Redefine Freelance Success with Joanne Machin
SEASON 7, EPISODE 1
Welcome to Season 7 of the Writers’ Co-op! To kick off the season, we wanted to dedicate our first episode to a word that often shapes how we view both work and ourselves: success.
We usually believe success is measured by hitting societally-defined milestones or accumulating fame or wealth. But what happens when our personal goals differ from what others expect from us? And what constitutes success when our values and milestones are constantly changing? How can we ultimately come up with a new framework of success for ourselves?
Wudan digs into these questions with guest host Joanne Machin.
Joanne is a freelance editor, romance writer, virtual assistant and coach based out of the Pacific Northwest. You can follow her on Twitter here.
Joanne talks more about different ways to redefine success in your life and gives advice on how to ensure you’re working toward your goals.
Full Transcript Below:
Wudan Yan - Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Writers' Co-op. I'm your host and executive producer, Wudan Yan. If you've listened to the show for a while, you probably know that Jenni, who hosted this with me over the last few years, resigned at the end of last season. So going forward, you'll have me. But not just me. In true co-op fashion—that word is literally embedded in the name of our show—I'm excited to feature the voices and expertise of so many other creative small business owners who have really valuable insights to share. In this and future episodes, I will be joined with a co-host who will help me dig into one element of running a freelance business. Today, I'm particularly interested in talking about what it means to be a "successful freelance writer." I am sure you have seen these call outs before. People will be, like, looking for a successful freelancer for an event or conference or podcast. And now when I noticed those posts, I really can't help to ask: What metrics of success are they using to even assess whether or not somebody might be a fit? Success is such a weird and squishy concept, because there are two modes of it: one that is determined by others, by society, and another that you develop by yourself. Interestingly, the Merriam-Webster definition starts a bit vague. It first says it's a "degree or measure of succeeding," which really leaves the measure of success open to interpretation. But then the definition, the third definition that it lists is "the gaining of wealth, respect or fame," which fits into a more societal, external version of success. In other words, success, according to the dictionary, means that we have hit some kind of milestone. But here's the big question, though. What constitutes success when your values and milestones are constantly changing? When you and your life naturally change? And if societally-established types of success don't work for you, how do you define what success is for yourself, so you're not constantly feeling like you can't live up to really...whatever it is. Personally speaking, success has taken on many forms in my own writing and journalism career over the last nine years. Here's the Cliffs Notes version. In 2014, I quit a PhD program in the biomedical sciences to do journalism. Within three years of learning what I could from internships and whatever other random job opportunities I was given, I was landing prestigious fellowships and grants to pursue in-depth narrative and investigative projects. I published a web piece in The New Yorker, and many other national outlets, all within a few years of learning a new profession outside of a staff job. Lots of people approached me for advice, because I suppose, they perceived me as successful. And at the same time, I felt really unsettled. It was unsettling, because I was hardly down this new career path, and I had already begun checking these boxes. So to me, if I was already fitting into someone else's version of success, I feared being complacent. If success is a ladder we climb, what happens if you just shoot towards the top? What comes next? And if the answer is nothing, how do we continue to find meaning, primarily in our lives and secondarily, work? This episode is not going to be a philosophical exercise, I promise. I want to get practical, because success very obviously means different things to different people, and thus different freelancers, depending on their life, circumstances and identities. I'm really psyched to dig into success for small business owners with Joanne Machin. Joanne is somebody who has lived about nine lives, like a cat. And by nine lives, I just mean she's done a lot. She's seen a lot. She's worked in a lot of fields and professions. Right now. She's a freelance editor, a romance writer and a virtual assistant. And importantly, like me, she coaches—and I really wanted a coach for this episode—which means she's often helping others come up with their own visions of success. She's a great brainstormer on different ways to get clarity on what success is. And I really hope you will enjoy our conversation. Hi, Joanne, thanks so much for coming on the Writers' Co-op. It's a pleasure to have you here.
Joanne Machin: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to chat.
W- Yeah, I am really excited and intrigued by this concept of success lately, and I feel like you're a really good person to talk about it with me. But first, I think it would be great to hear about what led you into freelancing, and what kind of work do you do?
