Chasing Corporate Clients with Matt Villano (October 2020)

SEASON 6, EPISODE 2:

This episode is a re-run from October 2020.

If you want to talk about running a 6-figure freelance writing business, Matt Villano is the person to call. He has been a full-time freelancer for 25 years and during that time he’s written for publications such as The New York Times, CNN, The Wall Street Journal, and many others. He also specializes in copywriting, editing, and branding for a host of companies and nonprofits. Despite the pandemic, 2020 has been his most lucrative year yet. In this episode, Matt and Jenni talk about parenting and freelancing during a pandemic (Matt has three daughters, and Jenni has a 9-month-old). Matt explains how he reaches out to brands and why he thinks of his business as a factory with product lines. He walks us through his strategies for finding work (which mostly involve talking to people), and he explains the importance of having a designated work space. You can find Matt on Twitter @mattvillano. His website is whalehead.com. This week, Writers' Co-op Patreon members will receive notes about Matt's business model, a template that you can use if you want to reach out to brands to find work, and a year-over-year breakdown of how much Matt makes doing journalism, brand work, and more.

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Full Transcript Below:

W- Hey everyone. Welcome to The Writers’ Co-op.

J- As I think you all know by now, we are making a business podcast for freelance writers everywhere.

W- We are your co-hosts. I’m Wudan Yan.

J- And I’m Jenni Gritters.

This season on The Writers' Co-op we are doing a bunch of interviews with successful freelancers. They're talking to us about how they make it work and getting real about how much they make and how they manage their businesses.

W- We are pretty excited about this last episode, I talked to Maya Kosoff. We talked about content writing, how to use Twitter as a networking tool and more.

J- And today we are sharing my interview with veteran freelance writer Matt Villano. Matt and I talked a lot about parenting and freelancing, which is a whole big thing that I'm now very interested in now that I have a child. And especially now that we're in a pandemic. So I was kind of in the midst of a childcare crisis when Matt and I talked. So it was really helpful to get his 2 cents on the whole thing.

W- Oh no, what was going on?

J- Well, I think I mentioned this in our first episode, but silly me. I thought that becoming a parent would be something that I could do alongside work and not have a ton of issues. Turns out it is so much more complicated than that. You know, I'm a really good multi-tasker. So I thought I had my schedule all figured out. I was like, okay, freelancing is going to give me flexibility. And then my husband is a nurse, so he only works three days a week. And then between the two of us, we decided we could probably cover most childcare for our now nine month old. We hired a nanny for just a few half days every week.

W- Oof. Did that work?

J- Ha no. I mean, kind of, especially now that my kid is mobile, it's a whole different thing, but I guess what I didn't take into account was that kids require a lot of bandwidth and then managing a freelance business also requires a lot of bandwidth, especially when it comes to making strategic decisions and shouldering the stress of rejection and ever-changing projects. So the combined effort of both of those bandwidth stressors with, you know, casual pandemic smoke, all the things that have happened here, it meant less time to run my business than I'd ever had before. And you know, so I was busier. I had fewer hours. I wasn't making as much, it was burnout. I was making less, I had more to do. I was never alone. My concentration was shot. It was just not a good recipe for my mental health.

W- Yeah, none of that sounds ideal in any capacity.

J- No. So, you know, Matt and I get into this a little bit. But I guess I just want to say to all of you who are freelancing and parenting like major solidarity, we're going to send our kid to daycare next month. And I think that's going to help a lot. Like I'm going to be alone in my house, what a concept. But I have a lot of respect now for people who have kids at home and COVID is going on and they're freelancing and being a parent and being a homeschool teacher, like there's just not enough time in the day. And it is truly superhuman effort.

W- I am really excited to hear Matt's perspective on this because he never pulls any punches. But before we get to that, we have a recommendation for you all. If you love The Writers' Co-op we think you're going to love a podcast called emerging form. It's a show about the creative process. Poet Rosemerry Trommer and science writer Christie Aschwanden explore things like how envy can be a force for good in your creative life, what makes collaborations thrive or flop, how hula hoops might help you finish your book, how to handle rejection and all the ways to say no to projects that don't really serve you, like we've talked about before here. They've even done an episode on existential despair. It's practical. It's playful. It's enlightening.

