Creating a Sustainable Business Structure

SEASON 4, EPISODE 5:

In this episode, we address a topic that freelancers don’t talk about enough: getting to a place of neutrality and sustainability in your business. Many of you who follow the podcast may remember Wudan talking (a lot!) about burnout earlier this year. Suddenly, she felt like there wasn’t much more space for her to grow as a freelancer. She was already writing for the publishers who could get her stories to a broader audience. She was already earning six figures. Publishers believed in the big stories she wanted to pursue. She panicked: there wasn’t an obvious next, so where should she even go? Wudan's therapist challenged her to stay in this space. And honestly, she's been here since summer - and her business has felt much more sane since. She's still working on projects she cares about, and with good people. She's still more or less hitting her financial goals. She's here, feeling the space, and getting in tune and enjoying what she's created for herself. Freelancers rarely talk about sustainability, maybe because it can feel like the antithesis of growth. At the same time, we can grow into a place of sustainability which means we get both sides of the coin. That’s what this episode is about. How do you think about sustainability in your freelance business? What boundaries have you set to make it sustainable?

Full Transcript Below:

Jenni- Hi everybody and welcome to The Writers' Co-op. 

Wudan- We are your co hosts. 

J- I'm Jenni.

W- And I'm Wudan. So before we get into it today, I wanted to let you know that our episode today is sponsored by OutVoice, which has a focus that we can get behind. Too often, freelancers are spending months, years, tracking down overdue, unpaid invoices. OutVoice fixes that. It's the only freelance management system built for publishing by freelancers. How does this work? OutVoice empowers publishers by using automation and CMS integration to improve freelance management and invoicing. So contributors are paid instantly. Let me repeat that. It's not a typo: instantly, with the same click of a button that publishes their work. No need to generate an invoice. And this saves everyone time and money. So publishers love OutVoice as much as freelancers. So right now, InStyle, Foreign Policy, FanByte, Clickhole, Adweek have all moved on to this system, and OutVoices working with some of the biggest publishing companies as well. So the next time you see someone struggling with a broken invoicing system, or the next time your client pays you late, tell them to visit outvoice.com and leave all their headaches in the past. So if you're interested in joining them on their mission to fix this consistent industrywide issue about payment for good, follow them on Twitter @outvoicepay.

J- I have to say, we're pretty picky about who we let sponsor our episodes on The Writers' Co-op, but OutVoice was a definite no-brainer. They're making the freelance world a better place. And as everybody knows, we are pushy and very much believe that freelancers should be paid on time. So you should definitely check them out and join their movement. So what's up, Wudan?

W- You know, it's the end of the year. Sprinting. Just wrapped up a draft of a story I've almost spent six years on so, you know, there are feelings. I'm tired. I'm proud of having, you know, stuck with it without going broke. And just generally a lot of anxiety around the story. So you know, there's that.

J- Yeah, six years. That's just wild. That's a huge undertaking. And I can't wait to read the story. I feel like I've heard a lot about it for the past few years that we've known each other.

W- Yeah. So that's me, Jenni. What about you?

J- Yeah. Wanna hear about a failed experiment? 

W- Yeah. 

J- Okay. So as you know, I opened up my coaching schedule in October. Like I just blew the doors wide open, and tons of people enthusiastically arrived and scheduled themselves for sessions. It was fantastic. It was also way too much. Like some days, I would literally have five or six coaching calls. So I guess I shouldn't say that this was a failed experiment, because it was just an experiment. But it showed me that things about the schedule don't work for me. And that there are things that also do work for me, but it gave me a lot of good information.

W- Oh my god. a) first of all, I'm excited to our listeners. We are going to have an episode about overbooking ourselves. But also, Jenni, tell us: what are you going to do about this?

J- Yeah, I like need this episode on overbooking myself. What happened is I hired a coach to help me streamline things. It was a very lucrative month for me. But the reality is that the pace of it is just not sustainable. So I have realized I just can't take everyone in a one to one coaching format, long term. Like I just am going to need to refine that strategy. My coach is always talking about a one to one strategy or a one to many strategy. And so I'm trying to shift my business model to a one to many strategy. What does that mean? It means fewer video calls, God bless. And more group coaching. And I'm also exploring options like a newsletter, or an e-book or places where people can get insight from me, without me needing to speak to them one on one on a call. The reality is that I am not in a hustle season in my life, as much as maybe my brain would like me to be like. My reality is not that I have a small child, he keeps getting sick, I need flexibility, my husband doesn't have flexibility in his job. So I actually really do need to focus on work that's more flexible. So the the long and short of this is that I am actually going to add back in some more writing work and not eliminate my coaching offerings in 2022. But definitely sort of refine them and shrink them down.