J- Yeah, I think that like a lot of people who go into freelancing, I picked it up because I wanted to make a little bit of pocket money. When I started freelancing, I wasn't really making enough money to like pay off my credit card debt and my student loans. I wanted a little bit of pocket money just so I felt, you know, comfortable spending an extra couple dollars on dinner and takeout and all of that. So I went into freelancing, at that point. I was really open to trying just literally anything that I could do asynchronously with my day job. I worked a nine to five in an office setting, so I had to find a freelance gig where I could do it either early in the morning or later at night. So I started as a content writer, because my background is English literature. I love writing. I love reading. And that was what I wanted to do later on, maybe make a living as a writer. Nowadays, I do a bunch of things. I call myself a multi-passionate entrepreneur. And I'm going to tell you, everything I do is going to sound like a lot.
W- Go for it.
J- Yeah, so I am a part-time bookseller at an independent bookstore here in the Pacific Northwest. That is what I call my day job, because I have to work that between very specific hours. Around my job as a bookseller, I'm also a virtual assistant. And I am also a freelance editor for mostly fiction writers. And outside of those two, I used to be part of a nonprofit board. And I also am an author.
W- Amazing. And you also do a bit of coaching.
J- Yes, I do a little bit of coaching. Through Embrace Change, I'm also an author coach. Sorry, I didn't mention that. I just—my list of things grows.
W- So Embrace Change is actually how you and I got connected. Because Cynthia Pong, the founder, was my business coach a few years ago, when I was going through a lot of business upheaval. And she got me so much clarity on how to manage my two businesses.
J- Yeah, Cynthia is really, really great. She is fantastic as an advisor, a strategist. So highly recommend y'all check her out.
W- It's really helpful to hear about all the different things that you do, because inherent in what you've described, and your story of what led you to freelancing, and all these different jobs that you've had, (and still have) I imagine that there are different metrics and definitions of success. But first, I want to go back. Growing up, what was your understanding of success? And who helped you form those impressions?
J- Yeah, that's a great question. So both of my parents are immigrants to the United States from China. And growing up, what they emphasized to me was, you really have to do good school. You have to do good in school, and you have to go to college. They didn't really prescribe, like, a specific pathway to me. But it's like very common in the Asian American community— like, you're gonna be an engineer or a doctor or a lawyer. Because those are what we—that's what we like, perceive as having a high-paying job. They didn't really ask me, like, what made you happy? Or, you know, what are you interested or passionate about? So it was really like, you have to get a job, because, you know, money is going to really create stability for you. And I think stability is what they didn't have. And that's what they wanted to give us. So of course, that's the pathway they set us up for. And so growing up, that's what my parents imprinted on me. Of course, growing up in the United States, there's also a different idea. There's an American dream, right? You immigrate here, you get a job, you get an education, you're going to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and you're going to achieve all these great things. And then here in America, of course, you're like climbing the corporate ladder. You are going to work in a nice office where you're going to have like your own cubicle somewhere. And then you're going to have a 401(k) and you have you know, good relationships with your workplace. And you're going to climb the corporate ladder, you're going to, you know, get promoted every X years, you're gonna have a white picket fence, you're gonna be married and have kids with your partner. That's what like, most Americans get the impression of what success is, and that's what's imprinted on us when we're growing up from the media and stuff around us. That's what I thought success was. I did work in a corporate job for a couple of years. I worked in a nonprofit for a couple of years. I did what I thought would make me happy and make a difference in the world and they had varying results. My impression of success nowadays is a little bit different than that.
W- Yeah, your immigrant story resonates with me, as my parents are also Chinese immigrants. And in listening to you tell your story, I hear you like checking off a lot of those boxes already, right?
J- Yeah.
W- Go to college. Work at a stable nine to five job that probably comes with time off—
J- Right
W- —benefits, health care, 401(k) match—
J- Exactly.
W- If there was a moment, when was it when you realized that these, like, conventional metrics of success didn't work for you anymore or didn't apply?
