Mistakes Were Made

SEASON 6, EPISODE 1:

Let’s be honest: No one is perfect at running a business. We’ve all screwed up. We’ve all been too pushy or not pushy enough. We’ve all reacted too quickly when a situation doesn’t go the way we want it to. In both Wudan and Jenni’s coaching practices (and in our own businesses), we’ve helped our clients navigate and reflect on their relationships with their clients, and that’s what we’re doing in this episode, too.

Complaining about a client outcome that didn’t go your way can feel soothing at first. For many of us, venting is a normal part of coping. And, of course, in many ways, the system sucks and we want to place blame on the overburdened editors, the crappy pitch pipeline, the poor pay, late payments… the list goes on and on. But in almost every situation, you’re part of the interaction, too. During coaching conversations, we’re often pushing people to figure out what they can own, because that’s where you DO have some control. So: What is your responsibility when things don’t go your way in your business? And how can you address those blind spots?

We share examples of where we’ve screwed up, and what we’ve learned.

Full Transcript Below:

Wudan Yan- Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Writers' Co-op.

Jenni Gritters- We are your co-hosts. I'm Jenni.

Wudan Yan- And I'm Wudan.

Jenni Gritters- And we are back. We're reemerging from a very nice, very long summer hiatus.

Wudan Yan- If you're just discovering the show now, you will quickly learn that we love taking breaks from work. So Jenni, fill us in. What did you get up to the last few months?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, I'm laughing at the word break, because I'm not sure I had a break, although it wasn't working. My summer has been spent giving birth to, and then caring for, a new tiny human. Her name is Lily, Lily Ray. She was born in June. And so we're recording this in September. And I'm just now kind of emerging from that fourth trimester. I'm sort of really sleep deprived still. But honestly, I'm doing pretty well otherwise, which wasn't the case, the first time around with my son. I was thinking how the very first season of this podcast we released right during this exact time, but with my son, and it was COVID. And it was craziness. So feels definitely more chill this time around. And if you listened to the last season, you will also know that I had hyperemesis during pregnancy, which just made working and like generally living my life extremely difficult. So honestly, I'm in a really good place right now, because I feel like myself again. Let's see, we also live in a vacation town now, so we've been spending lots of days on the lakes or the river. It's honestly been super lovely. We have been doing lots of toddler-related activities, and then taking long adult hikes when the kids are in childcare. So it's been like this whole mix of chaos. And it's also been challenging, but like very lovely and fulfilling too. So I took 16 whole weeks off, and I'm about at the end of that. That's me. What about you? Wudan? What have you been up to during this time?

Wudan Yan- Love that it's been 16 weeks for you, first of all, something to always aspire to. For me, I did something a bit unconventional this summer. I took a full month off to try and hike the Pacific Crest Trail that goes through Washington state. And that whole thing is a bit over 500 miles. And I was just really inspired to do it after realizing so much of what I have already hiked in Washington briefly intersected with the PCT. So spoiler alert, I didn't get to do the whole thing this year because of injury. Also, it was a really weird snow year here in Washington. Things didn't start melting until a few weeks later than usual, compared to the last few warmer years. So I ended up doing about 370 miles. I'll finish the rest next year, when I can take more time off to make that happen. And it was just incredible to log off and walk and breathe and focus on not pooping my pants and seeing just like truly beautiful country.

Jenni Gritters- So much poop talk.

Wudan Yan- Oh my God.

Jenni Gritters- 370 miles is still totally nuts and such an accomplishment. And from what you've told me, it also sounds like the experience was a really good mental recharge.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, it was I'm back now, and I'm ready to do things. Yeah, all caps. DO THINGS.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, we definitely have big like back to school energy right now for sure. And honestly, I'm pretty proud of us too, that we built this business. And we did this intentionally to run fairly well without us being here. And so I'm really grateful that everyone gave us some grace for being a little bit quiet this summer and also to our team for keeping things running while we were away.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, taking time off requires a lot of work.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, it seriously does.

Wudan Yan- Yeah. Jenni, what are we talking about on the show today?

Jenni Gritters- So today's episode, as per usual, is borne out of our text conversations, our rants, our raves, our gripes. And we are going to dive into mistakes that most freelancers make that probably cost you some business.

Wudan Yan- Ah, yes. Personal responsibility,

Jenni Gritters- Personal responsibility. Every business is a two-way street. And if you're working in relation to someone else—

Wudan Yan- —literally anyone else—

Jenni Gritters- —yeah, anybody else. You play a role in that given interaction. There are two of you.

