Q&A: Ask Us Anything
SEASON 4, EPISODE 6:
Welcome to the new year! We’re back from our holiday break and getting ready to dive into all that 2022 has to offer. Today we are focusing on answering audience questions! We do a Q&A episode each season, and the questions get better each time. This episode, we’re digging into:
Why agencies can be helpful for jumpstarting your career as a new freelancer, and some red flags you might encounter related to agency work
How to incorporate your values and standards into your website and social media presence, so the clients who reach out to you are more likely to be aligned with your boundaries
How to talk about freelancing with people who might not take it seriously, or who think freelancing is scary/ unstable
Dealing with sexism and other barriers in freelancing due to your race, sexual orientation or identity
The amount of time to wait after pitching an idea to an editor
Advice we used to give but no longer buy into
Full Transcript Below:
Jenni- Hi everyone, and welcome to The Writers' Co-op.
Wudan- We are a business podcast for freelance creatives everywhere.
J- If you've been hanging out with us for a while, you know that we pretty much always do a mid-season q&a episode.
W- And it's that time! So today we're going to spend this hour or so addressing your questions about the business of freelancing, whatever they may be.
J- Love it. So before we dig into that, though, actually, let's have a word from our sponsor, which is actually another podcast.
W- Sometimes we do promotional swaps with podcasts that we love. And today that is with Meteor, an honest podcasts about science communication with impact. Hosts Beth in Bethann Garramon Merkne and Virginia Schutte wanted a dedicated space to jam out with other mid career science communicators. Somewhere to commiserate, call out each other when needed, and grow together. Meteor isn't just for people who are looking to improve their science communication. It's for people who want to make the world better through impactful scicomm tools and communities. So Meteor is for science communication practitioners, developing or mature scientists, and STEM professionals looking to enhance their big picture capacity, or build and refine the technical skills that fuel good science communications.
J- Meteor is a really awesome place to hang out, especially if you're a science journalist, and especially if you're craving more advanced user conversations. You know, if you're presented with new challenges in your business, or you want to push to the next level, this is the podcast for you. So you can find Meteor on pretty much all podcast players wherever you're listening to us. And then they're also on Twitter @meteorscicomm or at meteorscicomm.org.
W- I love it. All right, Jenni, let's hop right into this q&a episode. So the first question that we got is: I'm curious about your perspective on working for an agency as a way to build one's writing chops and industry knowledge as a stepping stone to freelance writing, versus just freelancing from the get go as a new freelancer who doesn't have a lot of experience? What do you think?
J- Yeah, this is a good question. We were actually texting about it today. So I work with quite a few writers, I coach them, who work with agencies. And I guess I don't want to say it's a good or a bad choice. But there are definitely some pros and cons to choosing to work with an agency, especially if you're a new freelancer. Basically, agencies find work for you. So they have a set of clients and they're going to bring freelancers in to help serve those particular clients. That's how they scale up and down, depending on who they're working with. So if you're trying to get your foot in the door, I do think agencies can be really useful because sometimes they'll give you work with multiple of their clients, which might help you get experience in writing or editing on a different topic, or maybe multiple different topics really quickly. So that is for sure a benefit if you're new. And I think there's also the benefit of not having to go out there and pitch, right? Like you're just getting assignments, and I think it eliminates that need to market quite so much, which can save you time. I guess the downside that I have seen with agency work is a lack of control. So a lot of times you're getting paid less. The agency is taking more of a cut. So if you're working directly with that client, you're taking the whole cut. If you're working through an agency, they're taking part of the payment as well. And I think sometimes, and this really varies depending on who the agency is, the expectations can be really high. So I have coached a lot of people who have to produce a ton of content. And then sometimes the expectations are so high that then they can't work with other clients outside of the agency work. And it kind of blocks them. I had one particular client who was spending about 30 hours a week with one agency client who wasn't paying her very much. And it was meaning that she actually couldn't hit her revenue goals because they were taking up so much time. So I always caution against working with just one agency, or even letting an agency go over like 40% of your workload, because I just think it can lock you into that lower pay structure, can lock you into, you know, what if that agency disappears, as we saw with COVID. It just is smart to diversify your client base just a little bit because you never know what would happen.