W- This is interesting though, because you went out there set up this experiment opened up the opportunity and then things happen and you learned. All this reminds me, too, of all the reasons that I got a coach, because sometimes we need help leveling up and seeing our options.

J- Exactly. I felt like I had like all the puzzle pieces in front of me on a table but I needed someone to suggest different ways to organize them. I am only one brain, right? So I think coaching is oftentimes about refinement and brainstorming anf getting more ideas. And that is what I'm doing. So by the time this episode is on the airwaves, I will also be in the midst of that refinement and then preparing for a few weeks off during the holidays, which I think will also help because I get a lot of good ideas when I'm not working.

W- Woo! More time off, more time off.

J- More time off. We need an episode where we yell about that. We kind of do, in the first season we kind of have one about vacation. But on to the show this week. Let's let's dig in.

W- Yeah Jenni, what are we talking about?

J- Today we're going to talk about plateauing. And I know, this was actually your idea Wudan. I guess we could also call it holding in place or not making big changes to your business.

W- Yeah, this might come as a shock to some of our listeners, since we literally just spent episodes discussing ways to level up, whether it's to earn more money, develop skills or services, negotiate more earn six figures, whatever.

J- Yeah, but it's worth saying that growth, I think, gets framed in the freelance world as like a constant and required thing.

W- Yes, there's always something next, whether it's upping your rates, pitching another story, figuring out another arm of your business.

J- Yeah, and I think what we don't talk about often is achieving a steady pace. And so that's what today's episode is gonna be about, which I'm really stoked to dig into.

W- Yeah, for some reason, we don't talk about this, because, you know, the hustle, I guess.

J- Yeah, I think it's a little bit countercultural right to say: Oh, actually, like my business how it is I'm gonna hold in place. So Wudan, like I said, this episode was your idea. So do you want to share a little bit about what inspired it?

W- Yeah, so I've spoken about this publicly. But since day one of the pandemic and the world shutting down, also my world shutting down, I've been recovering from burnout. So when my work that involved travel dried up for the first few weeks, my brain went very quickly into scarcity mode. And I overworked myself covering COVID. And there was so much work with COVID. And I kept doing it because I felt like it was my obligation that people got good news. And there's so much about ego and morals and journalism wrapped up in that to unpack and identity as well. But anyway, that's how I justified to myself that I couldn't stop working. And I quickly burnt out. So in June of 2020, my husband was basically telling me that he wasn't having fun with me. Because I was so exhausted from work, I could hardly have a conversation after we both put away our computers. So I hired a therapist with the goal of bringing me back from the burnout ledge. I had so so much work to do on breaking the cycle. And I've talked a lot about that online, the steps that I took, so part of it was taking more time off, giving myself permission to be off, like not at my computer. And another part was detaching myself from my identity, that being a journalist wasn't just what I did, it also was who I was. So the TLDR is that I've spent a lot of time unpacking my burnout, getting out of it for the last year and a half and getting my business to a stable place where I'm just earning the money that I want, taking the time off, working on things here and there that I still care about. So I was basically looking for a place of sustainability. And in doing that, I found a little plateau. So more recently, my therapist introduced the idea of neutrality to me, which was revolutionary. And it means that I'm not bored or necessarily complacent about my work. And I'm also not actively moving forward either. So the way that I visualize this is like being on a floaty, bobbing in a lake during the summer, you're just maintaining balance and like enjoying it. And of course, I'm probably sipping a margarita. So honestly, neutrality is a super freakin weird place for me to be because I've never been there before. So this past March, I stopped writing COVID studies, I put it on Twitter to basically like, if you're an editor never come with me with a COVID story, full stop. It was too much for me to keep up with a new cycle. It turns out and I just started working on longer term things.