J- Since we don't get to talk about craft here, emerging form is a great way to dive into craft and creativity. It's basically two friends, just like us having fun, getting real, talking to creative people about the frustrations and pleasures of the creative life. They have had journalists, songwriters, artists, even a circus performer on there. So we think you should definitely check it out.

W- You can find then at emergingform.substack.com and subscribe on Apple podcasts or wherever else you get your podcasts.

J- Okay, on that note, we are going to jump back to my interview with Matt. Full disclosure, he has been a really big supporter of this podcast since day one. And we also think he's a great follow on Twitter. So we're really excited that he came on to talk about how he makes his own business work. Matt has been doing this for a long time. He has been a full-time freelancer for twenty-five years. And during that time he's written for publications like the New York Times, CNN, the Wall Street Journal, and many, many other places. He also has specialized in copywriting, editing, and branding for a host of companies and non-profits. He has three daughters and he lives in Northern California. So here is my chat with Matt Villano.

Hey, Matt. And welcome to The Writers' Co-op.

M- Hey Jenni, thanks for having me.

J- It's fun to have you here. We talk a lot on the internet, so it's great to be actually recording the call. So tell me, where are you right now and how are you?

M- I am sitting in my home office, which is in the back corner of my garage in Healdsburg, California. We're about a week out from what was a pretty significant wildfire threat. We were under evacuation warning for a couple of days. So I'm really glad that we didn't have to leave, but we're actually still in the process of unpacking all the stuff we packed up. So it has not been the smoothest sailing this week, but I'm of course thankful that everything's still here.

J- Yeah. 2020 just continues to hand us gifts. I don't know if we can call them gifts, but what a year, especially for those of you in California.

M- Definitely. Yeah. It's one thing to go through this as a grownup on your own, but I've got three small kids. And so obviously that makes the situation completely different. So there's never a dull moment around here.

J- Yeah. Not at all. You know, I have lots of questions for you about your freelance business, but why don't you tell us a little bit about what business looks like right now? What is your mix of projects? Who are you working with? What's your schedule? All of that.

M- Sure, sure. I guess I should start by saying I'm a classically trained journalist. I have a BSJ in journalism and at the time that I went to journalism school, I graduated in '97, we had three options. It was newspaper, radio or TV. So the landscape that I sort of learned the business in was quite different. And as a result, there's still, and I think there'll always will be a real sort of journalism bent to my mix right now. I've got about 50% corporate work and I would say maybe 45% journalism work and then 5% side gig. I've created sort of a character that I do appearances in and that's actually become a decent side business for me. So that sort of makes up my a hundred percent right there.

J- That's fascinating. I want to hear more about that side hustle in a little bit, but why don't you take us back to the beginning of freelance Matt? And tell me about how you got started and how you ended up doing this on your own versus a staff job or something else.

M- Yeah, sure. So when I was in undergrad, I went to Northwestern University, I did a couple of newspaper internships as part of the curriculum. And I knew pretty early on that I did not want a staff job in a newspaper. I just, I didn't like the hours. I'm much more of an independent worker than I think the ideal candidate for that type of gig. So my senior year of college, while everyone was, was sort of clamoring to get staff jobs, I knew that I just wanted to do something different. I didn't quite know what. I had heard about freelancing, but really just wanted a break. So I went to work on a boat in Massachusetts and I had saved up a bunch of money in college, working random jobs. But when I ran out of money, I called a friend of mine who was working as an editor at a trade publication. And I'll never forget the conversation. I said "Hey, I need some money. And I know that there's this thing called freelancing. Do you have any opportunities?" And she laughed at me and she said "That's generally not how this works, but it just so happens that I have a story that a writer bailed on. I need it turned around in three days. Could you do it?" And without even thinking, I said, "Absolutely, great. That sounds amazing. Thank you so much." She said, "Well, do you want to know what it's about?" And I said, "Yeah, it doesn't really matter. I mean, I'll figure it out, but sure. What's what is it about?" And the story was about succession planning in the information technology industry, which was quite a learning curve on three days notice. And then as we were getting off the phone, she said, "Hey, I probably should tell you what it pays," which I never thought to ask. And again, keep in mind, I was about 21 at the time. And I said, "Great, whatever it pays, I'm sure it's fine. But you know, yeah, sure. What does it pay?" And she said, "Well, I'm really sorry, but we can only give you a dollar 50 a word." And I said, "Oh, that's great. So how many words is it? 600 words, 700 words?" She goes, "No, it's a 2000 word story." And so I quickly did the math and, and for me, that was at the time, you know, three or four months of life. And needless to say, after that assignment, I was hooked.

