Jacy Topps
SEASON 2, EPISODE 8:
If you've ever wondered what it looks like to add ghostwriting to your mix of freelance writing services, this episode is for you! Jacy Topps joins Jenni to talk about the behind-the-scenes of ghostwriting: How to find those gigs, how much they pay, what you need to watch out for, and why writing under someone else's byline can be gratifying.
Jacy is an award-nominated journalist, essayist and ghostwriter. You can find her bylines in various publications including, InStyle, Cosmopolitan, Glamour, Oprah Magazine, Wine Enthusiast Magazine, Slate, and Business Insider. She has built her career as a journalist covering everything from wine and travel to race and mental health, LGBTQ culture and relationships. You can follow her on Twitter and Instagram. This week, TWC members will get access to Jacy’s contract tip sheet, which details the things to watch for on a ghostwriting contract! We’re also including our original contracts tip sheet, which includes some sample legalese you can use to negotiate terms with your clients. If you're not a member, head to the TWC Store for individual purchase options. If you like TWC, we think you'll also dig the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, run by Brendan O’Meara. He gets into craft questions and really digs the nitty gritty writing process stuff. We’ve been talking a lot lately about how writing skills are key to running a freelance business, and Brendan’s podcast has a lot to offer in terms of skill building. Listen wherever you podcast!
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Full Transcript Below:
J- Hi everyone. And welcome back to The Writers' Co-op.
W- We are your co-hosts. I'm Wudan Yan.
J- And I'm Jenni Gritters. Wudan, happy new year.
W- Happy new year. I mean, we are recording this pre-2021 in December, but I'm hoping that by the time you all listen to the episode, it's a better place. Just a little bit, maybe in 2021.
J- Yeah. Fingers freaking cross. I'm ready for a better year. By the time that you all listen to this, both Wudan and I will have taken what, like two or three weeks off for vacation for the holidays. So Wudan, tell me, do you have any plans for 2021, like goals for your business or cool projects you want to work on?
W- You know, 2021 still feels like the year that we still have to be desk-bound as the vaccine hopefully gets distributed. So a lot of what I'm hoping to do this year is actually strategizing for 2022, which is so crazy to think like more than a year ahead. Identifying big projects. And I'm trying to lean more into developing my audio storytelling skills. And I think I'd love to write a little bit less about COVID. What about you, Jenni?
J- Those are all good goals. It is wild to think that far ahead. I think I am actually, for the first time in my life maybe, not thinking far ahead. So you may all know, I've talked about this a little bit, that I wrote a piece for the New York Times last year. It was sort of a big deal for me to get that publication on my list. And the piece was about motherhood and the maternal brain, basically like your brain changes a lot when you're pregnant and when you're a new parent. It happens to dads too, but very much so for moms or the birthing parent. So for that piece, I talked to a bunch of researchers and I actually didn't get to write about everything that I learned about. So in the past few months, I have been thinking about what to do with all of that. I'm also very passionate about writing about this since I am a new mom at the moment. So I actually have been talking to all these researchers again, I've been doing informational interviews. I just like wanted to know how things were going and what they thought was interesting. And it turns out that there was even more interesting stuff going on that I learned about before. And they were all really excited to talk with me. So now I have like, you know, 20 different ideas. And my plan for 2021 is to pitch a lot of those stories, especially about where maternal issues in neuroscience intersect. Like everyone's really busy paying attention to babies and development, but we just don't know a lot about moms and mental health. So anyway, basically I'm leaning into a new beat and I'm feeling actually quite excited about it, which is new for me. The past year, I have not been feeling excited about writing reported features. So that is my 2021 direction. In addition to like keeping retainer clients and working less than I did in the past.
W- I love that. I love picking up on stories where you've left off. On that note, we have a final recommendation for you all. If you're thinking of diving into some more writing work like Jenni is. We have been really loving the Creative Nonfiction Podcast. It's hosted by Brendan O'Meara. Brendan gets into the craft and really digs into the nitty gritty process of writing. And we've been talking a lot lately about how writing skills are key to running a freelance business. And his podcast has a lot to offer in terms of skill building, I think.