J- Yeah, you know, I remember during our business retreat last year, you were right in the midst of dealing with this. And I remember we were hiking up the hill to Lava Butte in Oregon, and we were talking about is it possible to not be achieving something aggressively? Because this is really counterintuitive for both of us, I think. And then if yes, like if you're not achieving something aggressively, how would you measure success around that? I know it is a big issue that both of us grapple with and a lot of other people do too. And I think you're right that it has a lot to do with decoupling your identity from work and also asking what is the long game here like not being in such a rush to get there, I think.

W- Agreed and lol at the irony of talking about the next thing and maybe also aggressively hiking up a hill aggressively.

J- Yeah. I know. Ann Freeman also talks about wanting to build a business that would last for 20 years, not 2. And I like this idea, right? She's not always focused on hustling or an ambitious grind. It's about a sustainable pace. And what I'm hearing you say, Wudan, is that you grew your business by changing your pace, from sprint to longer term projects. Like counterintuitively, your growth involved slowing down.

W- Yes, that's correct. So Jenni, tell me about how you think about your business and sustainability.

J- Yeah, it's interesting that we're recording this episode right now. Because I think I go back and forth between seasons of hustle, which I would call very, like outward approval, industry standard growth and seasons of creative growth, which are much more inward. So right now I'm coming off a month of hustle. Like I said, that honestly felt very bad in my body, because I was craving more inner focus and a slower pace. But I was tied to this faster pace that I had put into play in October. So for me, especially because I'm raising a young child, I'm very conscious of my energy and it being finite on any given day. And I often think about how the biggest growth moments for me in my business and in my life aren't actually about stepping forward and pushing. Usually, for me, the hardest thing to do is step back and settle in and settle down. Like even the word settle is like a little gross to me. So finding a sustainable pace, and then sitting in it for a while without making changes. That's hard for me, it's really hard. To be honest, last spring and summer, were like that. I don't feel like I was striving. I was making enough. Not an ambitious amount. I liked the work I was doing. I wasn't obsessed with it. But I didn't hate it. And I just had a lot of time to play. Like I would sit in the hammock in the backyard. And I would go hiking and I would explore and I was doing creative things. And that time period, I think back on it a lot because it felt really good. And I would say that was sustainable.

W- Yeah. I like what you said about growth for you looking like staying in one place, versus sprinting and changing everything all the time. And increasingly, I think that's true for me, too. So what we're really both saying is that getting to a plateau in your business is not necessarily a bad thing.

J- I think this is really counter intuitive. I think it's because it's maybe anti-corporate, which is almost like anti-American, right? As a freelancer, the culture is telling you, hustle. I think this plays into last episode six figure conversation, big time. There's a lot of pressure to go go go, make the money, achieve the things. And I will say I am working with a coaching client right now who has achieved incomparable freelance writing success in a very short period of time. And yet she is so frickin tired. Like she's exhausted. She doesn't have time for anything she loves. The other day, she was like, I just want to take a shower when I asked her what she needed time for. So our goal in working together has really been: let's swap out your clients, slow you down a bit so you have fewer clients. You're making a little more, but also find a pace that you could sustainably run at. It's like a long-game pace. Because what she's doing now is just not that. It's not that. It can't last.

W- Honestly, there are days where I need a shower too, because I just haven't had time. 

J- Yeah, yep, it's real. It's so real. 

W- So we're just here to give you permission that you can stop growing in your business for a second. In fact, it's really freakin exhausting to be always in growth mode. And if you're in a good place, what we're saying is two things. One, get some awareness around why a certain pace of work is working for you. And then two, enjoy it. Stay there for a while. And it may be a little uncomfortable at first, but honestly, isn't everything? And not to mention, you can be in neutrality with some aspects of your life, like work, and growing in other parts of your life, like in your partnership, friendships, hobbies and other skills. It's okay to coast.

J- Yeah, I love that. I'm like imagining coasting downhill, and you've done all the work to like, bike up it, right? Like that's so pleasant. And there are definitely seasons to every element in your life. Like sometimes your work is blooming because you're inspired and you want to spend a ton of energy in that direction. You want to grow. And then other times I think life pulls you in another way where you want to hibernate, you want to just kind of chill for a little bit. I think having the flexibility to see that and be where you are and chill out if you need to is really one of the most important skills we can grow as freelance business owners.

W- Agreed. So with this frame in mind, this anti-hustle forever mindset if you will, I would love to talk about what makes a business sustainable. Jenni, what do you think?