J- Yeah. What a first assignment. I was fully expecting you to say that she was going to be like it's for exposure only. So that's pretty incredible a first gig. What happened after that? How did you start seeking out clients and turning this into something that was sustainable for you?

M- Because that paid so well, I was able to keep them as my lone client for, I think honestly, six to eight months of that year. And then gradually, it occurred to me that I could and should expand my client base. So I just started pitching cold pitching editors and ended up really carving a niche for myself in those early days as a technology trade writer. I was working for, at the peak, 12 different trade publications, just stringing tech stories. And again, this was back before the first dot com bubble burst. So at the time there was a ton of work. People were paying insane rates, you know, sometimes $2 a word for, you know, 400 word stories or 2000 word stories. And it was great until I got tired of writing that technology and then ended up moving across the country to sort of reinvent myself as more of a general interest. Right.

J- About how long have you been doing this? Tell us that first.

M- Yeah. So it's been 25 years. The first time I freelanced a story was in 1995. I didn't know that it was called freelancing at the time, but I got $300 for a section front feature that was 1600 words in the Boston globe. And it was a story about this crazy invention that essentially was a website on which you could go to see where a whale with a tracking device was traveling in the Atlantic ocean.

J- That’s awesome. That’s a very New England story, I love it.

M- Yes, yes. But the fact that, you know, the internet was essentially the news peg back then always makes me chuckle.

J- Yeah. How have things changed since then in terms of your income, are you making a lot more now than you used to? And you know, those $2 a word rates are awesome. Are you still getting paid $2 a word for a lot of your projects or how does that mix look these days?

M- Not the journalism projects, although every now and again, I will score a client that's paying that much on the journalism side, but everything about my mix is much more balanced now. So I've been pulling in six figures going on seven straight years now, and I credit the corporate work that I've been able to pull in and really just diversifying my journalism base as well as sort of the reason for that. No complaints, but most of the per-word journalism stuff, I'm doing sort of falls within the 50 cent to a dollar 25 range.

J- Yeah. That makes sense. I think that tracks for me too. I know people are going to be curious about this corporate work side of things. So why don't we lean into that a little bit, because you know, for me too, a lot of my projects that are lucrative are not journalism projects. So talk to me about how you A) find those corporate projects and B) maybe give us an example of what the work looks like.

M- Sure, sure. Really, I've never been one to sort of follow traditional routes. So I'm not a big newsletter listserve type of guy. Generally speaking, if I want to write for somebody, whether it's a publication or a corporation I'll just cold pitch, I'll just cold call. And so most of the corporate work that I've got now has been a result of that just directly reaching out to, or networking with someone in the comms department. Sometimes it takes one email. Sometimes it takes 10. I'm a big informational interview guy back in the days before the coronavirus pandemic, I would do anywhere from two to four informational interviews with potential clients a week, just meeting for coffee, asking "Hey, what sort of writing opportunities might there be? What sort of writing do you feel you're missing? And how can I get involved over there? And a lot of times it's just networking. It's just relationship cultivation. But you know, when those people are ready to pull the trigger on hiring someone to help, because I've been a nuisance, if you want to call it that, I'd like to think that I'm top of mind and I've gotten a ton of work that way.

J- Yeah, you're speaking my language. I mean, this is how I find work too. I pride myself in being kind of pesky or annoying to folks. And so they remember me. Tell me how you find the people that you're going to reach out to. This is a question I get all the time. If you want to work for X brand, how do you figure out who you're going to reach out to? And what methods do you use? Do you email them? Do you call them, do you LinkedIn? How do you go about that?

M- Yeah, I am an underutilized of LinkedIn. Every year it's at the top of my things-to-do list for the year and every year, it just sort of sits there at the top and gets glossed over. So I'm not a big LinkedIn person. It's really a mix of literal cold emailing or calling where, you know, if there's sort of a general inbox, I'll just blast it. And strategically sort of working the networks that I've cultivated or looking at a website to see maybe who's the head of comms, looking at the bottom of a press release, building a relationship with maybe an associate or an assistant, and then trying to get in that way. Really the same way that traditional journalism freelancers might pitch a masthead, look for an assistant and associate editor and then sort of work up from there. In my opinion and experience, it's all about finding allies and building relationships with those allies. It's something I really pride myself on it's something I've always prided myself on. So I think it's a mix of luck and really just cultivating those relationships.