J- Yeah. So my first job out of college, I worked in a position where I got my housing for free as part of it. I lived on a college campus and that was like a great perk, right? Like, I don't have to pay rent, but I also wasn't getting paid enough money to pay off my debt, to pay off my credit card debt, to pay off my student loan. And so I was in the cycle of just like constantly being exhausted. And I was making a difference. I was doing the work I wanted to do: I was working in a student-facing position at a university where I got to develop relationships with students. I got to develop relationships with the people around me. It's really meaningful work, you know, I made an impact on the people around me. But I did that for a couple of years. I went into corporate for a couple years, you know, I was making enough money to live and be happy. I was in a position where, you know, I was able to, you know, buy presents for my mom, buy presents for the people around me during Christmas. And that was like a really meaningful thing to me, right, like being in a position where I could provide for people around me, but I was just in the cycle of being burnt out. I have a habit of overworking, mostly because that—I, like you, have a really strong work ethic. And I like doing work that makes me feel good about completing the work. And so I do a lot of work. And I was in these positions where I was working more than 40 hours a week. I would wake up feeling literally physically exhausted, and often also emotionally exhausted. But I was telling myself, you know, 'this is normal. I should probably just exercise more or eat better, or I should get more sleep,' you know. I was telling me things like, 'it's not my job, it's just me and my poor habits,' or whatever. And I just hit this crossroads in my career where I was working under a really terrible boss. And that was really like kind of where it came to head. Because I was working in a job where I would go to work, and I was exhausted, and I wasn't seeing a clear path ahead for myself. And then now I was going to a job where I wasn't only like, emotionally and physically exhausted, I was like, near tears, like, almost on an every other day basis. And I was like, 'this is enough for me.' I'm—like, I can't sacrifice my mental health and my emotional health just to be in a position where I have a 401(k) where I have insurance where I, you know, I have the kind of the facade of success and facade of looking like I have everything together. And so on a fateful day, in December, December right before the pandemic, I sent in my letter of resignation. I told my husband, 'I'm going to try freelancing for a few months while I'm job searching.' And he turned to me one day when I was like sending out applications—I was like, primarily looking at positions in human resources—and he was like, 'you're not going to be happy in a human resources position.' And if anybody knew me, you'd be—you'd look at me and be like, 'why did you think you'd be happy in human resources?' And looking back on that, it's a funny realization. So that was that crux where I was like this version of success, this like really corporate idea of like climbing ladder, wasn't working for me. And I knew I wasn't—I couldn't go back to a position like that, where I was expected to be very corporate America.
W- And it sounds like your definition pivoted towards something that was a little more self-serving, is that correct to say?
J- That's what I hope so. It was like a work in progress during that first year. Working for myself I was, of course, doing things that were like fulfilling and fun and interesting. There are things that I was good at. But that first year, I was like, still hustling. I was hustling a lot. And I made like an income goal at that year that was what I would consider to be successful, especially as like a first year as a freelancer, as a business owner. But I was also working like a lot. Even like—it's funny, because I think there's this quote, it's like 'freelancers are the only people on Earth who will quit a 40 week job working for someone to work 80 hours a week for themselves.' There's a quote that someone— I like, that was me. I like, I quit a job where I was working 40 hours a week for someone else in the office. And I just ended up working 60 hours a week for myself doing things that I chose to do. So during that first year, my definition of success was definitely still in flux.
W- Yeah, definitely. Tell me a little bit more about, you know, the career tracks that you're in now. My question here really is, are there versions of success in each of these tracks that maybe conflict with one another? I mean, one thing I see, in particular, especially in journalism, I would say, my primary industry or media generally, is that if you publish a book, or publish anything high-profile, there's a lot of praise for that, and like, 'oh, my gosh, so-and-so wrote for The New York Times.’ But that doesn't necessarily mean that the freelancer who wrote that New York Times piece is achieving financial wealth or some definition of financial success. So how have you seen these conflicts play out in your own careers? And how do you reconcile these conflicts?