Wudan Yan- We see this so much in our own coaching practices. Folks come in and they lament the system, which is perfectly fine. Whether it's journalism and the terrible contracts, the whole 'hurry up and wait thing' when onboarding new clients or having to constantly follow up with prospective clients or on pitches or feeling like you're waiting forever to get paid. We acknowledge that the system is rigged, and it's bad. And in almost every situation you play a role too.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, I want to say that I think being able to vent is very important. It's actually something we learned in my coaching training, that you have to let people vent before they're ready to take action. But after the venting ends, because venting does have to end at some point, I always ask my clients this question—and like, no one likes it. They all get really uncomfortable—and I ask: What was your responsibility and that situation? The answers that people come up with require a lot of vulnerability and courage and bravery, because it means acknowledging that maybe it's not just a victim-bully situation, right? We all respond or interact in ways that make a client shy away from us sometimes that's just the truth for me, for you, Wudan, for everyone, for every person I've ever coached, that's true. And realistically, I think the reason why we want to talk about this today is because this personal responsibility is where you have control in this situation. You cannot control your client, but you can look at your own behavior and decide what responsibility you want to claim and learn from it, right? So today, we are going to discuss some of those possible pain points, mistakes, whatever you want to call them, and how to learn from them.

Wudan Yan- Before we begin, Jenni, do you have a story somewhere along your freelance journey where you lost work? What happened? And what did you learn?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, I do have a story here. And when we were scripting this episode, I went back and forth about whether I should include this one, because honestly, it still makes me cringe a little bit. But I want to share it, because I think it was a really huge inflection point in my business, where I realized that I have some personal monster, some buttons that were being pushed that were coming up. And I want to be clear that every person has these, no matter how much work we do or how much experience we have with freelancing.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, I agree. This is scary stuff to admit to yourself. I almost think that if you're thinking about the mistakes you've made, they should make you cringe a little at first blush. And of course, sharing our own stories is a big part of this podcast, and we want to lead by being vulnerable ourselves.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, totally. So here's the story. I was working pretty consistently with a publication during, I think it was my first year of freelancing. It was really early on. And they gave me an assignment every month, at least. So it was Q&As, feature stories. It was a lot of work. I think it accounted for about $40,000 of my income that first year. And about six months into that relationship, I pitched a story. It was a personal story that I was really passionate about. It was basically a reported personal essay. They assigned it to me, and I worked on it for a couple of months. It was really deeply reported, there was a lot of personal narrative, the editor I was working with loved it, and then he passed it to the top editor. And I literally remember this moment: I was sitting on an airplane pre-COVID, and I opened up my email and he was like, 'sorry, the top editor just killed the story.' No reasons, no explanation. She just didn't think it was a good fit for the publication. She was upset about the angle, which the editor I worked with had actually proposed. I was devastated. It was a more personal story than I think I've ever worked on before. And it felt like it was a personal affront to me. And so I said as much in an email on that airplane. I typed it out on my phone. That was definitely over the top. It was pretty reactionary. And after that, the editors stopped saying yes to my pitches, like any of my pitches. And at the same time, I was also editing for that publisher, and so I also had a view of the back end and the editorial calendar. So I could see those editors assigning stories that were pretty similar to what I was pitching. Sometimes they were pretty much the same as what I was pitching. And I got really fed up. I think I was also feeling some scarcity, some desperation for the work. And so I said something about that. I emailed, and I said, 'hey, I can see that some other people are landing pitches that are really similar to mine, and I was wondering what I could do to make my pitches be a better fit. And it was radio silence from then until forever. I was removed from the editorial backend and assigned to edit a different vertical, so I couldn't see their editorial calendar anymore. And I never got an assignment again from those editors. I even, a few months later, emailed this, like over-the-top apology saying that I didn't realize I wasn't supposed to look at their editorial calendar. Like it wasn't—you know, I wasn't doing anything wrong. It was part of my job. Nothing. In retrospect, I think that they were busy. I think the publication was changing direction. The top editor was new. I actually don't think that that story being killed was personal at all in any way. But it felt so personal. And then the more I got silenced, the more I like panicked and felt the need to reach out. Feels to me like dating or something, right? The less someone's giving you, the more you feel like you need, the more clingy you get. What's interesting is I think if you ask those editors about that situation, they probably don't remember it. But it was a huge deal for me. I've actually like coached and interacted with those people later on. And I don't think they even know what happened. But I still remember it, and it was a huge loss. I felt like I had done something really wrong. And I didn't know what it was, and that thing is a really big insecurity for me. So it was like they were stepping on all of my buttons at once.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, thumbs down to all of this. Like, your reactions are valid. The whole situation just sucks at the end of the day. And your particular story really goes to show how much power a single client can have over you, just due to the inherent nature of these power dynamics, especially when it directly affects such a large portion of your income.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, absolutely. I think that was a huge part of it, losing that made me feel really scarce and really nervous. So what about you, Wudan, do you have an example of when you did something that might have cost yourself work?