J- A big aspect for mme, the first one that comes to mind probably because we both love this aspect ,is taking time off.

W- Yeah. Plus 100 billion thousand.

J- We've said it so many times, but I think time off is really recharging. It's impossible to power through work forever, week on week, you know if especially if you're working weekends. And I think for me time off is what allows me to feel free and flexible. It's like a big reason why I work for myself. And it does give me perspective on my business.

W- For sure. I agree. So how do you think about taking vacation?

J- Yeah, for me, and I think for you too, vacation is baked into my business strategy upfront. So this year, I will have taken 12 weeks of vacation, maybe more, but that's three months off, basically. And I'm working like 25 hours a week. So my monthly income goals reflect that. And what I'm doing is basing what I want to make for the year on those nine working months, not the 12 full months, so it adjust my monthly income goals a little bit and then when I take time off, I don't feel guilty about it. Like I already have money in the bank to pad that. I have talked about this on Twitter, but I am also just very, super communicative about my time off. So my clients expect it. They aren't surprised. In fact, I think usually they're very jealous. I block the time on my calendar so that I myself cannot rob myself of vacation. You know, I can't take an assignment that would fall into those windows. So yeah, I would say I'm fiercely protective of my time off because it matters to me so much. And sometimes when I'm feeling fried, I will step in and actually put a bunch of days proactively on my calendar midweek. Think like, you know what, a random Wednesday. And I think those days are actually necessary for reflection as well, especially if I'm really burnt out. I'm just really super aware of keeping those boundaries in place and not moving them because they serve me. What about you, Wudan? How do you think about your vacation?

W- Oh, man. So my therapist, burnout coach, said that basically everything great that we want to enjoy we're socialized is bad, and that we should feel guilty: vacation, sex, food, the list goes on. So generally speaking, my concept of how much time I need off has changed every year. And frankly, I've been bad at updating my business plan to account for it. But somehow, the math still seems to work out. I'm going to have to revisit it for this coming year. But in short, I work a four day week, I'm not working more than 30 hours. And one of those work days, I am not on any calls. I need about five days off every month. And I want to be taking at least one week off every quarter. So this year, I took about six weeks off during the summer with a continual three and a half week chunk. And then in the winter, I will also take a month off. And I've taken other sporadic weeks off throughout the course of the year. I don't know what it maps out to. Honestly, it's more than three months of vacation a year. So like you, Jenni, I'm really trying to make my income in nine months, if not less, which is always a fun puzzle.

J- I think there's occasionally chatter about how freelancers don't take vacation, because we always have to work. But it's like you can plan your business for this, right? You can plan for these vacation needs. You don't have to start with three months, you can start with like three weeks. But it's still something you can build in. So the question to me is really like, are we going to live to work? Or are we going to work to live?

W- Yeah, the answer feels obvious to me at this point.

J- Yeah, I agree with you. So Wudan, tell me, how else do you think about sustainability in your business.

W- So very early on, I think season one of this podcast, when we talked about finding work, I introduced the concept of rotating stability, which is having a bunch of clients who I already have established rapport with who I can call on if I need to fill in something in my work schedule. So I think this is how I ended up with like, 30-some clients last year. But good news, I did some reckoning moving into 2021 and let some of those clients go slowly. So every so often, when I need to fill gaps in income, I reach out to some of those clients the month before, asking if they have anything they want my help on. Again, nobody knows when I'm available all the time. It's impossible to keep track of. You got to ask for what you want. So that's how I think about, you know, managing my clients to make sure I still have work and money coming in. So Jenni, you do something similar. What do you like to say in those reach out emails?

J- Yeah. So even though I'm doing more coaching now, I still have, I would say, four or five rotating, stable writing clients who will bring work to me or who I check-in with. This is really key for that coasting mentality. Because if you're trying to restart your client list from scratch every month, I don't think coasting is super possible. So every month isn't a clear slate for me, is what I'm saying. It's less of a lift to find work. I already know that, you know, I guess we're our own anchor client now, Wudan, with The Writers' Co-op. But I already know there's about $4,000 a month of income that I can count on that's predictable. And I'll see a clear spot in my calendar. Usually I look about six weeks ahead. So if I see an empty spot, I'll like reach out to one of those clients who I remind and I just say via email: Hey, I hope you're doing well. I loved working together on the previous assignment. I'm looking at December, I'm looking at January, I have a space that I could help with a project. Is there anything that you need? 