J- Yeah, sure. I like to look at this on kind of a bigger picture, and I'll tell you about the freelancing part of my career as well as the book selling part of my career. Being a bookseller is really fantastic. I love books. I love reading. I love talking to people about books. I started in that path during the pandemic because I needed to get out of the house. So I was like—I applied to like a part-time retail job. It gets me out of the house. It gives me structure in my day, so that I have a good chunk of time where I'm out of the house. I have to structure the rest of my day around that kind of chunk of time. It's really a wonderful job. I love it. I love the bookselling community and the book community, but at the end of day, it's a retail job, and a retail job can only really get you so far up the retail career path. And I'm really cognizant of that. And I chose that job, again, because it is an interest of mine. It is a passion of mine. It is a job where I go to work at a specific time, I end my workday at a specific time, and I don't have to think about being a bookseller everywhere else. When I'm in that job, I'm really good at what I do. It's a really—for me—like, relatively easy thing to do. And I don't go to work and face like stress. It feels really light, it feels like something I go to do, and I'm energized by it in that specific timeframe. Outside of that—again, I work part time, that's a retail job, I get paid a very specific amount of money, as you would expect in retail. And then I think about that job stabilizing me so that I can be a little bit more experimental in my freelance work. Success in my freelance work—I think most people will be like, 'I have an income goal of x.' And that's, of course, I have to do that because I have to pay a mortgage, right?
W- Right
J- I have to make specific money so that I can live and have a roof over my head and have food to eat on the table. So I do have an income goal, which is mostly reachable, by most counts. But then I also—I had to shift this thinking over the last couple of years, because I realized I didn't want to be tired every single day. I wanted to like sleep at least eight to 10 hours a night. And I think we had an exchange via email about that: How, like, I would rather have a job and a career path where I do work maybe 30 hours a week or something and I get eight to 10 hours of sleep at night. And I am well rested. I have my needs met, rather than like I'm hustling every single day of the week. I'm hustling to make an income goal. Where that income goal may be nice to me, and I may be making—I know a lot of people like say like six figures, right?
W- Mhmm
J- That's a milestone for a lot of people, because that helps cover a lot of our needs, and then a lot of, of course, like, luxury desires that we have, right? But that also means I have to spend more time trying to create that amount of money. So I think that for me, I think success is having my needs met through my income, like I'm paying my mortgage, I am eating nice food, I am able to relax on the time I want to relax. That's a goal I'm still striving for. I love for my definition of success being—to be defined by— how much like joy and how much like downtime I have, while meeting my, like, specific income needs and how energized I feel. Rather than like having a six-figure salary somewhere or having, making an X specific amount of money. As an author, I obviously want my book to be published. And now, of course, I would love to make money off of publishing a book. That would be really, really great. But I think that these goals have to fluctuate depending on again, my values. And at this time in life, I would love to be well-rested.
W- Yeah.
J- And well-fed. And well-rested and well-fed more than anything.
W- Yes! I, you know, my business has changed so much since the start of the pandemic. And even since I started this podcast, and now that I'm running two businesses fully on my own terms, a question I have for myself is: 'Can I still take my Fridays off?' Which I worked so hard to build into my business.
J- Yeah.
W- But now, if I'm taking Friday off, I have succeeded that week. And even coming up with that small, like discreet goal of taking this Friday off, tells me and constantly reinforces me that I am on the right track for me at this moment. And I feel it's, it's really helpful to have a North Star, if you will call it that, of some kind.
J- That's so good, because I was actually literally just thinking about this. And I'm sure that you were—there was a timing to where you could not do this—I still can't take weekends off. Because I still have to like check my email. I have to just get kind of these like small task-y things done. And I still can't take my weekends off. I would love to. That's like a, that was a goal I actually set for myself for the next like six months. I was like, I would love to just not work during the weekends. Like at all. I don't want to open my emails, don't want to look at anything that prompts me to want to have to do a task. I just want to be away from the computer and like, go out and read. So I feel that.
W- Absolutely. Joanne, can say a little bit about your coaching and how you've seen clients that you work with struggle with figuring out what success is for them? And like, why is that so hard?
