a lookout for more larger publications I can sell my work to. I'm so used to kind of being this local news reporter, so rooted in that, and I'm trying to figure out how to adapt that and make that attractive and pitch that on more of the national scale, and just find those publications. I feel like I am still kind of looking at a limited set of publications. And I think I really need to open my eyes more with that. I think also one of my goals, I just I feel like I'm working so hard right now just writing a ton of features that are really hard stories to write and not getting paid much for it at all. Whereas I think I could be writing a few of these and getting paid more if I was writing for different publications that paid more. It's just kind of hard with the publications I'm writing for. You know, with local news you can't negotiate that much because they just don't have money.

J- Yeah, absolutely. Let's bump back a little bit to that idea of getting from local news to national publications. So tell me where you get stuck when you're either thinking about where to pitch or sitting down to write a pitch.

H- I think my first problem is just coming up with the pitch in the first place. I think I'm just so used to coming up with these pitches that really cater to this local audience that I haven't really changed my mindset to come up with pitches that would appeal more. I think I get stuck at that point, just coming up with a story idea, just finding more of those niche publications. When I imagine breaking out to like the national scale, I imagine like New York Times, the big ones, but there's so many more digital publications that I feel like I just don't know about. And sometimes I just don't know how to figure out what they are.

J- Yep, totally. Let's talk a little bit about that. Because one of the things that I think is incredibly challenging about freelance journalism is that there's this sort of weird sky's the limit thing, right? Where there's like, endless publications. And if you're reading calls for a pitches, or, you know, you're in the binders groups or a place like that you're going to be seeing constant asks for stories, right? And so it can be kind of overwhelming, I think, especially when you have a certain focus in your mind right now. Which you do, which is sort of Oregon residents. So talk to me a little bit about topics. I know you said politics and social justice. But tell me a little more about what you're interested in, in those fields.

H- I mean, I've really kind of developed a lot of work in the housing and homelessness arena. I think that's kind of my main subject area right now, mostly because the publication I first started working for that's also their subject area. Good thing that I really do like writing about it. I don't know if it's kind of going to be the end all be all for me. But that's been really great. I mean, I know there's a lot of publications on the national scale that kind of focus on those issues as well. In terms of state and local politics, I've been focusing a lot on the state legislature, potential bills that are being passed. I think this year has been cool because I've got to report about a lot of different things. And more, as you said, just figure out what I like that I think I'm still figuring out what I like in those topic areas.

J- Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think this is common. And also, I know your early career, but even mid-career, we change our minds. Part of why we're journalists and writers, I think, is that we're really curious. And lots of things spark our interest. So one of the things I think I want you to sort of take as a homework assignment is to identify just a couple of topics, like two or three. So I really like the housing and homelessness beat for you because I think what happens with that is you say, Okay, I cover housing and homelessness, let me go spend an hour online looking at which places are covering housing and homelessness, right? So not just local, but national. And then you have this list of like five places that you can go pitch, because you know they take the kinds of stories that you have a specialization in. Which isn't to say that you will only write about housing and homelessness for the rest of your career. But that is probably a really good way into some of these bigger publications. Housing and homelessness, I think, is a good one. Are there any other topics that come to mind kind of right now, as we're talking that you think you might want to lean into for like a month? Like as just an experiment for a month?

H- I think kind of the health equity be, which I think what drew me to it is reporting on the vaccine. But I think that could also incorporate a lot of other health equity issues as well.

J- Yeah. Okay. So I think that is a great first step. Because that's going to give you like five or six national publications that you could think about pitching. If you're looking at, like, Who's covering these things really? Well, health equity is a great one, because there are all sorts of health publications that I think would be great for you to sort of edge into, right, like places that are doing health news, places that are doing health policy stuff. So I love this. So I think that's one of the assignments I want to give you is to make a shortlist of publications. So instead of the whole wide world being the possibility of where to pitch, you have like a few specific places, and reading what they're writing is going to help you sort of shift your focus from local to more national. And I think the benefit is also that you have a lot of deep knowledge in how these issues are working on the ground. And so that's going to help you, I think, sort of think broader. But it's mostly just thinking about who's reading the story. If I'm talking to my friend who lives here in Bend, I'm gonna explain something very differently about a Bend issue to them than I would someone who's in another part of the country. Oftentimes, it's the same conversation, just a different frame. So I think I want to put that on your homework list. Let's talk a little bit about you know, you talked about work mix and wanting to get paid more. And I mean, you and I have talked a little bit separately about burnout, right, and like, running really hard with these feature stories. So tell me how you feel about the current pace of your work. And it sounds like the pay is not where you want it to be. So tell me about that too.