J- Yeah. Agreed. It's on my weekly rotation, lots of inspiring stuff. And you can listen to the Creative Nonfiction Podcast wherever you're listening to this podcast.
W- Sweet, Jenni. Okay. Who do we have on the show this week?
J- This week I spoke with Jacy Topps. Jacy is an award-winning journalist, essayist, and she's also a ghost writer, which is why we wanted to bring her on the show. You can find her by-lines in various publications like InStyle, Cosmo, Glamour, Oprah Magazine, Wine Enthusiast, Slate, Business Insider. She's built her career, actually writing a lot about wine and travel in the lens of race and mental health, as well as LGBTQ culture and relationships.
W- Ghost writing! I'm really excited to hear about this.
J- Yeah, Jacy and I mostly focused on ghost writing during our chat because I think it feels like one of those sort of secretive freelancing topics that's been hard to learn how to tackle in a pragmatic way.
W- Yeah, totally. It took us a second to find the right person to talk to us about this because it's a complicated world and you can't actually say what projects you're working on most of the time.
J- Yeah. I think y'all are really gonna dig my convo with Jacy because she gets really transparent about earnings and contract negotiations, all the things we love. So with that, here is my conversation with Jacy.
J- Jacy, welcome to The Writers' Co-op.
Jacy Topps- Thank you, Jenni. Thank you for having me.
J- It's super fun to have you here. To start, why don't you tell us where you are now and what you're up to in this odd pandemic version of our lives.
JT- I'm in New York City. So needless to say, we were hit extremely hard during the pandemic in the beginning. Publications started folding, publications basically started cutting their freelance budget. So work pretty much fell off for me completely. So for the first couple of months during the pandemic, I just started cooking and hunkering down like everybody else was. Things have picked up a little bit for writing in the last few months. So I'm getting back into writing and pitching and ghost writing as well. So that's kind of where I've been during this pandemic. It's been crazy.
J- Yeah. Sounds pretty common. I think I've been talking to folks and like, it seems like things are picking back up a little bit in the new year, but slowly. But it's happening, hopefully. Why don't you tell us what your business looks like right now? So what specific services you're offering? I heard you mentioned ghost writing. What else is on the docket that you offer to your clients?
JT- So ghost writing, copywriting, I'm also a freelance journalist, meaning I do a lot of research and I pitch myself and pieces to other publications, like organically, not ghost writing. My writing right now really focuses on wine and food and culinary and spirits. That's kind of in high demand in the last year. So I've had a lot of experience writing that over the years. So I've kind of been focusing on that, but yeah, definitely a few clients, a few ghostwriting clients I've picked up as well.
J- That sounds interesting. So let's talk about ghost writing first. Wudan and I have been wanting to address this on the podcast and trying to find the right person who can sort of walk us through what it looks like, what the finances of it are. I should say. I also did some ghost writing and still do. And I know for me, it's paid really well, but it's been sort of complicated. And so can you define ghost writing for us and tell us how you started doing this sort of work mixed in with your journalism?
JT- Sure. So a ghostwriter is just someone who writes copy, like articles and editorials speeches, books, et cetera, but that isn't given credit for that work. So in other words, the credit goes to the client or the person who hires you or someone else, even though you've written the words. That's pretty much what it is. You're paid for your written work. And you're also paid to keep it quiet that you actually wrote that. My first time ghost writing was a little bit funny because I didn't really know that that's what I was signing up for. I answered a Twitter post. The post was like "we're looking for a black woman writer." And, you know, as a freelancer, just kind of always on the hunt for work. I submitted my resume and my writing samples and they got back to me immediately and they were like, "Oh, you know, your writing is excellent. Have you've ever written like the voice of someone else?" And it was kind of vague like that. And I was like, Oh yeah, sure. I've done some copywriting. At first I think a lot of people's mindset when you think of a ghost writer, it automatically goes to books. So I wasn't even thinking about ghost writing something else. I wasn't even thinking about that. And after a couple of back and forths, they were like, "Oh yeah, we were looking through your writing. It's excellent. You can do this." The organization was a nonprofit and they wanted me to write an op-ed and they were going to pitch it out to publications as if the president of the nonprofit was doing it. And I was like, "Oh, okay, sure." So they told me how much they would pay me. And I'm like, well, this is great. And I just thought, okay, sure. I can do this. And I signed the contract and we went on from there and that was the first time I got a ghostwriting assignment.