J- Yeah.
W- Why is that so hard to do?
J- I have so many examples of this about—I think that term for this is career dissonance or career...career dysmorphia.
W- What's that?
J- It is when we think about having an image of our career and ourself—like you hear the term dysmorphia when it relates to like body dysmorphia. And it's when we look in the mirror and we see something that is—does not match the reality, like the objective reality of what exists in front of us. So you apply that to your career: You are having a distorted view of your own career and your own desires in a way that does not reflect the reality. Just as an example, I worked with a client recently who explicitly told me they wanted X, Y and Z. Explicitly just says, 'I want to do X, Y and Z.' And like, that's great. That's very clear, very specific goal. And then during the session, she was actually talking about, 'how do I make a decision about this career pivot I'm about to do,' and all of the decisions that, like all the options she gave me did not get her anywhere close to her goal. And so a lot of that was like, I always had to continually to bring up like, ‘at the beginning session, you said your goal is X, Y, and Z, how are you going to meet that while you are trying to make these decisions?’ And that was a really hard speed bump for her to get over because she wanted this. But then she'd also for example, I think she'd be like ‘I wanted more time off,’ for example, but then she'd be like, ‘I also want this really prestigious position at this thing, because it'd be really good, good for my career.’ And I asked her, like, ‘how does that get you more time off? Is there a way you can configure your schedule to get more time off? And this is something we run into a lot, right? You're saying like, ‘I want a goal of this year being X, Y, Z,’ but then we don't align ourselves to those values and stuff. And that's-I think that happens for a lot of reasons. I think that a lot of us are like optimists. Like, I'm an optimist. I, at the beginning of most years, when we're doing like setting goals, I set myself a lot of big goals. And I'm also understanding that I probably will not, you know, reach all of them, or even most of them. And that's totally fine. And so I think that we also have to do a lot of unlearning of what is socialized into us. Like that’s socialized into us at like a very young age, and then like, beaten into our head in multiple ways, in a way that we don't even notice the way we're thinking about our career or ourselves or our aspirations or our desires. And that's especially true if you think about like women. Like when we're growing up as women, we're expected to have X, Y, and Z. And we don't even like probe those kinds of assumptions until we're older and we notice ourselves doing things that we don't want to be doing, things that are exhausting to us. And doing things that are expected of us just because it is expected of us. So it's really, really hard because people, again, don't have time to sit down and think about what they're thinking. We constantly have these like scripts in our head that are telling us that help us…that basically mould our paradigms or how we perceive the world. But we don't have a lot of time or a coach that reflects that to us. And we often don't even realize that we're working under assumptions that may or may not be true. So for example, if on most days, I also tell myself, like, ‘oh, I have to work harder to make more money.’ And I didn't realize that's like a false assumption. Like, that's not a equivalence, like, like I was talking to Cindy about this. And it's like, I'm trying to break this mindset of knowing that if I want to make more money, I have to work hard. That's a false equivalency. And I actually haven't probed that until I said it out loud. Because that's not a thing that exists. That's not like a reality. You don't actually have to work more to make more money. So just as example.
W- Totally. And I think with freelancing, too, there are so many different ways to achieve a certain end goal. How one person works less and makes more money might not work for you.
J- Right
W- Or might not make sense—
J- Right
W- —for you. So in some ways, I feel like defining what a successful freelancer is, just feels like the Wild West.
Right!
W- And I think that's why I feel so discontent with it. And that's why so many other freelancers also, you know, see these calls for 'I'm looking for a successful freelancer who does X, Y, Z.' And they're like, 'oh, is that what success is?' And then they try to work towards an ideal, maybe that is not the best fit for them at the moment.