W- Yeah. And I've even heard that putting more than 30% of your income into one client is too much.
J- Yeah, I think I agree with that. I guess I would say if you are going to work with an agency, I would just be really clear on boundaries, clear on what you're getting out of the experience too, so like I always say to people, what's the win-win? Like what do you need to get from them? Even if you're an early freelancer, what's the experience you're trying to gain? What's the type of story you want to practice writing? And I also would consider it to be temporary, because later, once you have those skills, you've gotten the things you need to get, you're probably going to want to step away so that you can get the full fee from the clients instead of having someone else take a cut on top.
W- I think one other downside of not working too directly with the client, especially early on, is just not having that experience of negotiating or working in a very business to business way of running your own show since that agency is now doing the client management and negotiation for you. So I do fear that it can put anyone in a position where they're surrounded by the limiting belief that this is what your writing is worth, since those rates are already established by that agency. Those are just some ruts that can be challenging to break out of. That said, I also have some clients who have had success using agencies to break into a new niche, like they find a healthcare focused content agency in their city, and it can be a great way to make other connections.
J- Yeah, I do think that is an awesome way to use an agency. And I think that language is important, right? Like, what do you get in your business from working with them, right? So you can find agencies, people always ask this by, googling content agency or communication agency, or marketing agency along with a keyword that's based on either a niche or a location. And so for example, if I'm in Seattle, I might look up like Seattle, healthcare content writing agency and see what comes up. Sometimes you will also find that agencies will approach you on LinkedIn, if you are good about your keywords and you say that you're doing marketing writing. I've actually had that happen quite a bit. You know, when you're working for an agency, too, there's also the opportunity to create a lots of different types of content. And so I know people who will be doing some social media, some blogs, some articles, some ghost writing. So, defining your lane in that way is also really important. And then I guess the final thing I will say is that if you do decide to go this route, just keep in mind when you're signing the contract that you really don't want to sign a non-compete. A non-compete means that you can't work with clients who are in the same niche. So it'll say something like, say you're working for HubSpot, and they're doing marketing content, you can't work for any other marketing agencies. And of course, you as a freelancer need to be able to work with other clients in the same topic area, especially if it is your specialty. And you need to be able to work with them after you leave this agency as well. Your business actually depends on it. So I think that it really just is important, like I always recommend to people do a trial project. Make sure that it's a fit for you. And then also make sure that that contract you're signing does not prohibit future work, because that would not be great.
W- One other thing I've seen in agency contracts is that if you are a contractor with them, you can't take that agency's clients after you leave for about a year or two years. And that's just another consideration, honestly. So what is the price of admission that you're willing to pay for this kind of work? All right, Jenni, what is our next question?
J- Okay, so this next question, Wudan, I think you should answer this first. It is, how do you incorporate your standards and values into your branding—and by that they mean website, social media, etc—so you attract more potential clients who are already aligned with your values, and you avoid having to field inquiries from clients who might pose an ethical conflict or like not be a good fit for you? So what do you think about that?
W- So I personally bring my standards into my social media more clearly than on my portfolio. So my portfolio states the type of work that I'm looking for, that gets me excited and more. And I like to hope that clients are checking me out on social because at the end of the day, all of these are human interactions on the bird app that show you're on your same page as your client. So just, do you value the same things? Maybe you have some areas of interest in common. So on Twitter, I'm tweeting a lot about communication between clients and contractors, timely pay, fair pay and value. And I think the truth is, most of the opportunities I get for work, show that at least my work is not being devalued. Sometimes clients come to me because they want something voice-y. Maybe because they see that as part of my online personality. And, you know, I think I'm tweeting about yarn and knitting and my dog and time away from my computer. So clients have a sense that I have good boundaries. So overall, I think my online persona is a net good, and what clients might expect from me. I mean, Jenni, you know, me. I live and die by the principle that you don't get what you don't ask for. So for a portfolio and marketing standpoint, it is super important to know what you're looking to take on or even being explicit about what you're not doing. A few weeks back, I was getting a few opportunities for breaking news work, and then I realized that Wow, I've never even said it publicly on my webpage or anything that I don't do that anymore. Jenni, what's your take on all of this?