J- Yeah, this is fascinating to me because I think people think this is a wild way to work, but it's actually, to me, the best way to find gigs is to just talk to a bunch of people. But I know sometimes the payoff can be delayed. You know, you might not hear back from them for six months or a year. Do you find that that's the case and how do you sort of convince yourself that the time spent is worthwhile?

M- Yeah, so I have a great story as a way to answer this question, Jenni. So back when I left New York after 9/11 and moved to Seattle, and at the time I had been pestering Jamba Juice, the smoothie company, to let me write for them. They had a newsletter product that was in store that I thought was really lame, but I actually really enjoyed their physical products, their smoothies and their bowls. And so I had been blitzing the email address of the editor of this newsletter for, I would say, two years. Moved to Seattle, forgot about the fact that I had been pestering them, and within two weeks of moving into my new apartment, I get this email from someone at Jamba Juice, corporate. And the email essentially says, "Hey, we've gotten all your emails. Sorry, it's taken us so long. Are you still interested in contributing to the newsletter and helping us out?

J- Oh my god, two years later.

M- Oh my God. Two years later, Two years later, yeah. And I had given up, I mean, and that ended up resulting in a relationship, not only with them, but they used a third party company to do their newsletter. And I ended up working for that third party company for another six years or so and going on to edit newsletters for companies like Anheuser-Busch and MaidPro and a bunch of other really big corporations. So again, I think that was a mix of luck and diligence and persistence, but also then obviously when it came time to step up to the plate, you know, getting the right bat and taking good cuts and making the most of the opportunity.

J- Yeah. What do these emails say when you're reaching out to these folks? Are you saying "Let me work with you," are you saying "I'm going to fix your stuff?" What tact do you take when you're reaching out?

M- You know, they're pretty short and sweet. I usually somewhere toward the top make clear that I am reaching out because it's a brand that I respect and I really try not to work for or with brands that I don't respect. Because I think that's really hard to justify. So in the case of Jamba, if we're going to sort of stick with that example, I just loved the product and I was kind of a nerd about it. And so every time I did correspond with them, even though it felt like screaming into the abyss, it was, "Hey, you know, I just had this great smoothie and I think these products are so amazing. And this is part of my health routine. And by the way, I really liked the content you're putting out there. And I'd love to be a part of the team." And I think language is so important as you know, because it's what we do for a living. But when you're dealing with corporate clients, this notion that you recognize it's a team and that you want to be a player on the team is so important because the last thing corporate clients want is for you to come in and think that you have all the answers and that they need to follow your lead. It's exactly the opposite. And quite frankly, I think this is a lot of the reason why freelance writers who spend a lot of time in traditional journalism have trouble transitioning into the corporate world is because it really is a different skill, it's a different audience and it's a different mindset. And so showing potential corporate clients from the very beginning that you've got that mindset goes a long way.

J- Yeah. That's fascinating because I do think it's a different kind of outreach for me as well when I'm talking to them. What kinds of projects are you doing for brands? You mentioned newsletters. Are there other types of writing work that you'll do for them?

M- Yeah, currently it's all over the lot. Um, everything from thought leadership documents, I'm working on a 30-pager now, to blogs and again, newsletters, social media type stuff. I'm ghost writing a lot of articles for corporations. Again, it doesn't have my byline, but between you and me and anyone listening, I'm not a big byline guy. I mean, yeah, I want people to know that I'm good at what I do, but for me, it's not about me. It's about the story. And so I've got no problems signing up for a ghost gig, especially if the work is interesting. And again, the company is doing something that I respect and admire.

J- Yeah. That makes sense. I'm also in a similar boat of not being, I don't care so much about the bylines, although I do want the work to be creatively interesting. That brings us to a great question, which is how do you choose which gigs to say yes to? It sounds like you're pretty busy. So I'd imagine the "no" is as important as the "yes." So how do you make those decisions about which projects to take on or prioritize?