H- Well, frankly I moved back home after college with the pandemic and just wanted to take little time to not pay rent. And I think that I'm not making enough money to move out and have to pay rent again. So I know that in order to kind of make next moves in my life, I need to get paid more, I need to diversify all of that. And I think part of it is that I've just been so busy writing all of these features. And I really care about all these features. But I've just been so busy with that, that I don't feel like I have time to look for other anchor gigs and actually diversify because I just, I'm so swamped writing like this, and I go between good and bad days. Just this week, one day I was like, Okay I need to stop freelancing. This is killing me. And the next day I got these cool stories and was like, This is the best, I love this. It's just so up and down. And I feel like I need it to equalize a little bit more.

J- This is so real. I appreciate you being honest. Because I totally relate to that. Some weeks, it's like, This is the greatest thing I've ever done and some weeks. It's just like, Oh, my God, I'm so exhausted. So tell me about the financial bit of it. How much would you need to be making each month in order to move out— like a general ballpark number?

H-  Let's say. I would say at least a couple thousand a month, maybe $3000 to $5000 a month. Yeah, something around there.

J- I like that. So a lot of times when I talk to people about finances, we talked about having like, sort of a window of what you make. So the survival number is $3000. But the ideal number is $5000. So each month, you'd want to be falling within that sort of window. How much are you making now, related to that? Like, how far away from that are you?

H- This year looking at it, I think I've made more of about an average of I'd say like $2000 a month, maybe lower than that in some months.

J- Yeah, I mean, you're not too far off, then. Right? I think that's the good news. One thing I would love for you to do is to start tracking a little bit, whether you have a spreadsheet or something like that, I can share my spreadsheet for tracking income, but just so you do know what that number is and how it's fluctuating I think can be super useful. It's oftentimes unpleasant, but it helps to stare it in the face. So then you know how much more you need to make. But I think that does tell us that we kind of want to double your income. But it sounds like you don't have a ton of time right now. So tell me more about that.

H- I feel like I'm working as many hours as I can, I probably work around 35 hours a week, 30/35, depending on the week, if I want to go skiing or not. But I would love to be spending like half my time doing some editing, something like that. And then the other half doing this more creative work. Because I just feel like, as we've talked about, everything I'm doing is just like putting out putting out and doing all this creative work and everything I am doing is just so much pressure on me and stress that if I get this wrong, it's gonna be all my fault. And I mean, I do really love editing and just kind of having those more like analytical tasks, whether it's editing or mean, I have some experience with like audio editing, that kind of stuff. And just that I know that that's going to be there. Because I feel that huge stress to come up with good ideas. And if I don't come up with good ideas, I'm just not gonna have work.

J- Yep, absolutely. I mean, I have been there. I mean, I think so many people I coach feel the same way. It's like, I'm gonna screw this up, and everybody's gonna know, right? Because when you're freelancing, it's literally just you. It's terrifying, I think. And it actually doesn't stop being terrifying. But I think there are ways to stabilize this. So the first question I have for you is, I think we need to get you a day, every week to do some of this more strategic stuff. And it might mean making $500 less this month, next month, but then it means making $2,000 more the following months. So what would it take to get you one day a week when you're not having to do reporting work, where you can sit down, and sort of do the networking, do the outreach, do the I'm going to tell everybody I do audio editing, you know, all of that stuff— what would it take to get you that time.

H- I think I just have to really plan ahead and make sure not to take on too much and not to schedule interviews and everything that day. Yeah, I think I would just really have to set it on my schedule and really block it out as This is a day I can't work.

J- Yeah. So flipping that perspective, this is a day when I'm business planning. Right? So you're still working This happens a lot of times I tell people to go take a business retreat, and they're like, Okay, I'm gonna take three days off. And it's like, No, no, you're still working. It's actually part of running your business, having this time. I know it's unpaid hours, which feels scary. So what would that look like? Is that blocking it on your calendar? You know, on your Google Calendar, like pragmatically, what does that look like for you?

H- I think my Google Calendar and I have like three calendars in my office that that could have that.

J- Okay. Okay. So wall calendars, right. And Google calendars. What day each week—and I mean, it could even be a half-day each week, to start—what feels doable to you right now?

H- Probably Friday would be the easiest day, just because the beginning of the week can be so hectic sometimes. Or if I was going to do a half-day maybe, I think I sometimes struggle with half days just with things encroaching in. Even when I take a half-day to like, go to the mountain, I'm on the ski lift and responding to emails. I'm definitely bad at turning off.