J- For sure. Yeah. And I think this is so difficult, because when we're freelancers, we don't have a boss telling us what our key success indicators are. They are not telling us what our mission and values and goals are. They're not telling you what we're going to be judged on. We have to determine that for ourselves. And when we do that, we essentially go back to what we're familiar with, right? And another conversation I've had: I don't want to reproduce like the capitalist, heteronormative, white patriarchal systems that exist in capitalist workplaces. If I'm going to create an organization, if I'm going to create a work environment for myself, we do not have to replicate any of those harmful kind of ideas or values in the work that we do. And that's really stuck with me. And again, those are things that we just, they're so ingrained in the way we think about the world that we really just need to stop and probe and interrogate the way we're thinking about the world, before we can get to a place where we're truly embracing what is true and desirable for us as far as goals and ideas of success.
W- 100%. So kind of taking a more solutions-oriented approach to this very hard conundrum of figuring out what success is for ourselves, how do you help your coaching clients—or I guess anyone who comes to you—with a new definition of success that serves them? You talked about, in our emails, how you help your clients reframe success from shoulder to something that feels grounded in personal values. So can you explain that?
J- Yeah, I think there's a lot of ways for you to do this. And a lot of it's really reflective work. It's not something you're gonna like, break down in one session, because I think, again, we have so much expectations and so much pressure put on us. And this is like a really hard thing to probe and break apart from, like what we need. Because in the society we live in, we have to make a specific amount of money to get health insurance, to pay our mortgage, to pay rent. So I think that we have to acknowledge that those systems exist, and we have to live within those systems. But I think that I think a lot about like, what was—like, I do a lot of kind of these asking questions like, 'when was the last time you were like, truly happy?' And like, when I ask people that question, it takes them a long time to think about it. And if you asked me that, I would probably pause and take a while to think about, like, when was the last time you were just like truly happy, either outside of work or inside of work? And I also, you know, money's a thing. When we talk about money, like, what would you like to do with your money? If you're making money, and you're just collecting it somewhere, like, you're not doing anything with that money. What would you like to do with your money? And then talking about our values around money, or maybe around time. I bring up money just because it's just so inherent in what we need to do, we need it to do in our lives.
W- Yeah.
J- But you can also think about success in a way about money was instead of thinking about, like collecting money, what you want to do with money. And I had a great discussion with one of the Embrace Change coaches. And I think that, for example, I've got to be really non-judgmental about what other people do with their money. I'm getting off on a tangent, but I'll get back to like success. Like, for example, one person's success was like, 'I want to make enough money that if I have a family member asked me to borrow money in emergency, I want to be comfortable giving them that money.' And I hadn't thought about that before. Because I had this idea—I was like, 'I'm not lending anybody the money I made. Like, I'm barely making money, enough money myself. But when I heard about that, I was like, that's so interesting, like, being a resource to the community and being resources to people around you, as a measure of success. I hadn't even thought about that. But that is like so interesting, and I found that really intriguing. And this is also so considerate and so compassionate. And that also just goes back to this, of understanding what your values are. And then also like extricating those values out of like, what you think you should or what you think you need to do, right? I think that the first, maybe first step is like interrogating our shoulds and our needs to. For example, like: I should have a 401(k). Like, should you? Like, what does a 401k need. So like, I should have a 401(k). I should contribute to my retirement. I should charge XYZ for this client, because this, I should charge hourly versus project-based. I think that a really good starting point is every time like thinking about should—like 'I should have this. I should have a house. I should have a condominium. You know, I should live in X, Y and Z city,' write those down and start interrogating. Like, should you need to live in New York? Should you need to live in New York City to be a successful freelancer or writer?
W- Should you?
J- Why New York City? Can we create systems where you don't have to be in New York City to be a successful author? Or someone says you should have a 401(k) by the age of X, Y, Z. Like, should you need a 401(k)? Like, what does having 401(k) benefit you? Are there other ways and systems that you can get what you need in the future? Outside of a 401(k) or a Roth IRA? Oh, there's, of course, like one thing that like, LLC. To like, 'you should have an LLC.' You know, like, for what reason? Like, are you taking this advice just because someone said you should? Or are you making actions because your parents or someone in your life who was a mentor told you, you should? I think that's a really good first step, just to maybe like journal throughout the week about all the shoulds that you're putting on yourself, and then interrogating that. That's something you can probably just do on your own. And you'd be really surprised at how much like we tell ourselves these messages about we should do this, we should do this, we should do this. And interrogating where these shoulds are coming from and who those shoulds are benefiting.