M- Yeah, I mean, to be completely frank, if you had asked me this question in January of 2020, my answer would have been a lot different than it is now. Unfortunately, because we find ourselves in a pandemic, the answer almost always is yes for me these days, just because I've got a family to support and I'm dealing with a lot of anxieties. I think everybody is about work and availability of work. But I have a cost benefit analysis that I run. I look at the number of hours that I'm available to work. I compare that to the number of hours I'd like to work. And then I'd take a look at my schedule and estimate how much time realistically I'm able to spend. And obviously then how much money I'm going to need per hour to spend it. And that ebbs and flows depending on what type of contracts I've got in that moment. It ebbs and flows depending on what sort of expenses I have coming up and what my nut is going to look like for that quarter. But you know, it is a process and you know, I'd like to say that 80% of the time I make the right choice. I mean, you know, I think all freelancers can relate. There's always, you know, those gigs that you would say yes to that you wish you had said no to. And those gigs that you said no to that you wish you had said yes to. So generally speaking, if I run that analysis, it usually works out the right way.

J- How do you get a sense for what's coming up? You know, I know each freelancer kind of has their own method of tracking how much they're making and what projects are on their docket. What is the method to your madness when you're busy?

M- The method to my madness is the same Microsoft Word document. It's not even a spreadsheet, Jenni. This is how much of a Tyrannosaurus Rex I am. It's the same document that I've been using for 23 years. It's pretty crazy. It's always open on my desktop and I'm constantly sort of comparing it to a physical calendar that sits here on my wall, in my office and my Google calendar. It's not color coded. It's really sort of kind of ghetto and it does the job. And a lot of times when I share that with people, I get these looks, these horrified looks like, you actually run your business off of this thing? But it works. And this is one of the reasons why I'm intrigued by the idea of an assistant, but I'm also terrified because I feel like if I were to introduce an assistant into that mix, the assistant probably would call me a fossil and then blow it up and make it better. But that process would be super painful for me. And I'm just not ready to let go yet.

J- Yeah, Matt, I'm facing this this week because I'm hiring someone, as you know. I'm hiring an assistant and I am now being forced to sort of make my processes more, I don't know, coherent, so someone else can jump into them. And it's a little bit torturous. I think it's going to be good in the long run, but it's a little bit torture.

M- Yeah. But I mean, it's, it's a fascinating question, right? It's kind of like braces, right? You know it's going to be good for your mouth, but that process of getting the teeth pulled and then having to wear the metal or do the Invisalign, it's painful. And so I'm with you. I recognize that I need to sort of join the 21st century here, but I feel like I can't slow down enough to allow for those changes to occur. And this is a week where I feel like I barely even have time to brush my teeth. So the thought of completely blowing up my process, just doesn't even doesn't even register.

J- Yeah. You're catching me at an interesting time with this because I'm slowing things down a little bit to try to fix my workflow, largely prompted by having a more mobile baby at home. So I would love to hear from you. I don't know a lot of people who are parents who are parents who are freelancing. A lot of the folks I know stopped freelancing when they had children. So I would love to hear about what happened when you had kids and if it changed the way you work schedule-wise or even mentally, in terms of money or priorities.

M- Yeah. It's a great question. I honestly have thought for years about writing a book on the subject. Again, the problem is I haven't been able to slow down enough to even think of a proposal. It changed everything, you know. From a content perspective, we could start there, I had never wrote about parenting until I became a parent. When I had my first daughter back in 2009, I launched a blog. Didn't put any ads on it. Literally it was a loss leader for me to put out there in terms of the time crunch and the money. But after about a year of having that out there and sharing my work, I can't tell you what a wonderful advertisement it was for what became my parenting product line. By product line, I mean the work of the content that I created about parenting. By the time my second daughter was born in 2011, I was working for Parenting Magazine and Parents Magazine and I had a couple of recurring gigs blogging as a dad. So, you know, just from a content perspective alone, it really changed the playing field. And I leaned into it in a big way. In terms of logistics, it really changed everything. My wife and I sort of pride ourselves on being equals. So we really do share an equal amount of the childcare burden here at home. And during the pandemic, that's meant we alternate weeks. We switch at 1:30 every day. So this week I get to work until 1:30 and then I take over with the kids and make dinner. Next week we flip flop. She gets to work until 1:30 and then she takes over the kids and makes dinner. But as a result, I'm working late. I mean, I am up until at least 2:00 AM, if not later, six nights a week. And that really sucks. And I am probably 15 pounds heavier than I'd like to be. And I'm always more tired than I want to be, but it's a sacrifice that I'm willing to make, to continue doing what I love and be a present father who, you know, is owning 50% of all of the responsibilities in the house. And so this is a subject that I find usually ends with a lot of real talk. But, you know, it's one that if people are freelancing and they're thinking about starting a family, it's a real conversation that you need to have with your partner, because if you're not willing to make sacrifices and, you know, sort of bend every aspect of your life, you're not going to be able to pull it off.