Wudan Yan- The example that I wanted to share is one that I've played out so many times in my head and wondered what went wrong. My friend likes to say that I like closure, because I'm a Pisces. But I'm not actually sure if that's accurate. The story is: I was contracted with a new media company for fact-checking. And I included language in my contract to say that anything that was out of scope of fact-checking would be billed at a higher hourly rate. Even before I received that fact-checking work, I was asked to join lots of editorial meetings, which I thought was out of the ordinary for similar types of contracts that I've been on previously. So I basically asked to clarify if I could bill hourly for those meetings. And I think my enforcing of this boundary tripped a wire for the client. Even though my contract protected me, they pulled the plug and didn't agree to follow through on what was in my contract. And of course, this sucks, right? Because in this situation, nobody won. I lost a few thousand dollars of work, my client had to hustle to find somebody else at the 11th hour, really, truly not ideal for either party. And it really goes to show how tricky it is to enforce boundaries with clients, and that sometimes this can backfire, depending on how people interpret this boundary-setting, both personally and in a professional setting.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, this feels super real. I think this is people's biggest worry about enforcing boundaries, right? Like, somebody is going to feel like you've stepped on their own boundary. And I think just like in my story, no one is particularly AT FAULT. Like, it's very hard to assign blame in either situation. But it costs both people right? Both you and the client involved in this interaction, things didn't go well for either of you. And so I think both people then assume some responsibility, right? I've seen this happen so many times in my business, with my clients, too. It really sucks. Like, there's just this like, gross regret feeling, plain and simple. Your reaction makes total sense.

Wudan Yan- And when we were brainstorming this episode, we decided that we wanted to spend some time on this boundary-setting and boundary-pushing—and basically what can get perceived as 'pushy'—behavior.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, let's start there. So I think what can happen is that we end up being so lasered in on our own needs and boundaries—which is something we teach people how to do, right? To figure out what they need. But sometimes we get so focused on that, that we don't hear a client's boundary, and we push past it.

Wudan Yan- So examples of this are, you know, a client telling you they can't change a term in a contract, for instance, and yet you continue to badger them about this very specific thing.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah. Or maybe like in my story, you're checking in way too much about a potential assignment, you're asking a ton of questions, maybe you're pushing back about a killed assignment, which they've already killed, and usually they can't ukill it, or even a late payment. There's this over checking that can happen.

Wudan Yan- And whether it's intended that way or not, the client will probably interpret that as you being too pushy. It's like having somebody constantly tapping on their shoulder to please hurry and get their particular ask done.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah. And I think we've been on both sides of this, like, especially when I was an editor, that constant prodding ultimately feels like a very big turnoff. So I think in the story I shared above, from an editor's perspective, I could see how I was being so annoying. Like, they had so much to do. I've been an editor. I always had so much to do. They couldn't hold my hand. They couldn't baby me. Their publication was going through big changes. As an editor, I never had time to walk someone through what to do differently, because the reality is that their pitches weren't working, I had an inbox with over a thousand other pitches, and I had to move on. It wasn't personal. But of course, the more those people would push, the less I would want to interact. Even though that's not 100% fair, it is the reality of the situation.

Wudan Yan- Totally. And clients who hire freelancers are just juggling so many freakin things already.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, I think another part of this comes in when you believe that other people—whether it's like other freelancers in your network or past clients—owe you something. This is something Wudan and I text about a lot, this sort of, yeah, you think that other people owe you help or resources or feedback.

Wudan Yan- Or just work. I mean basically, when you're taking more than you're receiving.