J- I think that's a really good point. You aren't gonna get what you don't talk about. So I think this actually feels a little tricky to me, this question. Obviously, if you go to my webpage, you can clearly see, I think what my values are. And that's because I took a lot of time when I redesigned my website to focus on coaching to like write down my values; they're boldness, adventure, authenticity, intuitiveness, then I took pictures that reflected those values. And I literally even thought about like colors and layout that reflects boldness and directness. So the way my website looks is the way I work. And I wanted people to see that when they opened up the page. So we're actually going to include some questions in this episode to ask yourself to ID those values before building out your website. Those will go to our Patreon members. But I also do just try to be myself online, like you said, Wudan. It's really important to me that I am authentic. That's a big value to me. Someone once told me, the best marketing is just being loudly yourself. And I really like that. So what you see is what you get with me, pretty much. And I think that goes beyond my website. It's just how I exist in the world. Pretty much shows what I stand for. So I also think, Wudan, because we have this podcast, I just have clients who will come to me and be like, I'm so sorry, we pay net 30. But we're gonna get your paperwork process really quickly, right? They kind of know what we stand for. They know they can't get away with things, because we've been really public about our opinions on this. And I think it has been, like you said, overall very net good for me. I do think there's something though, like, even though I've done all this work to put good fit stuff on my website and to talk about it in the you know, my work in a way that is authentic, I still think that initial conversation with a client is where I really get a sense for if they're the right fit for me. I still have people who are coming to me for writing, for example, and they want something that I don't really do. And so what I've started to practice is asking for clear information in an email, so we're not wasting each other's time on a call if we're not a good fit. But then also, my website, can't say no to people. I have to do that. And so that's why I always suggest a trial project, initial conversation. Are those red flags coming up? Like I'm not going to know that on my website, but I am going to know that once we have a conversation together.
W- I agree. I think generally, it's an overall good to have filters or signifiers of your filters that are public. We both live by this concept of being direct, no BS about our needs. It all comes back to boundaries. Okay. I think we're good on that. Our next question is and Jenni, we've actually talked about this a bit, but I think it's worth getting into again, here it is: I recently transitioned from a staff position to full time freelancing. I love freelancing so much. I'm working a lot on projects that matter to me with more autonomy and how I spend my time. I'm also making about the same amount of money I made as a staffer. But I've noticed that since I went freelance, I get a lot of condescending backhanded compliments from people who are still in the full time staff job zone. Comments like "I could never do that." "Or I don't know how freelancers even make money," "I would never want to do that." Go down the line. How do you respond to comments like this? To be fair, when I was a staffer, I didn't know how freelancers made money either. But I'd still like to know how you to handle this if and when it comes up?
J- Yep. I mean, this is really a real this is a good question. And happens to me, I think, all the time, it happened moreso when I had recently left a full time job. But even now, I probably have like five or six people I've coached who are from my past jobs, like I coach an old editor and a coach and old coworkers. So yeah, I think these conversations happen a lot. And I do think this goes back to our episode on limiting beliefs from the season, which I will link to in the show notes. For me, this is sort of about combating people's limiting beliefs by providing education. Like they really don't know what they don't know. And they're basing that "I could never do this" assessment on a stereotype of what freelancing is. I get a lot of joy from proving people wrong. So usually, I know it takes a little bit of work, like it takes a second to share my experiences as a narrative or a story. And it usually ends up being a very good counterpoint to their stereotypes about what freelancing is. This is also why I get coaching clients. It's because when I talk about freelancing, it goes viral. And I'm saying this can be different than you might expect. So to me, it's that same work, like freelancing can actually be good. That blows in people's minds in a good way, I think.