J- It's funny to hear you say that because that's how I ended up working on something like this was sort of accidentally, right? Like I didn't realize that they were looking for someone to write in someone else's voice and that's what happened. It was, you know, both good and bad. Why don't you tell me what that looks like now for you? You know, are you still doing op-eds? Is it books? Is it a variety of projects? What is that ghostwriting? What form does it take for you these days?
JT- It's multiple things. I have yet to ghostwrite a book, but I'm very much open to that. If anybody's out here like listening and want to hire me for that. But it's mostly editorials. I've ghost written some essays for celebrities. I've done a lot of celebrity work as well. Some brands: like I've worked with publications and companies on branding. And that also coincides with celebrities as well. Other advertising/copywriting work. That's kind of where I'm at right now, as far as ghostwriting.
J- Interesting. Where do you find this sort of work? Whether it's with celebrities or brands, are you advertising that you do it? Are there certain job boards that you're on? Where do those things exist?
JT- Well, after my first ghost writing project, I did put it on my website. I think it's really important that writers do that because wherever, you know, a potential client can find you, I think you want that said on your website. Also word of mouth, you know, like my second writing ghost writing position was through an editor that I had published a piece through a publication and this editor recommended me to their brand writer and they asked me if I would write to help out with some branding campaign with celebrities. So word of mouth is a big one. I am a part of, a lot of writing groups, online writing groups. I think it's really important to network and to find other writers, just to basically say, Hey, I'm doing this now. And any recommendations?
J- Yeah. That makes sense.
JT- Well, I think social media is a big one as well. Like social media, I've gotten so much work from social media: a lot of job postings, a lot of, you know, do you know anyone who's doing this? So I think that's really a big one as well.
J- Yeah. That's interesting. How do you decide to take on a ghost writing project? You know, I think a lot of us are sorting through sort of a variety of priorities, right? Money, passion, stability, especially in journalism. Tell me how you decide, say you're scrolling and you see something on Facebook and you think, Oh, that might be a good opportunity. What is it about it that's appealing to you, if it's a ghost writing position.
JT- I think the money. It's going to be different for everyone. But for me, since I started doing it, I realized the money is, is great. I mean, you're talking, you know, two, three, four times the amount of money that you make as just a freelancer, you know, publishing an op-ed in a publication or an essay in a major publication. So for me, there are times, especially this year, for instance, where money's low, assignments are low. So if someone approaches me with project and it's a good amount of money I'm definitely. Taking it on. What's also important to me is like the actual project while I will sign on, you know, if the main purpose is money for me, but I also have to be passionate about it or who I'm writing in the voice of. Like, I would never take a project for someone or a company that I don't believe in.
J- Yeah. I feel that, I think there's sort of the two pronged approach there. Right? But there's also that kind of issue of how much money is it worth to work on something that you don't love? I think I talked to a lot of people about that, right? Like, is it $200 an hour? Is it $400 an hour? And we each are going to have our own different equation on that. On that note though, let's talk about money. You know, we love to talk about money on this podcast. So will you tell me a little bit about how much you're making, maybe like the breakdown between the ghost writing work and the journalism work? I know you said it's often paid, you know, three to four times as much, but what does that look like on sort of a weekly or monthly basis for you?
JT- Well, this year of course has been an anomaly.
J- Totally.