J- Yes. Okay. So we're gonna make Friday your business planning days, I think, and we're gonna make it the whole day. And I think for you, because you have this sort of interesting time limit, what I want you to be thinking about is: what do you want to do this summer? You know, what do you want to focus on this summer? During that time, let's talk about what you're going to do. Because I think sometimes then you're like, I've blocked out Friday, and then you sit down, and you're like "uhhhh". And then you answer emails because that's sort of the automatic reaction. So, you know, we talked about wanting to find you some more steady clients that are outside of journalism, I think, right? What does it look like to get started on that for you? Like, what things do you think you need to do to get that ball rolling?

H- I have a few clients that are kind of in the mix right now doing some content, writing and editing gigs, they've just been really slow to get going. So I definitely want to work on getting those going, if possible.

J- Is that following up with them via email? What does that look like?

H- Yeah, I think they've also just had some stuff going on at their end. But it might just be a little bit more of a waiting game. But I mean, I would like to get some work, not just rely on those and try and get some more clients in the mix. I mean, when I've been looking for this kind of work so far, I think I've been looking on the binders groups, I've been putting calls out on social media, talking to people in my network, seeing what comes up on slack channels, that kind of thing.

J- Yeah, I think you're doing a great job with this. I mean, we talked about a month ago, and you already have some new clients on your roster, which is amazing. I do think for these, like, bigger clients, these sort of brands or places that are gonna pay better, it actually takes a few months of, I don't want to say harassment, but like bothering and checking in, usually, for it to map out into an assignment. But one thing I wonder is that, I wonder what it would look like for you to define, like your ideal clients, versus finding them in these emails. Do you have a sense for who those people are? Or who those clients are?

H- I guess that's one problem I've been having is I just haven't done that much of this work. I've been having a hard time kind of narrowing that scope. So it's been easier for me to see these calls for editors, that kind of things, and just fit myself into that box, rather than kind of starting from scratch. I mean, when I start to think about who those clients would be, I kind of think about Oh, like, Who do I know? But they're kind of more like smaller organizations that probably wouldn't pay for that kind of stuff. I guess that's something I struggle with, with where to start.

J- Yep, absolutely. So I think that's part of what I want you to do this week on Friday, and I'm going to send you a little worksheet, I think, to get thinking about these ideal clients. Because what I want to say is like, I want to give you permission to think big. I think because you just graduated, the beauty of freelancing is that the sky is the limit. And you don't necessarily have to put blockers around, you know, who you can contact and what type of work you can do, because you do already have a good portfolio being built. I like to think of it as the way you apply to colleges, right? A lot of people do safety schools, mid-tier schools, and then reach the goals. And so thinking about that with clients. You definitely have some really good safety clients who are in your network, you know, who are Oregon based or local, but then we want probably to push into that middle tier and then send a few outreach emails or talk to some people who are in that higher tier. The way I think it might be useful to orient this for you is just to ask the question: what do you want to learn? Or what do you want to try? Because it doesn't have to be permanent. And because it's hard for you to know what you want because you're just starting, that may be an easier question. Like, what do you want to learn about? 

H- Is this hypothetical, or are you asking me right now? 

J- I mean, I guess I'm asking. Do you have any quick answers to that? You may need to sit down and do the homework. But yeah, do you have any things you've been wanting to learn about types of companies you've been wanting to work with? Stories you've been wanting to write, like types of stories?

H- I don't know. I guess for the types of stories: I do want to branch out to not just be Oregon-based, and just figure out how to be reporting on other things in other places and not be such a place-based reporter. I mean, I really just want to, I think what I want to learn is what kinds of editing I like what kinds of organizations. I think I'd want to work for kind of more mission-driven organizations and make sure I'm working for brands that I actually believe in. When I think of the organizations that I want to write for, sometimes it's the organizations that I report on. So I feel like I kind of end up with that conflict of interest there.

J- Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is the hardest part about navigating at the beginning, I think, too, especially if you have a wide spread of interest. So one thing I want you to do is keep an eye out also, for organizations where when you come across them, you think like, Oooh, they're exciting. And just make a note, because even if it's not that specific organization you might want to work with, we can sort of build a profile of what your ideal client is. Does that makes sense? Like, okay, they focus on this specific issue that I'm really into. And maybe it's not this organization, but I'm gonna find another one that focuses on that, right? So kind of like following that gut sense. Because for you, I don't think it needs to be super strategic yet. I think it really can be like, Oh, this is the one next thing that I think is interesting, right? Like, this is the one next thing, and that's totally fine. I mean, I think for most of us, that's how the beginning of our career is. It's like half the things you hate and half of the things you love. But I really do want to put a specific focus on trying to get you some clients that are paid a little better, because I think that'll help with slowing down. So what I'm going to do is part of the homework I will give you too is the business planning workbook that we have on The Writers' Co-op website, because it's going to walk you through some of those basic questions about rates and how much you need to make. And that'll sort of allow us to back math a little bit so we can say like, okay, we want your clients to pay you this much per hour. So if we had a follow up session, I would have you do the whole workbook. And then we would come back, I think next time around and kind of talk about really strategic ways to find mission-driven clients who work with, you know, climate change issues and pay $75 an hour. Like, Okay, let's go find those. Right? So getting specific with some of those asks, I think, is going to help with making those Fridays really, really focused and making your time focused. But again, like for you, it's not going to be a long term goal thing. The question is: what do I want to explore the summer? 

H- Yeah, that sounds great. 

J- Yeah. So we're coming up on time. But is there anything else you want to ask me about before we, before we hop off?

H- I mean, I guess once I make that list of, say, mission-driven organizations I'd like to work for I guess, I just get stuck and kind of what the next steps are in actually working for them.

J- Yes, totally. I think there are a few sort of practical things. The first is, you're very good at pitching now, right? You're like experienced with pitching journalism stories. In some ways, it's the same as that. You have to find the quote-unquote editor at these organizations, which is typically the marketing manager or the communications person, Part of what I will do is find folks like that, and then send cold emails, which we could talk about at a different time, like what that might look like. But that is usually less effective than telling all the people in your network that you're looking for something like this, and letting them help you. You know, so in The Writers' Co-op Slack channel saying like, Hey, I'm looking for, you know, a gig writing newsletters with a mission-driven organization that focuses on this. If you hear anything, let me know. So I think it's sort of twofold, like a small amount of energy can go into cold pitching, but a larger bit of energy is sort of actually telling the people who you already know what you want. And it comes back in the next few months. It sometimes takes a little bit, but I do think that it's just hard to be cold pitching yourself 100% of the time. 

H- Yeah, it's exhausting. 

J- Yeah, the question is also: Who do you know, that might work in an organization like that? So even for me, when I started this, I realized, Oh, we have some family friends. I don't know anybody who works in journalism, who is a family friend, but I do know people who work for nonprofits and city planning, and you know, all sorts of other things. And maybe they would need a writer too. So sort of thinking more broadly about who your cheer squad would be and who your network is. It doesn't just have to be journalism people. Everybody needs content. Or most, most companies need content. So thinking a little more broadly. Sometimes I have people make cheerleader lists, like who's in your crew, right? Like, who's gonna support you? And that is an easier place to start. It's also less scary than just firing emails into the abyss. So we should head out. But I think I've given you all sorts of tips and things. Obviously, this is a shortened coaching session. But I am going to send you some of this homework anyway for you to do. So one of the things will be that business planning sheet. And then I think your big work is actually just to sort of define over the summer, what things you want to learn and what types of people you want to work for. With this sort of specific eye of saving Fridays for yourself, like a day to belong to yourself and make some plans. It's hard to change what we're doing if we don't have any time to think about what to replace it with.

H- That all sounds great. Thank you so much. 

J- Yeah, of course. Thank you for your time, Hanna. And we will talk to you soon, okay?

H- That sounds great. 

J- Okay, bye. 

H-  Bye.

W- Hanna's sincerity and hustle really come through in that conversation, I think She's already doing really well.

J- I know, I can't imagine graduating into a journalism career during a pandemic. And yet, she already has some really great bylines in the mix. She's trying lots of things. I actually met up with her once here in Bend before we recorded this episode. And even between the three weeks or so between that conversation in the episode, it's just clear to me that she's been working really, really hard. She's pitching a lot too.

W- Yeah, I like that the two of you talked about moving from a niche and taking a local story to a national publication in that chat.

J- Yeah, it's a big mindset jump, I think. You're really good at this, I think. So how do you think about pitching to a local pub versus a national pub? Like do you consider different audiences? How do you sort of shift your mindset when it comes to the pitch?

W- That's interesting, because I don't write for local outlets. When I come across a local story, I automatically try and spin it into a national story. So the questions I ask are: What's happening in whatever town? How is that representative of a larger issue? Is it unique in some way? I try to get those questions answered before pitching it. And I've always really had luck with this approach. Just zooming out and telling people why they should care about something that seems really hyperlocal.