Jenni Gritters- Totally, it's got to be a two-way street. We see this happen a lot with coaching. People are asking us for things that just go too far, right? Like, we have all these free resources, but people want editor connections, they want free consults, they want resources, all these things. And I think embedded in this response—which happens a lot, I think, especially with early freelancers—is that it's based on scarcity. So you're worried about where your next assignments gonna come from, which means you're worried about where the money's coming from. And so you start frantically checking in or frantically over asking for some kind of resource or help. It feels like scrambling, and it puts you in a place of asking for more than what someone else is able to give you.

Wudan Yan- We should say that these are pretty natural reactions to have based on what's going on in your life at a given time. So if you're acting out of scarcity, you're panicked, you're reaching out in search of security. Or feedback, or something that appears to you as soothing. And seeking those other things is not the job of the other person to provide them. And I think this is where personal responsibility comes in.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, totally. So like I said before, in coaching, I often ask people: What is your role in this situation? Like, what is your responsibility? Everybody hates that question. So if we go back to those original scenarios, Wudan, let's talk about what our responsibility was. I think in mine, I can see how I was pushing too hard for feedback. Because the situation was pushing a button for me, like I said, it was like I had done something wrong, but it was unintentional, and so I wanted to repair it. But I didn't even know how, because I didn't know what I'd done wrong. And so I was asking for them, essentially, to say to me, 'you're fine, Jenni, like, you're safe. It's fine.' But realistically, that is not their job. I was creating something for them that wasn't working. That's just a true fact, right? So that's on me. And I need to figure out how to make myself feel safe. I can't ask them to do that for me. So I think now, obviously, I've done a lot of personal work to be able to even say that, and I would approach it much differently. I would probably do some self-soothing work before I responded to them, because while the situation is a mutual situation, my emotions and my insecurities are my responsibility. So what do you think? How do you take responsibility for the story that you talked about, Wudan?

Wudan Yan- For me, right now I'm in a place with my business where I get really fed up with unpaid labor very quickly. And any type of possible scope creep—basically, every hour, I'm on the clock working needs to be accounted for and billed to a particular project, not counting my admin work. And I'm pretty big on enforcing boundaries with clients and being direct about my needs. But sometimes I think that can come off as possibly, not even needy, but maybe pushy for them—way more pushy than they wanted somebody to be. Or maybe, you know, the client may have wanted somebody to be at their beck and call and not be difficult. Because, we can't read our clients minds. And you can't see me now. But I'm basically the shrug guy, like, who knows?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, that makes total sense, right? It's, you have a need, and especially anybody pushing past what's that scope creep, is going to hit a button for you. Right? So Wudan, I'm curious, how do you think about combating those instincts—which I think like we just said, all of us have, to some extent?

Wudan Yan- The first step with anything is to be aware that this is something that I do. I feel like I'm in a Vipassana meditation, which is like practicing awareness all over. So I need to figure out for myself, if particular moments or situations or interactions set me up to be more pushy, why? Like, why is that happening? What's happening in the situation? And then the next question I asked is: What's going on with me and my life and my business in this particular moment that's prompting this knee jerk reaction.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, something I often ask my clients is: What are you making this mean? And by that, I mean, like, you know, someone is responding to you in a certain way. Depending on what's going on in your life, like you just said, or a certain button you might have that they're pushing, you might be turning it into something that means something huge, right? Like they said no to this thing, so they're going to be a terrible client. And so we talked about, is that actually true? Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. I think you're exactly right, that it's like awareness of that trigger, awareness of the buttons that are being pushed. You have to be able to see those for what they are, and that process is extremely uncomfortable. That self-awareness piece just takes a lot of time to learn. I don't think we're ever really done learning it. But especially, I want to say, if you have grown up in an insecure state, or have some kind of trauma, or even you just have past experiences in this industry that made you feel unsafe, or you know, work got taken away from you because you did something, you will be more likely to look for security from others. And that is what I think this pushiness is ultimately about. And this is why I spend a lot of time working with people on mindset blocks and coaching because this stuff is in your bucket. The buttons that are being pushed, those are your buttons, right? They push them, but they're yours. The buttons don't belong to the client. And it can totally initially feel like it's their fault if you have this scarcity-oriented identity, which I just feel like a lot of us in journalism have because of our past experiences. So I will also say, it's just challenging to identify these buttons and these particular difficult points yourself. And that's where a coach or a therapist comes in, or even a trusted friend, they can help you think about the trends that they're observing in your own business. Like, are these less-than-ideal situations cropping up often? Are you responding in this way often? Are you losing a client in the same way often? That's a pattern you might want to look at. Like, is there a common thread there? That's usually the best place to start.