JT- My income has decreased dramatically, like millions of Americans. But so this year I only, I kind of been averaging total income about $30,000 this year, which is, it's a good thing that my wife is also still working during the pandemic. Because I don't know how I would have been able to survive. Of that 30,000 only about 40% of that was ghostwriting.
J- Okay. So you're about half and half. Is that typical?
JT- That's not typical. So last year I brought in about 65,000, 60% of it was ghost writing as opposed to me, you know, pitching and getting assigned articles
J- Tell me about that mix of journalism and ghost writing and how they sort of come into play together with conflicts of interest or maybe even your bandwidth, like when you're switching from one project to another writing in someone else's voice and then your own, what does that look like for you? That split between the two?
JT- It's kind of a good thing for me because, you know, when I took on this, my very first ghost writing project, it was writing an op-ed right. And I've written many op-eds and I was so nervous and so intimidated and imposter syndrome basically just came on. And as I started getting into the actual, I had to like cipher through all of these reports to kind of, you know, write this op-ed. And I was, as I was doing it, I was like, Oh, this is kind of what I do anyway. Like this is what I do as a journalist. I go through research and reports and kind of create my own opinion about this. So it's helped me a lot. As far as journalism, I've done a lot of interviews and, you know, reporting. And I do some ghost writing for celebrities. A lot of the work I do with them is me interviewing them, trying to get a background on what I'm supposed to be writing to kind of like get a feel for who they are. So it definitely kind of goes hand in hand for me, that's been a really good thing for me that a lot of my work I'm able to like a lot of the skills that I've basically use during journalism, I can use actually ghost writing because at the end of the day, being a great ghost writer is about being a great writer in general. So I think that you have to have that foundation first.
J- Yeah. That makes sense. I have heard that you negotiate your contracts when you're ghost writing or that this is something that at least folks do to talk about when and how they could maybe say that they participated in the project. Can you explain that process to me? It feels like kind of a gray area, right? Like if you can claim the work as your own.
JT- Yeah. It's different for different contracts, but I think that most of the time, you really won't be able to claim the work as your own. Sometimes if it's a book, I know ghost writers who are given credit as like an editor. If it was print work as well, like let's say that particular article's published in print and in the masthead does talk about editing. You could possibly get that credit if you would like. I don't get credit at all for the work basically, but what I do try to get, and I try to ask them in negotiations, I talk about testimonials on my website. It's really important, I think, just to ask that. I mean, there's nothing wrong with asking, I think. And it is a negotiation. It really does say something to have a testimony from a previous client to add to your website.
J- I was thinking that I actually tell clients that often even just for editing gigs. It's really hard to see sort of what piece of the pie you've contributed to. So having those testimonials helps. Do you have those on your website and what do you ask for when you're asking folks for testimonials?
JT- I'm kind of updating my website. I've been putting that off for a long time. I don't have testimonies on my website. What I've been doing and I think kind of works for me is asking if I'm able to use you as a reference. Because it's a job reference, right? And the nonprofit that I worked with, I made sure that it's like, Hey, if I need a job reference, you know, who's the contact person? And the job reference is vague enough where you still keep that privacy when it's like, Oh yes, we worked with Jacy and she's a great writer and she did some editing and she did this and that's pretty much all it is. Potential clients know about the secrecy and the privacy issues. So as long as you have that, that's golden as well. And I kind of use that over testimonials.
J- Yeah. That totally makes sense that they would also be aware of the sort of dynamics of privacy. So one of my first jobs after I graduated from journalism school was working on a project where I was told I would be the editor and I ended up actually writing huge chunks of a book project, which is now like a bestselling book. And I look at it sometimes and think like, Oh my God, I wrote half of that. I wish I could tell people about this. And the whole process was really messy because I think it wasn't a clearly delineated role. There was sort of a lack of understanding about how I would be participating. So I tend to sort of try to iron out the roles a little more now if I'm working on a project like that. But can you tell me, are there red flags that you look for when you're talking to folks about a new or potential ghost writing project that you might be interested in diving into?