W- Yeah, everytime I hear that word…previously on the show, we have said that should is could but with shame attached.
J- Yeah, yeah!
W- Like the SH from shame. And maybe that's a little too intense. And shame is too triggering of a word for some people. But it's a powerful reframe, I think, on the 'oh, I should do X, Y, Z.'
J- Right!
W- I do want to ask about personal values, because I ran a workshop, and I was shocked at how difficult it was for people to come up with their personal values, right? Because so okay, we were talking about this reflective work of how the things that society probably wants us to have—or our parents or our partner or our dog—wants us to have are not actually things that we want ourselves. So we can say like, 'okay, not that' but then saying yes to our personal values, when we have trouble identifying our personal values, like how can somebody get in touch with their personal values?
J- That's so hard. Like, I did this with a therapist, and she was like, 'what are your personal values?' And I was just sitting there, like staring at her, like, personal values? Like, what does that mean? Are you asking about like, I want pepperoni on my pizza or no pepperoni? Are you talking about like pineapple on pizza? And that's like, that's so hard because it's so ambiguous. You can start literally like, anywhere. I think like, this is a question that was asked to me in high school. And it's like, 'who are you when, like, no one is looking?' You know, and I think about that a lot. That's what in high school, they defined integrity—like, what are you doing when no one's looking at you? And because of who I am, I tried to think about this in like a very chaotic fashion. It's like, who, like what, like, what issue or what belief would you like fight someone about? Like, if you were put into a situation where you were like, you would fight someone, and you would fight someone to death about like a specific issue or something like, what would that be? And like, think about that. And then also think about, like, maybe moments in your life, where you were put in a position where you had to make a really difficult decision. And when you have to make those difficult decisions, like, what are you weighing in your mind? If you're making a difficult decision, are you thinking about what others are thinking about you? Are you thinking about the impact on your family? Are you thinking about how much money you can make out of that? Or are you thinking about the amount of respect or the optics? Think about going back to places in your life where you had to make a really difficult decision, and then how you think about those important decisions can help also illuminate your values. I think that like, if you have nowhere else to start, Google like a values worksheet and just start striking things off. Circling things, striking things off. That's like a very, very like basic exercise. You just look up like a values wheel, a values word bank, and just start crossing things off. And then I think that another reflective exercise is like, if you had like all the money in the world, to like, throw at philanthropy or a cause you believe in. Or something like, that's also another excellent...I like to...I'm pretty chaotic. I'm really, really loosey goosey. So that's where I would start. If you want to be super chaotic, like, what would I fight someone about? What would I fight someone about?
W- I don't see this...I don't see this as chaotic. Actually, I see it as a lot of different solutions to solve one problem. And I hope whoever's listening to this hears one thing that resonates with them and goes with it, right? Like, whether it's this reflective journaling, which is not me, I kind of just go on really long walks and process it, and then the answer just like lands when I drive home. Or sometimes it helps to see things, the words and values in front of them to be like, 'yeah, that resonates. This sucks.' I will say the difficult decisions one is really fascinating. And I think it almost helps to think of a more like recent difficult decision, because that's more reflective of like where you are. It brings you closer to the present moment. And like, we're constantly evolving as people, and not even just businesses, as people period. And our lives are changing, because that is how life works. So yeah, I really love these questions. To close, I know, we talked about so many great things, but Joanne, if somebody is listening, and still feels overwhelmed by the fact that, as a freelancer and a small business owner, it's really up to them to define success on their own terms, what's one thing or maybe like one gateway question that they can consider and then begin to implement in their lives and businesses, as soon as possible?