J- Yeah, that's great advice. That question "Why should I care?" I think is key there. You know, to me, it's about asking, like, how do I make x issue applicable to y audience, right? Like, if you're at a bar telling a story to your friends, you're going to tell it differently than you would on a podcast for 1000s of listeners or to your mom. So it's about knowing who you're writing to, I think.

W- Yeah, exactly. 

J- And then yeah, I mean, you and I love math. So I think that math conversation that I had with Hanna is just, I have that conversation with pretty much every person that coach. It's important, to figure out how much you want to make. You need that math in order to know what your goals are. And then you need to track those numbers to see where you're at right now so you can figure out what that gap is. And a lot of us avoid that reality check because we don't want to know what the number looks like. It's painful. And we won't like what we find, maybe. So if we find something we don't like, maybe we'll have to make big changes or swap out clients. It can be a tough conversation to have, but a really important one.

W- Yeah, everyone who listens probably knows that I love math. We need math to run our businesses, and I literally math, everything out. Now might be a good time to say that I was on a math team in high school.

J- That's amazing. And also completely unsurprising. I gave Hanna a bunch of homework in our conversation, and Patreon members are going to get access to some of those worksheets, too. Especially the one about defining your ideal client. As a freelancer, I just think it feels like there are entirely too many options of places to pitch and people to work with. It can be really overwhelming, and narrowing that field even just slightly can make your efforts a lot easier.

W- Yeah, it's similar to how we advise against the spray and pray method with pitching. We also believe that taking a targeted approach to finding anchor clients is also important.

J- Yep. So that worksheet is going to help you think through specifically brand clients you might want to work with because folks are always asking about this. I like to actually sort of build a little Client Profile: Who are they? What do they need? Who are their users? What do they help people with? Do they already have a content stream, and you might not reach out to that exact client, but then you also kind of know who's in that sweet spot for you. And you can use your network and your skills, maybe even some cold pitching to find those people. It's just easier to narrow down that field.

W- Yeah. And to reiterate what you said, No need to cold pitch or cold email the entire world. You can ask people in your network, whether that's family, friends, college friends, former colleagues, and they can help you find that type of gig you're seeking.

J- Yep, absolutely. It's like focused energy all the way. Because I really think cold emails suck most of the time. They occasionally work but it's a lot of effort out and sometimes not so much gained back.

W- Yeah, a lot of flinging into the void. I also really enjoy the advice about getting some time in her schedule to make strategic plans. Do you do that?

J- Yes, I do. I've been trying to be more specific about it. I actually recently went on an overnight retreat. And for all you parents out there, just imagine one night by yourself in a hotel alone. It was so glorious. But it was also really helpful, I think, for taking me out of the hustle, I-just-need-to-get-stuff-done mindset, and then it put me into a more introspective space. I actually sat down and worked on some of the homework that you gave me when we coached each other, Wudan, and thought through a new business model and got introspective about what I want. So, you know, I did some organizational stuff, applied some structure to my coaching program. All of these things are not possible unless you pause. So whether it's a day a month, a day a week, a couple hours every week, I think it's kind of up to you. But yeah, do you do this Wudan? Do you take days where you aren't on the hook for your clients?

W- Kind of. So one thing I realized recently is that one day a week, I would love a day with no calls. And the other day, that's also empty, I want to be out of the office, getting on the trails, exploring a place that's new to me. So I basically need two days off a week from engaging with the world, is what I learned.

J_ Yeah, actually, that's kind of the setup I'm looking at for this summer, when I come back from my trip, is having at least two days a week where I am not on calls or coaching anyone, because I need long chunks of space without being interrupted. I just think it's tough to focus or get perspective when you're like being pulled away from your focus by clients or emails all the time. On that note, I think we should head out. But I hope that we have all learned something from what Hanna is dealing with. We are going to include her information, actually, in the show notes. We won't do this with everybody, but she said she would be happy to be in touch with listeners if you feel like you have a similar story or you're dealing with similar challenges. And as always, we're probably talking about freelancing on Twitter too. So you can find her and us there.

W- By the way, we have e-courses that can help you get a start on all this business planning stuff, just like Hanna. The business basics course walks you through planning services, rates and so much more. And Patreon members get a pretty nice discount.

J- Well, I think that's it. We will head out. I will see you around, Wudan. 

W- All right. Bye, Jenni.

J- Season 3 of The Writers' Co-op is made possible by you our listeners. This season is hosted by me, Jenni Gritters and my co-host, Wudan Yan. And the podcast would not be possible without the help of our producer, Jen Monnier and our editor, Susan Valot.