JT- The only red flag that I would have is if my contract didn't explicitly say what my role is. When I am given a contract, I think it's really important to read it thoroughly, to go in and just kind of say, okay, well, number one, how much of the research am I doing? You know, a lot of ghost writing projects, a lot of the research is done for you. But there are times where you do a lot of the research. Well, I want to know how much of the research am I doing? And if I do more, is my rate going to increase? That's really important. I think the editing process is really important. Like, how many rounds of edits am I doing? Or, who am I doing these edits with? And so I think that for me, a red flag is if you won't negotiate in the contract, if you won't explicitly tell me like line by line by line, what is going on this project, then I can't move forward with this project.
J- Yeah. Totally makes sense. It's actually like pretty similar to what we talk about even with journalism or client work. Like scope creep and all these things still apply to me. They just feel like they apply even more somehow in a ghost writing scenario. That brings me to a question I've been thinking about since I knew you and I were going to be chatting about power dynamics that are sometimes present in ghostwriting. You are writing someone else's words and they are claiming ownership of them in a certain way. Can you talk to me a little bit about that? Especially as a woman of color in this space who might be working with like a white man who is working at the top of his company, what does that look like for you and how do you negotiate that?
JT- Yeah, it is a really challenging power dynamic. The privacy nature of the business makes it really easy for writers who are already marginalized to become even further marginalized. And that's kind of scary. I know for me, I haven't had any issues as far as the people who own the content changing content that I wouldn't approve of. I have no idea how I would handle that. That kind of scares me. But there are times where I think about am I getting paid enough? You know, like would a white writer get paid more than I would, or would a male writer? And I just generally go to other ghost writers and other writers for mentorship. And that's all I can do right now. I think that's why it's really, really important to network and get to know other writers and get really involved in these groups because that's kind of where you're going to find out the information that you need to find out. Like, am I getting paid enough? Am I doing too much work, work that I'm not getting paid for? That type of thing. Or should I be getting credit in this particular area? Or should I be asking for more? So I think that's all I can do right now. I've never been in the position where I've had to seek something else.
J- Yeah. It makes sense to me, I think, you know, it's that relationship building with others, right? That's super key here.
JT- Yeah. And especially other marginalized writers. I mean, I'm definitely a part of a lot of groups on social media as a queer writer, as a woman, as a black woman. It's really, really important to kind of really foster those friendships as mentors because they can really help you navigate through some really tough times. You know, I've only been writing totally for like seven/eight years now, but I just know to be professional and just go from there.
J- Yup, absolutely. I think a lot of what you're talking about with contracts too in protecting yourself applies here. Journalism can sometimes feel secretive. I think ghost writing feels especially sort of siloed and secret, right. Whenever people ask me about it, they're like, Oh, where where would you find this work? And what would it look like? So it makes sense to me that you need touch points with other folks who've done it. I was going to ask you about mentorship. So why don't you tell me a little bit about that— how you as a freelancer have built skills and found people to help you out along the way, since it can be pretty isolating to work and write alone.
JT- Yeah. So social media has helped me pretty much through everything the last five years of my career, just, you know, I follow a lot of journalists on Twitter and I know a lot of people that really don't like social media, don't try to engage with it as much. But I think it's really important to utilize tools, especially free ones. Like social media is free right now. And I think it's really important to utilize that and, and you can curate that to what you need it to be. And I follow all these journalists and pay attention to their threads. And when they're talking about like advocating for yourself and here's the pay rate for this, it's really important. And I've been doing that. I'm a part of some private groups, online writing groups on Facebook and other social media groups. I think that's really important too, because we're all in this together and they can help you find the resources that you need. I think this podcast and other podcasts like it are great resources. I think it's really important to find resources to help you navigate through this because it can be a little isolating and daunting at times.
J- Absolutely. You know, future planning is weird right now because of the pandemic, but do you imagine that you'll continue to do this work that sort of split between ghost writing and journalism for the next few years?