W- How does that turn out? 

J- Yeah, I think usually it's pretty good. Like, sometimes they'll have something immediately. Although I'll say sometimes they don't, they might book me out for something like three months down the line. But either way, it pads my calendar. And I think even if they don't have something available that moment, it at least jogs their memory of who I am. And I'll say, I've been working with these clients for a couple years. So I think it's not like I have to prove myself, they just they're like, Oh yeah, Jenni would be great for this. So I would say, even if they don't have something for me right away, oftentimes, I'll get an email a couple weeks later, offering me an assignment. And I think, just speaking to that sustainability aspect, it adds an element of predictability. It's like the opposite of hustle that is really soothing to my business overall.

W- Yes. And I think having this rotation for me has to do with the fact that it's rare for your clients to always have work for you. Again, seasons. One of my institutional writing clients only has worked for me in about like the first half to three quarters of the year. So it's something I mentally account for when I think about reaching out to them. 

J- Yeah, for sure. That makes a lot of sense. 

W- And I think along with this: sustainability for me is having, you know, one client giving you regular work too. So I do quite a bit of fact-checking for one podcast production network. And when I'm booked for fact-checking a season, I basically have a steady stream of money that's coming in over a couple of months. And it benefits me because that also becomes money I no longer have to hustle for.

J- Yeah, that's a great relationship to have. I think it's like, you know, it's a client who continues to give you work, where there's basically no mental lift for you in finding that work. It's a true anchor client. And like I said, I think this podcast in the same way has also become our anchor client with that predictable, reliable, patterned energy.

W- Yeah, it's definitely turned into that. Jenni, what else does sustainability look like for you?

J- So there's also an element for me of not having a business that causes me emotional unrest or drama. So basically, no asshole clients, you know. I want to love the people I'm working with and find value in the work and in the relationship.

W- 100%. I'm screaming.

J- It's just too much emotional energy, I think, to work with clients, at least for me, who are micromanagy, who are gonna pay me late, who lose my invoices, who give me mean edits—like the whole thing. I just, I think I've reached a point in my career where I just am no bullshit about this. Like, I'm very picky about who my clients are. Because I've learned that I really value my peace most of all. And having people around me who constantly put me on an emotional roller coaster is not something I can maintain. It bleeds into my life. The cost is like, yeah, way too high for me.

W- Oh my god, I cannot agree more.

J- Yeah, I know. You're the same way.

W- Mm hmm. Yeah. So Jenni, what tips do you have on avoiding bad clients?

J- Honestly, I think for me, this comes down to my intuition. I can tell pretty fast if someone isn't going to be a good fit. Because I have clear boundaries, they overstep them, bye. You know, I think that there are other ways to suss this out, though. Like, my intuition is pretty chiseled at this point. So it kicks in pretty fast. But you can also talk to your colleagues. If someone else has worked for a client, I will usually ask them about their experience. I think this happens a lot in The Writers' Co-op Slack channel, just like what was it like to work with them? How would you rate them? What was difficult? That information can be really good to have when you're onboarding someone new.

W- Yeah, I think one really clear obvious thing to me is if I have my work hours in my email signature, which I do, and somebody is suggesting a call outside of those working hours, yeah... Where's the red flag emoji when you need it? But I'm, you know, a fan of small tests like that. And yeah, plus one to TWC Slack. The freelancers grapevine is a pretty interesting place to be.

J- Yeah, I also recently wrote up a rulebook for my business like: This is what I stand for. This is what's cool with me. This is what's not cool with me. Some of my clients will do this, they'll call it like, their F-it list, or I have people who've decorated an actual book. So you know, it's just nice to sometimes have those rules handy to measure up against if a client is pushing those boundaries. Like I said, like, trying to get me to do five revisions or sending mean edits or trying to call me or something, or text me, you know. All these things I am just not into that. That's a no. Are they trying to schedule calls with me in random evenings? Are they pinging me on edits, when I've told them I'm taking a day off? All of that is just not a fit for me in terms of my sustainable long game business. And it's not just about the emotions, it also cost me time, which cost me money. So that is a big thing for me. That's on the no list.