J- Someone said to me the other day, you know, you're used to making compromises and then you have a child and realize that it's sacrifices after that. It's a totally different metric of, there's just not enough time in the day for all of the things. So you're going to have to give up sleep or working out or your business or your work. So honestly the real talk, I think, is necessary. There's no way to sugar coat the fact that it's a whole different dynamic, I think, at least for me.

M- Yeah. And it trickles down into earnings as well. You know, we have three kids now and the leap from two kids to three kids financially was insane. And quite frankly, it was difficult for me to even figure it out on the balance sheet. But now, just to sort of cover my part of the nut, I've got to pull in 7K a month and that's gross, but still, that alone requires ass-busting. And you know, thankfully I'm working at such a clip that I'm pulling in more than that, which is great. But again, having children obviously increases your nut, but it also decreases your availability, which really does present some problems unless you're willing to sacrifice.

J- It seems like a complicated, maybe impossible, math problem. I've been working it out on my whiteboard over and over the past few months. My number is similar, 6-7K. And it's a big, big number. This is a good lead into talking a little bit about finances because you know we love to talk about money on here. And the fact that you're bringing in six figures with reduced workload is pretty impressive. Tell me about kind of mentally, how you think about the money with all this. You know, some people are really focused on the passion project. Some want creative work, some want to make their mark. Some people are focused on the money. So for you, where does money fall into your business planning?

M- It's at the core because I've got to pull my weight around here from a family perspective. For me, it starts with recurring work, recurring clients. For years, I sort of approached my life $500 at a time, story by story. And again, then when I became a parent, all of a sudden I realized, you know, this can work, but it's going to drive me insane. And so around the time that my second child-- it was about 2012/2013, my second child wasq two or so, I realized I needed to change things up. And it was at that point that I really started trying to talk some of my corporate clients into recurring gigs. And right now I would say recurring gigs alone, depending on the month and sort of the quarter, I'm pulling in between five and seven just in recurring work. And it's recurring work that's fulfilling. I don't take jobs that aren't fulfilling on some level. But then beyond that, that's where I sort of fill in the one-offs. And generally speaking, that's where the journalism comes into play because very few journalism outlets these days are signing up writers for recurring work. And so there's the foundation. And then there's what I call sort of the embellishments of journalism beyond that.

J- That makes sense. How do you talk your current clients into a recurring agreement? What does that look like?

M- It's a two-pronged strategy. Number one, I seek recurring agreements. So if I see that a company is looking for someone to do a three month gig or a six month gig, those are the jobs that I'll go after. Because again, it's recurring. Once you get set up in the system, which usually takes longer than it should, you don't even have to worry about invoicing, per se. So that's number one. And then number two, you know, generally speaking, if a project seems large enough, instead of negotiating per word, I'll move to a flat fee and then try to break it down on a monthly basis. And again, I do that, number one, for ease of tracking, but then again, number two, to sort of set myself up so that I can break it down into sort of filling that need for recurring income in my monthly finances.

J- Yeah, do you find that your clients have been amenable to that when you ask?

M- I've found that. Yeah, I mean, it's been interesting. During the pandemic, some clients with whom I do have a recurring relationship have asked if maybe we could ratchet down the hourly rate, which I'm sure there are some who would argue with me on this point, but given that everyone is facing the same pandemic, obviously my first choice was not to drop the hourly rate, but in the end I agreed because some work at a reduced hourly rate is better than no work and the opportunity costs or opportunity expensive of then trying to find new work. So I was happy to sort of change the terms of the agreement. Obviously, if it becomes that I'm losing money on the deal, I also will not be afraid to speak up. But again, if the goal is recurring work, it seems somewhat hypocritical to then reject the recurring work when a slight tweak to the contract would keep it going.

J- Yeah, I agree. I think the benefit of not having to seek out other work for me is usually worth it even if the rate is slightly reduced, if it's recurring. You said "product line" when you were talking about certain kinds of stories, certain kinds of work. I love hearing kind of these business terms work their way into our conversation. Why do you think thinking about yourself as a business has been important in your trajectory?