JT- Oh, definitaly. I'm having a lot of fun ghost writing. It's kind of fun. It's a little like, Oh, I wrote that piece, but I can't tell you I did that. So it's fun for me. And like the money is really good. And freelancing kind of gives you the space to write about many other types of subjects and things like that. And of course this pandemic has shown everyone that we need to keep our options open. So definitely. I definitely see myself freelancing and even ghostwriting for awhile.
J- Yeah, ghostwriting is a really good anchor. I think we talked to our coaching clients a lot about having this sort of anchor ground floor gig that sort of stabilizes your finances. So you can stack those feature writing or journalism assignments on top of it. So the way your business is built, it's exactly that. Right. So love to hear it. It's a good thing. One other question for you about ghost writing, which I would imagine listeners are going to ask, because they keep asking me about this with brand work is conflicts of interest. Like navigating, you know, if you were going to write a story about something journalistically and there's a similar thing you've written about in a ghostwriting context, do you face that or navigate that or are the topics pretty disparate and separate that you are working on in those two buckets of services that you offer?
JT- So far from my experience, the topics have been pretty separate. A lot of the things that I've written about ghost writing kind of covers a subjects. For instance, politics or race. But a lot of things that I've ghost written, I would never write about me for me personally. Like I've never pitched it to an editor. So it's pretty separate for me.
J- Yeah. I think there's something to not having the byline on it too that feels, for me at least, pretty divided from my journalism work. Right? Like it's copywriting in my mind sort of when I'm doing that kind of work. Okay. Last question for you is about a tip that you would give. Tell me about maybe the best business decision that you've made or something you would tell two/three years ago you, as you were building up your freelance business.
JT- Oh, that's easy. Negotiate your pay up. As a black woman, I'm already marginalized in the industry. And so it's very scary when I hear people like, Oh, you know, you should go negotiate your rate because I'm always afraid that that this assignment's going to be taken from me if I just kind of come in and say, "Hey, what about $75 more?" But I tried it and it's worked so far. Once you've gained the experience and I got several great by-lines, I'm like, Hey, I'm going to move on to start asking for more money. So I think asking for more money. I think as long as you do it professionally, you have the chops to back it up. You have the experience, you know, that's great. I think always negotiate for more money. And you can add that up at the end of the year. And it's like, wow, I started negotiating for money and that $75 at a hundred dollars here and there, like that added up. And then you really saw the difference for the bottom line. That was great.
J- Yeah, totally. I talked to people about this as sort of like a staircase, like you're not going to jump from $50 an hour to a hundred dollars an hour, but maybe every assignment you get $5 more an hour and it builds and it builds and it builds. Right?
JT- Absolutely.
J- I love that. Are you getting paid hourly or by the project or something else when you're doing these ghost writing projects, when you think about negotiating there?
JT- I've been paid by the project.
J- Okay. We love project rates. I think Wudan did a whole soap box moment on our last episode about the benefit of project rates. When you're proposing a project rate to a client, how do you think about that? Are you estimating how long it will take? What does that look like in your brain?
JT- Yeah. I'm estimating how long it would take, the amount of research that would take, like everything. I mean, I do look at it hourly as well, but the actual rate that I go into normally as a project rate. I think in my experience my clients have just been more open to hear project rate, like how much do I have to pay you? And what does this entail?
J- Yeah. I think it's almost easier for them from a planning perspective to know.
JT- Exactly. Yeah. It's like, I don't understand this hourly thing.
J- Yeah. Do you estimate, like in your head, how long it's going to take and then tack on a little extra, like when you're sort of, when you're, you know, a new client comes to you and, and you're going to propose a project rate to them, what's the math in your head?
JT- Yes. I definitely propose a little extra and that extra just comes from everything. It can be taxes. It could be like, Oh, I've never done this before, or I'm not, I don't have much experience in this particular aspect. Or I personally feel the research is going to be more extensive. So yes, I do tack on a little bit more just in case.