J- As a coach, I am one of those people that like throws a lot of spaghetti at the wall. So I'm just like throwing spaghetti at the wall, see whatever sticks for you, and if that sticks for you, it works. So totally understand, if you're feeling overwhelmed about understanding your idea of success. I'm just gonna leave you with this exercise I like to do from time to time. And it works for some people. It may not work for some people. Really like close your eyes and just take like five to 10 minutes to think about the best version of yourself in five to 10 years. You can do 30 years if you feel strongly about it. And then take five, 10 minutes and imagine that version of yourself. And then really try to be as descriptive as possible. I always, again, I for me, I start with like where I'm living. And then what I'm doing on a day-to-day basis. I even think about the clothes I'm wearing or the food I'm eating. Spend five, 10 minutes imagining that future best version of yourself. And then when you have done this for long enough, you're just reflecting and meditating, maybe you're going for a walk and you're thinking about this, get back to a place where you can open a Google Doc or you can open a notebook and write down everything you saw during that kind of reflection. And nine times out of 10, you're probably not going to be like 'I made six figures.' You're not thinking about like the amount of money, you're thinking about, like, in 30 years, I want to live in a house on a beach. Like and then once you have that kind of vision, write the description of everything you felt, and everything you saw, everything you were wearing or eating in that kind of vision. And then on like a day-to-day basis, I think it'd be like, 'am I getting closer to that version of myself?' And just like 'what's one thing I can do? Am I getting—am I getting closer or further away from that future version of myself that I really, really want to be? And that will help you kind of clarify and realign you and help you recalibrate towards success. Because right now, your idea of success may be like 'I want 20 clients by the end of the year, so I can hit XYZ income.' But in the future version of yourself, you're like, you're only working 20 hours a week, you're sitting in a house on a beach, drinking a nice cup of tea. Like, is that what you are working towards? And how can you take one step closer to that by doing something today?
W- Yeah, I like this. And we both coach and I feel like I want to give listeners one more small morsel that relates to goal setting.
J- Yes.
W- And that's when in coaching, we use the SMART framework. And that's an acronym, which stands for: specific, measurable, achievable, reasonable? Is that the R? And then time-bound is the T. And I think, as we think about these futuristic visions of ourselves, and then we need to take a step back and be like, 'oh, what's the one thing that I can do?' If your goal is to have a healthy lifestyle, like maybe that is building 30 to 45 minutes of walking into your day, as like a jumpstart into a thing. And that's very incredibly specific. Very measurable. Wear a watch Achievable.
J- Yes.
W- Reasonable. Look in your calendar and time-bound. Like I'm going to do that today. Right? So I think like even breaking it down at that level can be really helpful.
J- Yes, definitely.
W- Any other closing thoughts on success, Joanne? I feel like we've touched on a lot.
J- Yeah, I just wanted to reiterate that this is hard for other people to do, so if you're overwhelmed and you're feeling really scattered by this, that's really normal. And I want to just make sure that we all spend time interrogating an idea of success that's separated from like white supremacy, separated from capitalism, kind of all those 'isms' that are just constantly putting pressure on us every single day. And I think we all need to integrate, like, rest into our success as well, right? And I'm sure you are a huge proponent of that. So if nothing—if you don't take anything out of this podcast after our conversation, give yourself a break. That's my—that's my bottom line. Give yourself a break. Give yourself a time to take a break and breather in the middle of your day.
W- I love that. I love that as a closing thought, and I'm contemplating taking a nap. So there's that. Well, Joanne, thanks so much for taking the time to come on the show. It was lovely to have you as a guest.
J- Thank you so much for having me.
W- Thanks so much to Joanne for coming on the show. All-Access Patreon members will get a worksheet with journaling prompts so you're able to start redefining success for yourself. Signing up via patreon.com/TWCpod at the All-Access level will get you more of these great resources, early access to episodes and an in to our inclusive and psychologically safe Slack community. You can follow Joanne on Twitter @heyjomachin. Thank you so much for listening, and I will talk to you all soon. Thanks so much for listening to the Writers' Co-op. If you've enjoyed our episodes, please rate, review, and subscribe on the listening platform of your choice. These reviews help more listeners discover us. You can join us on Patreon at an All-Access member level at patreon.com/TWC pod. This gets you access to discount codes for events for other objects online and our safe and inclusive online Slack community. The show is hosted by me, Wudan Yan. Our producer is Margaret Osborne and our editor is Susan Valot.