M- I'll never forget. I took a magazine class in college and the professor was a freelance writer who's still a really great friend of mine and she was the first person to introduce this sort of metaphor into my world. And I remember at the time she talked about how she sees herself as a factory and she has a bunch of different product lines. And one of the product lines is journalism. And one of the product lines is copywriting. And one of the product lines is ad copy. And I remember hearing her sort of justify it by saying "Look, to me it doesn't matter what products I'm producing. I trade in content and that's my industry, that's my business. And each of these product lines, they all work together to make me successful." And then at the time I was like, that's the biggest bunch of I've ever heard. And what's so funny is about 10 years later, I got it and started talking the same way. And I mean, look, writing is a craft and freelancing is a business. And I've been beating that drum for 15 years, doing the speaker circuit on this subject. And that line is sort of the mantra of what I have to say on the subject. You know, freelancing is more than just being all artsy-fartsy about a job opportunity that you might have to tell a story. It's actually the exact opposite. If you invest hours upon end to make something artsy-fartsy and really started to pull your hair out over every assignment, you will fail. Freelancing is a business and you need to be tactical and strategic about the way you approach, not only each opportunity, but about the way you approach your own career in the longterm. And I think this is the reason why people fail, because people don't understand that there is a difference between the two.

J- Yeah, absolutely. I think that shift for me to thinking about this as a business is the reason why I make six figures. I tell people that all the time, right? These are services. I have clients. I make investments in myself or my business. So always gets me excited when I hear other people using those terms, because it's not as common as I would like it to be. Tell me about kind of your best tip that you would have to give other people, other freelancers when it comes to business, like good business decisions you've made for yourself.

M- Yeah, I've got two. One is practical and the other is somewhat metaphysical. The best business decision I have made in 25 years was investing in a dedicated office. So for years and years, I was one of these folks who was sorta like, I got my laptop, I got my file box. I could work anywhere. And that's true if I have to travel, but it was in 2015 when my wife was pregnant with our third child. And I was actually getting booted from the room where I had been working in our house that I decided to invest in an actual office, which as I mentioned is in the back corner of my garage, but I hired a contractor, built this thing out, we've got soundproof sheet rock in here. I got an HVAC unit in here, tons of outlets, lots of USB jacks in the wall, a standup desk. And this really is my man cave, freelance lair, sanctuary, whatever you want to call it. But to know that I have a place that's mine, that I can come to work andjust focus on my business -- that was huge, especially with kids running around the house. So that's sort of one practical advice. The more metaphysical tip is to not be an asshole. You know, it might seem sort of obvious, but I can't tell you how many people I see get into this business with an attitude like they're owed something and publications or companies would be lucky to have writer ABC contributing content. That's not how any of this works. Every gig is an opportunity. And like I mentioned earlier, especially if you're looking at corporate writing, it's not about you. It's not about your voice. It's about how well you can assimilate. How well you can sort of prove that you're a team player. And that's really hard, I think, for writers who tend to be sort of loan sharks to begin with. It's really hard for writers to grasp, but the nicer you are and the easier you make it for your editors to do their jobs, the more work I think you'll find you receive without it.

J- Yep, absolutely. There are other humans on the other side of the inbox, right? I feel like I am a broken record telling people that. Like, be a human because those are other humans too. Well I think that is a great note to end on, but why don't you tell us where we can find you? Are you on social media? Do you have a website? Where can people look to read your work?

M- I do. My website is whalehead.com. That's whale like the animal, head like the body part. And I am on social media and most social media platforms. It's just my byline, Matt Villano: V as in Victor, I L L A N O.

J- Awesome. Well thank you Matt for your time, and we will catch up with you soon on Twitter.

M- Thanks, Jenni.

W- Ah, I love it. Matt is hilarious and so generous.

J- Yeah. I think we could have talked for like a full hour. Matt is a wealth of knowledge. I do want to pull out a few key points here. First. I love what he said about both of us in our businesses being a factory and your business having product lines. So Wudan, do you think of your business that way?

W- Absolutely. I was on that panel with New York Times, editor Tim Herrera about running the business of freelancing with Jen A Miller who literally, you know, opened up a spreadsheet and pulled out numbers and how much income each bucket of hers brought in, and no single bucket accounted for more than 20%. I immediately chimed in and I was like, this is how it should be. Diversify, diversify, diversify.