W- Yeah, that education, of course, can be extra work, like extra emotional labor. And that's the tricky part here. It's a large part why we created this podcast, because we couldn't keep talking about the same thing over and over and over again. We wanted a living handbook, audio book, that could help people rethink their expectations about freelancing. So Jenni, here's an important and interesting counterpoint: depending on who I talk, to especially folks outside of this industry, I describe myself as a small business owner. And as part of my business, I sell stories to mainstream newspapers and magazines, in addition to writing for brands and go down the list of all my services. I think that helps people get it a bit more, since you know, we're still in a pandemic, and people are looking to support small businesses. So that's just meeting people where they are, in a way. People and staff positions aren't wrong that freelancing is challenging. There are so many ways that this work can be really annoying, which is why I think I also make a point of showing also how fun and liberating it can be with projects that I decide to take on or how I decide to use my time. So to the person who asked this question, I'd also consider responding and reframing their question around what freelancing gets you rather than everything that makes it annoying, or what it costs you or how it feeds into society's perceptions of what freelancing is.
J- Yeah, I know a coach who, at the beginning of sessions with people, they'll say to her "this is what's not working. This is not what this is what's not working." And she'll just look at them and say, "Well, what's working? What's good?" And I think it is human nature for us to focus on the challenges. But there's a lot on the flip side of challenge. There's a lot of opportunity. So I love the idea of sort of flipping the script there and offering some information about what the benefits of freelancing are. I think the other piece of advice that I would impart on you, dear question asker, is that I think sometimes when people ask these questions, it hits a nerve, like it presses a button for us. And it feels like they're doubting you. Like they're talking to you about this, and they're doubting your decisions. And if you're not feeling super steady in your decision, yeah, it feels bad, right? It can feel like a personal criticism, and like, they're not really seeing you or taking you seriously. And I say this from personal experience. So I think this is easier said than done. But my therapist is teaching me to label things as mine and theirs. So when I'm in a situation and someone else's stressed, that's theirs. And my emotions are mine. As a people pleaser, and somebody who grew up in a family where there weren't good boundaries, I take on everybody's emotions, right? So when someone has doubt, for me, I think, oh, my god, is that my doubt? So what I would invite you to do is to categorize Who is this about? Is this about them? Or is it about you? And usually, it is about them, their expectations, their issues, their fears. I remember when my husband I decided to go travel nursing, there was a doctor who worked with him who was like, How dare you uproot your family in the middle of a pandemic, right? That was about him. It had nothing to do with us. That was his fear. So I just think that the question is, whose is it? And then the question is, do you have the bandwidth to address it? Because you don't always have to. Sometimes, I will have the bandwidth and sometimes I won't. Sometimes it'll be worth it. Sometimes it isn't. Because at the end of the day, I know my numbers, I know, freelancing works for me. I know how much time I take off, that's all I need to keep going. I don't really need their approval. So it's like, is it worth it to you to respond to them and provide them with that feedback? Because it is about them? Not about you.
W- Yeah, I agree with that last point you made, Jenni. Confidence is so much about trusting yourself and your decisions. And in these moments, it's a good time to practice that because confidence is a muscle. The more you work it, the stronger it gets.
J- Agreed. Okay, so this is actually a big question, this next one, Wudan. I'm gonna have you answer it. So this person says: How do you deal with sexism in freelancing? This has been a huge issue in my mind lately, especially given the challenges of running a woman-owned business, such as lack of access to loans or lack of support. Am I making this out to be bigger in my mind than it actually is? My male colleagues seem to know all this stuff. And many of them charge like five times more than I do. What are ways to mitigate sexism, if any, or at least mitigate this type of comparison?
W- This is another so real question. So the first thing that I want to point out from it is that there's a limiting belief hidden in here, the belief that being a woman-owned business is less valuable. And it's a belief that perhaps it's imported from society. But the starting point here is to ask questions. Where does that idea come from? Who does it serve? Probably men. Is it true of all women owned businesses? Can you think of a few counter examples? What can you learn from them? If so, and how can you reframe what might feel like the truth?