Wudan Yan- And that common thread sometimes being...you?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, totally. I think it often is. And for sure, sometimes it's the client. For sure, sometimes it's the industry. But I think we sort of over-blame the industry. But if we want to take control the situation, we have to look at what we're doing in each of those situations, right? We have to take responsibility, because none of us are perfect. Our clients are not perfect either. I think that's the other thing. We're all just humans trying to interact with each other with very messy human responses

Wudan Yan- For our all access members, after you're done complaining, we'll have some journaling prompts that will help you dissect your role in tricky situations that may be costing you work. I do want to mention that Alex Laughlin, who was penning a column on Poynter called 'The Cohort' wrote her goodbye a few weeks ago. And one frame she shared when making decisions I really loved. And it basically was a question of 'does this action (fill in whatever action), does this come from a place of abundance or scarcity?' We'll link to the piece in the show notes. But I think that question is pretty close to the crux of what we're discussing here, right? Like, why are you responding to a client or colleague in this particular way? Is it because you're scared and scrambling or because you're trusting that things will work out, and that you have the tools you need to succeed? And having some awareness about why we're responding in a certain way can really be insightful in the long term.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, agreed. That was a great piece. And I think you're right. It's at the root of what we're talking about, is understanding where you're coming from when you respond the way you do. I want to add another mistake to this list that I would say cost freelancers—I don't even know if we can call these mistakes, but they're just like things that we do that we have to learn from because they don't work. One that I see a lot, and that you can actually see in my original story, is having a knee jerk response to a rejection or a situation that you don't like. So from a writer's perspective, right, that happened to me when that story was killed. I was so sad. I was personally offended. And so I just like, typed out an email on my phone that said that much. And I definitely should have waited 24 hours to respond, from a professional perspective. And I want to say I did try to respond professionally. I wasn't like, "Oh I am so sad. Boohoo.' I was more like, in a professional way, like, 'This is upsetting. I'd love to know why this isn't a fit.' But still, I should have waited. So from an editor's perspective, when I worked as an editor, and I was turning down pitches or making proposed edits that were pretty extensive on a particular story, and the writer didn't like them, I got so many rude emails. And they were always—the rudest ones were the ones that came like 10 minutes after I sent an email. They were the knee jerk responses. So things like 'you're taking away my voice, you need to tell me how to do this better, I'm trying as hard as I can, I have XYZ going on in my life and you need to understand that.' I even caught the occasional 'f-u, you don't know a good story when you see one.' And then the incredible thing is like, I would almost always get an apology email from those people the next day. Like, they were trying to repair it. But you really can't repair that in an industry like this, where there are so many other people pitching, right? Like, the editor just doesn't want to deal with that.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, I am thinking about all the emails that I have sent and then immediately—I have the Gmail undo button—and I'm like undo, undo, undo! Like, pretend that didn't happen. I do that a lot. Which is why I think these stories of people apologizing after they say something instinctively is horrifying. And fascinating to me that they'll want to send that corrective after the fact.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, it's another manifestation of 'don't do the thing that your knee jerk reaction tells you to,' right? This is self-awareness. This is that quote that I always talk about: 'Between stimulus and response, there is space.' In the space is where you have control, and if you're just 'stimulus response,' you're responding based on your whims. It's not gonna go well. So this self-awareness piece here is why are you responding in that way? What button is being pushed? Edit yourself.

Wudan Yan- Undo your email.

Jenni Gritters- Yes.

Wudan Yan- But seriously, Jenni, do you have ways of combating this? Rejection and hearing things you don't like is honestly just a fact of life, and I think freelancing, in many ways, sets us up for rejection in many different directions. So a pitch gets turned down, a client doesn't like our project proposal, a client hires someone else over us, so on and so forth. It's inevitable in freelancing,

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, totally inevitable. I am all about the 24 hour pause. My initial reaction is always an emotion. Emotions are signals. They are, however, not facts. I am upset. That does not necessarily mean that the situation is upsetting, that I'm going to feel upset forever like, this wave that comes over me. Being upset doesn't mean I'm the victim, either. Like, I can be upset and have responsibility in the situation. Or maybe I'm angry, but that doesn't mean that the person who made those edits I don't like or whatever is bullying me, right? So I need space to work through what I just basically said out loud. I need to work through the emotion, I need to think about it, I need to feel it, I need to move past it, then I need to be in a more balanced place. If I get an edit, or a rejection or whatever, something I don't like, I will usually walk away from my computer. I have to let it settle. I have to talk it over with my husband or a friend. Then eventually I can respond from a clearer place. But otherwise, I'm responding directly from like the pit of that emotion, and it's not great. I have learned to do that over time, I will say—that is a skill that is still evolving for me. Even in past full time jobs, I really struggled with this, because I want to do in the moment, is prove that I am right. That I am feeling a certain way, and it is valid, and it is the other person's fault. That does not serve me in the long term. So what about you, Wudan?