J- Okay. Last question. I know I said the other one was the last one, but now I'm just curious.
JT- Ha! That's ok.
J- I want to know, if you're doing an op ed, like a ghost written op ed, what the ballpark project rate for that would be, just so I think folks can understand the financial win of this, right? Just an estimate from you. What does that look like?
JT- Oh, okay. So my very first project was an op-ed and it was $1,500. You know, an op-ed is only like 600 to 800 words. And that included like two rounds of edits. And my very first one, this is right out the box, it landed in the Washington Post.
J- That's awesome. Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. I love it. Yeah. I think that just sort of helps people understand, right?
JT- I mean, I think it does because first of all, the Washington Post is my dream publication. I want to byline there. So this is a little bit bittersweet for me. I've pitched them numerous times and I know that they only offer $150/$200 just as a journalist. So the fact that I would get $1500 for someone else to have the byline, it's kind of amazing.
J- Yep. I think so too. And sort of proves that your writing is good enough to be in a place like that.
JT- Exactly. Right. That's how I look at it this whole time. Like those are my words, not my byline.
J- Totally. It is. I think bittersweet is exactly the right word for it. Like I look at that book that I ghostwrote that big chunk of, and I think Oh my God, I'm sad that no one knows I did that. But also, look at what I did and look how much people are appreciating this and learning from it. So yeah, there's definitely sort of a confidence booster aspect to this that I think is important too. It's sort of like a safe practice ground. That's going to pay you more, right? Yeah. It's like proof of your skills. Okay. Well on that note, I really am going to make that the final question. But Jacy, thank you. This has been really helpful. And we will include in the show notes, links to Jacy's website, her work, and her social media handles in case you want to reach out and ask her other questions. So thank you for being here, Jacy.
JT- Thank you so much, Jenni. This was amazing.
W- There's so much interesting stuff in here. I love that. Jacy is so pro project rates. We've talked about that on the show and that she pushes for both contract and payment negotiation with her ghost writing clients.
J- Yeah. It's the best when people come on the pod and then yell about things that we yell about, like getting paid more. It's definitely our vibe. I agree though. Jacy has some really excellent advice to offer, especially when it comes to contract negotiation. And on that note, we actually asked her to put together a tip sheet on contract terms to watch for specifically when you're ghost writing. So our members are going to get access to that document this week.
W- I always love a contract tip sheet.
J- Truly. I also think Jacy's perspective on relationship building as a way to sort of hold people in power accountable was a really on-point idea.
W- Yeah. And in so many ways, that's what we're hoping to do with this podcast as well. Like let's just be transparent because withholding information is one of the ways that the people who are in power stay in power. It's how people who already earn a lot of money, keep earning that money. And don't distribute that wealth. If we know what the going rates are, we can all push for them. And if we know that a publisher has a bad contract, we can all push back on these terms.
J- Yeah. I think this applies in all sectors, but especially for ghost writing, which just feels so secretive. Transparency about pay and having other freelancers' backs is sort of like revolutionary in a way. And that mindset feels really important to me. I also really dug what Jacy said about ghost writing helping her build confidence. Like it's proof that you can do the work with your own byline too. I really feel like that has happened for me as well when I'm working on copywriting or ghost writing projects,
W- I really enjoyed that bit. It's a cool, unexpected addition to the benefits of ghost writing, I think. And on that note, we should probably head out into the world that is 2021.
J- 2021! We have two more episodes for you this season after this one, plus our secret episode for subscribers only, which is always a favorite.
W- We can't wait for you to listen to that one.
J- Hang in there, Wudan and I will see you soon.
W- Alright. Bye, Jenni.
Season two of The Writers' Co-op is made possible by a grant from the International Women's Media Foundation. Susan Valot is our editor and Jen Monnier handles research, admin, and more as our producer. The Writers' Co-op is hosted by me, Wudan Yan and Jenni Gritters.