J- Yeah, totally. If you need help walking through some of those questions, again, we're gonna link in the show notes to that limiting belief episode. It's all in there and yeah, I think it's, like you said, Wudan, first important to challenge the beliefs in here. Which part of this is true for everybody?
W- Yeah. So again, that's just my first thought. This season, we're doing a lot of mindset plus action-based things generally. So next, I think, you know, I'd want to prove to myself that making a comparable revenue is possible. And it can help to start small, rather than to jump to that really high tier of revenue you think your male counterparts are pulling in. And I don't think it's possible to mitigate sexism, but it is possible for you to control some things.
J- Yeah, I like to ask this question in coaching: What is under your control here? Because societal beliefs about women-owned businesses are not within our control. But there are a lot of things that are within our control as women who ran businesses, in terms of the way we set things up.
W- Exactly like rates and boundaries, building your own confidence with what you're offering, and beyond.
J- Yeah, for me, I think this comes down to the fact that I've experienced definitely overt sexism, in terms of the types of stories I get assigned, or how people react to the knowledge that I am a mother or that I spend part of my time taking care of a child. I remember, I got some bad comments when I was pregnant about oh, you're never going to come back to work, you don't take this seriously. So I ended up like hiding my pregnancy from a lot of clients, because I didn't want to be taken less seriously, the last time around when I was pregnant. So I do know some men who have a ton of competence and are getting paid more. But it is also true that I know a lot of badass women, especially in this media industry, especially those who are running their own businesses. And my advice here is to surround yourself with those people and support them too. I don't want to be in a space where I'm treated poorly. And so I'm going to choose really specifically to be surrounded by people who are empowering, and who are helping me build the business that I want. It's why we started this podcast. So you know, I keep my eyes open for opportunities to educate people, I have very firm boundaries around what I will and won't tolerate, about how I will and will not be talked to. And I think that's where for me, I feel like I have a choice, is in deciding who I'm working with and setting boundaries. And I think also there's control in raising our voices, whenever possible about how these things do need to be made better for women and minorities. That's part of our our mission with TWC.
W- Yeah, yes. This is a really big reason why we started this podcast, I think we have a review somewhere that's like, wow, two women talking about money. It's incredible. And we do get that reaction a lot. We didn't expect these conversations to feel revolutionary. But we know that they do feel that way for some of our listeners.
J- Yep. And I will also say many grants support this podcast because we are women-owned and minority focused. So many of our partners, including the podcast we featured today, is run by a woman. So we really do curate these opportunities super carefully. We use this platform to speak to empowerment and choice for everyone, especially women, especially people of color. That matters, I think.
W- Yeah, and for me, the big thing is the honesty and transparency, because without that, the power stays in the hands of the people who create these limiting beliefs, honestly.
J- Yeah. So I think our answer to this question is, first of all, is this belief theirs or yours? And then figure out a way to flex your muscles, your control muscles? Where do you have control? I know for us, Wudan, we're not going to shut up about money and empowering freelancers, right? Like that is what we do. But also, this is about boundary setting. I guess everything is about boundary setting and choosing the environments you put yourself in so you can protect yourself.
W- Alright, let's finish with two quick questions, Jenni. So the first one says: I have an idea. I'm really excited about. How long between emailing publishers should I wait to pitch the same idea?
J- So I'm not pitching very much these days, but I will simul-pitch something if it's like incredibly newsy, meaning I will pitch an idea to two places/three places at once if it needs to go out really soon. And if not, then I will pitch to one place. And then I will check in after a week and then I will check in after two weeks. And then I will let them know that I'm taking the idea elsewhere. I don't know. What about you again?
W- Yeah, I think it depends on the idea for sure. And how much I want to write for my first choice publication. So simil-pitching for time sensitive stuff, whether there's a news hook or something is about to happen is spot on. I think it's rude for an editor to sit on anything timely for more than two days. You know, we operate in a free market. So if nobody said yes yet I'm going to be selling it around.
J- Yeah, that makes total sense. I'm with you.
W- Okay, Jenni, last question. What's a piece of advice you used to share that you no longer believe in? Why did you change your mind about that advice?