W- Yeah, I don't take calls on Fridays. Anyone who tries to push for a call on Friday is automatically on my red list. And I'm also really wary of clients who are like Oh my God, we are paying you so much. No, that's gaslighting. And of course there are industry rates and all that. And at the same time, I am defining my own rates based on my business and life needs. I'm not sticking with industry standards. A lot of the time, that doesn't work for me.

J- Yep, I totally agree. So is there anything else that you look for in terms of red flag clients, Wudan?

W- I am quick to fire clients who don't trust me, clients who change their vision of things during the course of a project. Clients who give me feedback that make me feel like shit. When I think about sustainability, I think about like you said, Jenni, expending as little emotional energy as possible. And again, I'm not saying that work shouldn't be work. But emotional labor absolutely feels like the most taxing form of work for me.

J- Yep, exactly. So I feel like we should talk about this question. How do you fire a client?

W- I mean, I think it's okay to disappear into the ethers. I have absolutely done that. I've also told clients, my business priorities have changed. And I won't have capacity to help with this starting in, say, quarter three, let me know if I can help wrap anything up by then or refer people to you or something to that effect.

J- Yeah, that's usually my line, like my availability is now limited. And this isn't a great fit for me anymore. Or, you know, nothing super long winded or emotional. Occasionally, if a client was a good fit, and then they become less of a good fit, I will also let those clients go. So I think that's also important to say that, like, as your needs change, what allows for a sustainable business for you might also change in terms of who your clients are.

W- Yeah, I agree. So what else, Jenni, anything else?

J- Yeah, the last thing that comes to mind for me is that a sustainable business is one that aligns with my values. And I know we've talked about this in past episodes, like in the very first episode, I think this is what we talked about. But to me values alignment is super key. So if I value freedom, and I'm in a business where I feel trapped, that is not a sustainable, long game for me at all.

W- Yeah, this is, I think, one of our first modules of even our business planning course, which we'll link to in the show notes, which may feel counterintuitive, because business planning seems like revenue goals and all that stuff. But if you haven't ever done work to identify your values, which is, you know, in shorthand of what you care about, it could be really helpful to figure out what that means for a business that works for you over the long term.

J- Yeah, this is so important to me. I think, too, that there's something in here about decoupling your identity from your work. That's the last thing I want to say. So like, I can't say that I have managed to do this, but it's something I'm working on in therapy, and with my coaches. So Wudan, I know you've been deep in this topic, both reporting and personally. So how do you think about this? I've noticed that you've started to say that you do journalism instead of being a journalist. So tell me about that.

W- Yeah, I'm laughing over here, because I just filed a story about this. I'll post it on the bird app, the internet, once it's up. But the working title is in short, journalism isn't who you are, it's what you do. So the idea is that we are human beings living in this big, big world who are doing things. This is not an outdoor voices ad, we're just doing things. We're playing, we're exploring, we are creating. What is the verb that you would use to describe what it is that you're fundamentally doing? I started paying attention to that a lot more. So last winter, in the depths of the pandemic, I was on this group event, and the host introduced somebody else is a journalist. And this woman corrected him and was like, well, sort of, but really, I commit acts of journalism. And I was like, whoa. So in the beginning of this episode, I talked about, you know, how my commitment to the truth was so tied into why I kept saying yes to work in early COVID days. And that commitment is in line with the principles of journalism, but it's also I learned a principle by which I live my life.

J- This is so interesting. How do you think this identity thing helps with sustainability in your business?

W- Well, I can separate the two suddenly. Like, I am not my work and my work is not me. And that really helps set up boundaries. So again, what I do for work isn't all encompassing, and I'm not dropping everything to do something because the public needs whatever information I think they need. Time constraints, boundaries, I don't work nine to five. More like 8:30 to 3:00 with a bunch of built in brakes because my dog is active. There's regularity and routine and predictability in my schedule. I started saying no to certain types of work that very clearly burn me out, such as fast turnaround stringing. I started saying yes to things that have a longer burn, which ironically stopped burning me out.