J- Yes. I think we most often use the term buckets on this podcast, but I've really, really liked the way Matt conceptualize it as like an actual factory. Like I am a storytelling factory and I offer many different kinds of stories for sale that are products. I love that.

W- Yeah. I'm also really into the way he talks about making connections with people to chase down work.

J- Honestly, the fact that he does multiple informational interviews every week is totally wild. Like, we have always known that Matt is very good at connecting with people. He's one of those people who just knows everyone, but it is pretty incredible to see how that also turns into work for him.

W- The corporate client language is fascinating too. We actually had Matt write up a template for how to reach out to corporate clients or brands. And we'll be including that for our All Access Writers' Co-op members on Patreon.

J- Yes. Matt also filled out a basic business plan for us and he is including some slides about his finances. So we're going to share all of that with our All Access, Pitch Perfect, Pod Coaching, VIP members. I think that you will find it super interesting.

W- Another thing I loved was Matt’s note about setting up an office.

J- Yes. Didn’t you just set up one in your new house?

W- I did. I think I said this last episode, I recently moved during the pandemic. It's a three bedroom house with quote unquote, one bedroom that, you know, maybe can fit up a blow up mattress. So I furnished it as my dedicated office. I'm very excited to expense it when tax season rolls around.

J- Yeah. I also finally spent some time making my office nicer. I guess I had in my head that we were going to be done with this in September and I could go back to my co-working space, but clearly that is not happening. It was very wishful thinking. So I got a new rug, I got some plants, I covered the wall with bulletin boards and whiteboards. My husband calls it my war room, which feels sort of accurate, but it is really helping me to have a quiet space for me to be alone. I think it's really important, especially with a kid.

W- Was Matt’s parenting advice helpful to you?

J- It was. You know, what I most deeply appreciated was his honesty. I think that it doesn't serve anyone to pretend that this is all working perfectly. He's right that basically what happens is you have kids and then you need to make more money, but you have less time. And also you're exhausted. I have spent a few weeks thinking about his advice. We recorded this episode a couple of weeks ago and what it made me realize is that I needed to make my business more lean, like I needed to do less work, but the things I needed to do had to be more highly paid. So I actually fired a couple of my lower paying clients. I came up with a new hourly rate. I stuck it on my wall and I'm working on streamlining my business, looking for more highly paid clients, and I hired an assistant to do some of this stuff that just builds up. Emails, scheduling, all of that. So, you know, short answer: Yes. I just think it's very permission-giving to hear someone else say "This is bad and hard." I sort of just thought maybe I screwed up and I wasn't handling it well, to be honest. And I think I'm starting to realize that that's just not the case. This is just difficult. And I am also starting to realize that the flexibility of freelancing is both a blessing and a curse when you have a kid around.

W- Yeah, I do not have children. So I literally cannot imagine what you guys are going through. Parents are just heroes during this time.

J- So I was hiking last week. I had my 22 pound child strapped to my back. I was like sweating. And this guy was pushing his baby in a stroller. A stroller! Up the steepest part of the trail. And I looked at him and I was like, dude, you're crushing it. We were almost near the top. And he looked at me and he was really out of breath. And he goes, "I don't have a choice!" And that really resonated with me. Like it was a true pandemic vibe. Like, we don't have a choice.

So on that very uplifting note, you know, I think that does it for our conversation today. But as we said above, we will be sending you resources from Matt. If you're an All Access, VIP, Pod or Pitch Perfect member. And some of those options, like we said last week, are newish. So we hope that you will visit our Patreon page to check us out. If you've been supporting us all the time, you know, last season, this season, we just want to also say thank you. It really makes a difference. And you can buy last season's resources on our website too, which is thewriterscoop pod.com. Those are all compiled into a workbook and it's really useful to work through all of those resources. As you're listening to the first season.

W- We redid our membership program to add in more face-to-face coaching options and more community. So I'm really excited about it. And I hope that you'll be able to join us. As always, send us emails, tweets with your negotiation wins, pressing business questions, and money goals for the coming year. We love to hear it. That's at thewriterscoop2@gmail.com. I will talk to you later, Jenni.

J- Bye, Wudan.

W- Season two of The Writers' Co-op is made possible by a grant from the International Women's Media Foundation. Susan Valot is our editor and Jen Monnier handles research, admin and more as our producer. The Writers' Co-op is hosted by me, Wudan Yan and Jenni Gritters.