J- That's a good question. So, I have been thinking a lot lately about how previously, I recommended the hustle, maybe not directly, but indirectly, like by example, and also the six figure Ffeelancer lifestyle,. Epecially when I started freelancing, I advocated for it,.I advise people about how to get there, I believed that it was the definition of success, to be working a lot to be super productive, to be super efficient to make a lot of money. And I felt like that was the way to build towards sustainability in freelancing was by making a lot. And then I had a kid and a bad pregnancy in the middle of a pandemic. And I realized that perhaps I had been naive in suggesting that hustle was possible for everybody, right? Like I hadn't had a full understanding of what it really is like to deal with having so many constraints on your time, and also dealing with mental health issues, sickness, all sorts of things that are not within our control. And so that changed things a lot for me. And I think asking people to always hustle ,always grow, always chase down new work, Ii just kind of ignores the fact that some seasons in our life are not hustle seasons,Sometimes you're just surviving. And if I could go back, I guess I'd present the six figure freelancing as an option, kind of like we did in our last episode about six figure freelancing. But it would also talk more about other slow growth, more sustainable approaches to freelancing as well. This is where my interest definitely lies now. So I'm really fascinated by passive revenue and why I like working with people who are parents are dealing with some of these constraints. Let's hack this model a little bit and have it not just be about working as hard as we possibly can. So it's about that cliche of work smarter, not harder, but I think it's true. So my identity was ultimately really tied to working hard and being super productive. And that's the mode I coached in. That's the mode I mentored in, that's the mode I showed up to the world in. And ultimately, that mode does not serve everybody, especially now, especially in a pandemic. And I just think I know now that success can look like so many different things. So that's mine. What about you down? What, what has changed for you? What advice have you given in the past that you would no longer give
W- Yeah, I very frequently have conversations with freelancers and talks about diversifying their income. And for the record, I never tell people how they should diversify their business. I pose it as a thing to do, because it's what I've been taught. And it's what I've done, that hasn't left me hanging on the rope. When new cycles change, publishers closed overnight, VCs changed their mind and the needs of the industry change. So some people who I work with as coaching clients, let's call them purists, people who want only to do journalism, are pretty uncomfortable with this idea of diversifying, and some people just straight up hate doing anything corporate. Other people just love to write and they feel pressure to diversify, because they might hate things like editing, or research or managing content or whatever else. What I've noticed in my own business is that the longer that I do this, actually, the fewer clients I have. And that's to say I started with a lot. Like in 2020, I think I had 30 Plus, so many of these clients are recurring clients, they're people who I trust and who really trust me, and who are consistently giving me work. And at the same time, no significant part of my income depends on them, which is really what I mean about diversification. But I think how diversification gets framed and freelancing, like a constant thing can be really misleading. Because like you said, Jenni, career freelancers are working towards a place of sustainability. And there's no forever pressure to have a dozen clients, or dozens. In fact, a more streamlined business is one that is just diversified enough for you. And I think that's the point that gets buried a lot when I talk to freelancers about building this element of their business.
J- Mm hmm. I agree with that. I think sometimes I just want to yell like, "What would it look like to relax?" We've talked about this in some episodes this season, but it feels spot on. So I think that is a good note to end this episode on. If you haven't already, please join us on Patreon for our membership community. And if you haven't rated this podcast or reviewed it on iTunes, please do. We would also love to meet you in The Writers' Co-op Slack channel. That's part of our All Access $9 A month Patreon membership. And we also still get really excited when we get emails or DMS about your learnings, especially at the end of the year. Like, how has this podcast helped you? What takeaways do you have? So you can always feel free to reach out if you have things you want to share.
W- Thanks for listening, everyone, and we hope that you'll enjoy your holidays.
J- See you soon, Wudan.
W- Bye Jenni. Season Four of The Writers’ Co-op is made possible by you, our listeners. The Writers’ Co-op is co hosted and written by me, Wudan Yan and Jenni Gritters. Our producer is Jen Monnier and our editor is Susan Valot.