Wudan Yan- Therapy?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah.

Wudan Yan- But on a more concrete note, I think because so many of these interactions happen by email, again, like I have to remind myself that I have a lot of control over these situations. So if an email is not urgent for me to respond to, which most are not urgent, nobody's going to die. Nobody's going to poop their pants, except maybe you. See, this is like what happens after you hike for like, almost 400 miles by yourself, you're like, is this really that urgent? Is somebody going to die? Or am I going to poop my pants? Am I going to die? Or am I going to poop my pants? If the answer is no, it's probably not urgent. So back to email urgency. If it's not urgent, pause. I usually star the email, and I answered it in the next day or two when emotions are not super heightened. And frankly, sometimes the next day or two, I have forgotten about the initial email. I don't have a separate filter or label for it in my Gmail, it's just like starred. It's in my starred folder. Because it's easy to navigate both on my phone and in my browser.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, I think the lesson here from both of us and from so many of the clients I've worked with, is just wait it out so that your emotions aren't reigning supreme and you have some control.

Wudan Yan- When you can respond intentionally and not as a reaction.

Jenni Gritters- Totally.

Wudan Yan- So the last thing we wanted to dig into on this episode—and of course, this is not any means comprehensive of what might be costing us as freelancers—is losing work when we price projects too high or too low.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, I think this is related to what we just talked about, because pricing is something that is very mindset based, and often, we just sort of have this knee jerk response, right? So quoting prices to clients and getting to that Goldilocks (not too high, not too low rate), it can feel totally arbitrary. But there's also this like, unspoken rule book about it, so it is an area that is really tricky for most freelancers to navigate. And like I said, I think this actually comes back to that sort of like intention versus reaction Wudan Yan- ownership bit too.

Wudan Yan- Agreed. And if you've priced too low, a client may be suspicious about whatever quality of work they're about to receive.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, and then pricing too high when you don't have the experience —or your portfolio doesn't really back up the quality of your work—can also raise red flags. So in either case, we often see people losing work because of this sort of pricing conundrum. And it's often because clients are usually vetting you next to other freelancers, right? You're sort of in this pile. They want to see who they are going to hire, and they are likely to move on to the next person if something feels off about that initial interaction.

Wudan Yan- We're not going to dig into the nitty gritty of pricing today, just because we've had so many conversations about that already. Check out our episode last season about discovery calls and our webinars on pricing that you can find at our online store.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, so generally speaking, if we're gonna get practical on this one, I think one way to combat this—this is sort of like the advanced level to me of like the other two things that we're talking about. Like, building a skill set of awareness and pausing with the other two is going to help you here. But one way to build the skill set here is to do your research. So take that pause, take some time, and price with a strategy in mind. Look up, talk to people, like do your research about what you should be charging, because clients hire us expect professional services, professional rates, and professional interactions.

Wudan Yan- One conversation I'm frequently having with coaching clients is pricing within their skill level. And also using other freelancers, or even maybe your coach, as a place to review your rates, because things change over time. So even if somebody gains a lot of experience in one skill set in just a matter of months, I would personally say that's grounds for raising the rates

Jenni Gritters- Totally. Because when the next client comes around, your quality of work is higher, and your services definitely then are worth more.

Wudan Yan- Jenni, do you think there's a price point that freelancers should start at, if they've already gotten a year or two of pretty solid professional experience under their belt?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, I think we said once upon a time in our business course, like a year ago—however long that was—that people should start around like $50 an hour, minimum. Like very bottom minimum.

Wudan Yan- Yes, with the world and inflation the way it is now. And the astronomical cost of living, especially in cities. Pricing initially based on $50 an hour doesn't seem so nutso. I mean, remember, you have to cover your own health care and self-employment tax, your vacation, and other miscellaneous stuff.