J- I agree with you. I think, you know, when my business defines me when it is like the key defining factor of my life, then every up and down feels more personal. I'm at risk. There's more at stake. But if it is just something that I do, and I have a full life beyond my work, and I believe I'm contributing in a lot of ways, then my business is just one piece of the puzzle. Like, yeah, there's just less at stake. And it feels like I can't play a sustainable long game, to be honest without that piece. Like, I can't live in panic for like 10 years while running a business if I feel every day like I'm at risk, right? So I'm really just building a business that helps to support my life, is the honest truth. I like to work. I do. But I also like a lot of other things that are not work. So yeah. Would you have any other sustainability thoughts before we finish out this episode?

W- I mean, I think the last one is about money.

J- Yes. You know, I love the money talk. What do you mean?

W- I love it. Yeah. I mean, you know, thinking about how much money you need for your life. Right? And at what level of freelance earnings does that make you feel like your life is sustainable?

J- Yeah, this is a really good question. We talked about this a little bit in the six figures episode. But when I started, I was aiming for like 6 to 8k a month. And then I would consistently hit 10 to 12k a month, and then I had a newborn, I was back to six. And now I'm looking at sort of like six to eight as a reasonable goal again, for me. And I think it's because when I'm making about 8k a month, I don't feel over busy. But I feel like I'm making a difference. I feel like my days are full. And things are interesting. So when I look at it quarterly now, instead of judging on a monthly basis too it actually feels more holistic to me. And then, like we've talked about in past episodes, that number, that financial number is on a list of questions for me, also with a lot of other things in my life. So when I get to the end of the month, the question is, did I make enough? But also, did I take care of myself? Did I go outside? It's a whole picture look at what the money does for me. So basically, I think what I'm saying is like, what I need to make changes based on the season that I'm in and what my husband is doing for work and where we live. So I guess, for me the number that I map out to in terms of a sustainable life and what I sustainably want to bring in. It's somewhere between 75 and 100k, depending on the year. And this allows me to take vacations, save a lot into my retirement accounts, which is a big goal of mine right now, work towards buying a house, and you know, funding the basics of our lives, like rent and food, too. And it's taken me a few years to land on kind of what would be sustainable for me too. So what about you, Wudan? What feels sustainable for you?

W- Yeah, so I have basically figured out that low six figures is the minimum I'd want to earn in order to max out my Roth and contribute, you know, another $10,000, if not more to my general investments. Contrary to the person I thought I was, I actually want to retire. I also live in a really expensive city and I have expensive hobbies, admittedly. Yarn is expensive. Gear for climbing is expensive. So you know, another part of my sustainability is constantly patrolling the perimeter of my boundaries and checking with clients and making sure that they are paying me enough.

J- Yes, I think it's okay to be expensive. I think the more expensive I am, honestly, the better my work turns out to be.

W- Yes. And again, if you're looking to level up in terms of income, check out our previous episode on the six figure freelancer and leveling up on how to identify clients who can pay what you deserve. '

J- Yep, I love it. 

W- Alright, so to recap, freelance businesses are not about constant growth. It's really really, really okay to not constantly grow, you can build your business to a place you're proud of and just enjoy it.

J- Yeah, we talked about a number of ways today too to make your freelance business sustainable if it doesn't feel that way already. So essentially, the goal is to get you to that place where you can just coast for a little bit. So some of those ideas are building in substantial vacation days time for rest, finding a stable of good clients who don't make you want to blow your brains out, who you don't have to fire, decoupling your identity from work, keeping your values in mind so that what you're doing aligns with what you care about, and making enough money to sustain your life, both now and in the years ahead, when you want to retire.

W- We would love to hear from you on how you've thought about sustainability in your business. What's your long game?

J- You can tweet us at TWC_pod. We will also continue this conversation in our Slack channel, which you can join if you're not a Patreon member now. You can join us at any time. Or you can write us an email at thewriterscoop2@gmail.com And don't forget today's episode was sponsored by OutVoice. You can join the movement to push for net now payment for all freelancers, hell yes, by following them on Twitter @outvoicepay.

W- So finally, if you enjoy our show, remember to rate and review it. It helps us be more visible.

J- Okay, Wudan. I am out of here.

W- Same, Jenni. Talk to you next time. 

J- Bye. 

W- Season four of The Writers' Co-op is made possible by you, our listeners. The Writers' Co-op is co-hosted and written by me, Wudan Yan and Jenni Gritters. Our producer is Jen Monnier and our editor is Susan Valot.