Jenni Gritters- Yep. And this is where like, you might hear people talking about $30 an hour, $20 an hour. This is where you stand your ground and think about what makes sense, what you need, what the client might be interested in, what your expertise gathers for the work that you're doing. So I'm curious, Wudan, do you have tactics to make sure that you're not pricing too high? Because again, I think this goes back to those two things—awareness, and taking time—that we just talked about. And we definitely have talked a lot so far about how to not lowball ourselves into oblivion.

Wudan Yan- Yes, definitely don't lowball yourselves. And I generally think that I try to get as much money as possible. Not in a greedy way, but in the sense that I know what my work is worth at this point. Even a year and a half, two years ago, I used to basically have the client name their price first. And then I go see if it felt reasonable for me. And I would go into these pricing conversations already with what I want in mind, too. And if those figures are more or less the same, I would just accept the rate as is. And as a gained more experience, I would ask for raises on that base fee, especially because then I would know what's a comfortable budget for the client. So what do you have to add to that, Jenni?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, I do the same thing. I think I'm generally gathering info upfront about the going rate for the service that I'm offering. I'm thinking about, like, how much experience do I have in offering that service. But I also still now ask the client for their budget first, often. If they don't want to say it, then I have a rate in mind. But I also make sure that I take some time to respond after they've shared their rate, because I think it's so easy—and again, this goes back to that question: Are you acting out of abundance or scarcity?—if you're acting out of scarcity, to just say, 'oh, sure, that's fine,' right? Like, oh, sure, you're gonna pay me for this thing, that's fine. And the way that you build a business and start to make more money is to consider what you think is appropriate for you. So if the rate doesn't feel quite right, you actually need some time to like, think about that and assess what you want to do going forward. So it's more of an art than a science, I think. It takes a lot of bravery. It takes a lot of looking at what you need and what they need, and we've talked a lot about this. It's a tricky dynamic. I'm going to be thinking about what's on offer, besides money, what else I have going on. But again, it comes back to what decision would you make if you're acting out of abundance? During the pause, can you answer that question for yourself? I guess what I'm saying is, I have a little meeting with myself. I evaluate all of this before I respond. So what about you?

Wudan Yan- Yeah, it's worth saying that like naming a price to a client for a project isn't like bidding at an auction, right? Like, it's not the same thing. The whole interaction is by email. There's again, no immediacy, generally, with email. So 24 hours I give myself after they come back with their offer, star the email, get back to the client the next day, wait it out. That's my strategy.

Jenni Gritters- Yep. I agree with you. So I think that does it for our little list of mistakes that we are making, although like we said, I'm sure there are more. But these are the ones we are seeing most commonly for freelancers that we work with.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, mistakes were made. So hopefully this gave you some stuff to think about with regards to the roles we have in our relationships with our colleagues, clients, ourselves.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah. And I want to say I'm almost not willing to call these mistakes because I think they are learnings. I think that for most of us, the only way to not do this is to do it, and reflect on the fact that we have done it, and then do it differently next time. So to review, these mistakes—the things we can take responsibility for—include responding to feedback or rejections in a reactionary way, responding too soon, or freaking out about money and pricing too low or too high without intentionality, or overstepping a client or another freelancer's boundaries because we feel panicked and pushy, and then we ask for too much. So at the root, this is really just about knowing your buttons, having self awareness, and taking time to be intentional rather than reactionary. We're all about intentional business building. This is a piece of that. It goes all the way around for every part of your business.

Wudan Yan- If you're an all access member on Patreon, snag those worksheets if you're interested in diving into how you can improve upon these relationships. And already you folks are talking about this episode in our Slack group. You can get in on that anytime at the All-Access level at patreon.com/twcpod.

Jenni Gritters- And big news: We have also opened up a hotline—dun dun dun—for you to leave anonymous voice memos for us this season. You can talk to us about what you'd like us to answer, what you'd like us to tackle on the show in upcoming episodes, you can just say hi—whatever you want. I'm excited about this. You can call us at 458-206-6127. We'll put that in the show notes. Or you can always email us. We're at thewriterscoop2@gmail.com.

Wudan Yan- All right, that does it. I will talk to you later, Jenni.

Jenni Gritters- Bye Wudan. Thanks so much for listening to the Writers' Co-op. This season is hosted by me, Jenni Gritters and Wudan Yan. It was produced by Jen Monnier and edited by Susan Valot.