Embrace Authentic Marketing (July 2021)

SEASON 6, EPISODE 8:

Today we’re playing an episode from July 2021 with freelancer Emma Diehl. This was from our third season, where we coached other freelancers.  In this episode, Jenni and Emma talk about some of the trickiest parts of freelancing, including marketing. If you’ve asked “How do I sell my services in a way that feels authentic?” or “ how can I make myself stand out in a sea of people who are offering the same things?” – then this episode is for you.

After Jenni and Emma met for their coaching session, Emma revamped her bio: Emma Diehl is a writer and editor specializing in finance, tech, and real estate content. Her specialty is mastering tricky topics (stuff like tax returns, AI, and home inspections) in a way that makes it easy for everyone to understand. When she's not combing through technical documents and research, she's fermenting stuff in her kitchen, learning to skateboard, and curating a pop culture recommendation newsletter. You can find her on Twitter and can read more about her work at https://www.emmadiehl.com/.

Full Transcript Below:

Wudan Yan- Hi, everyone, welcome to The Writers' Co-op.

Jenni Gritters- We are your co-hosts. 

W- I'm Wudan.

J- And I am Jenni. Wudan, what's up? How are you?

W- I have been good. I've been getting out in the world, which is bizarre. I popped over to Southern California to do a few stories in the field. And it was great. Somehow I remembered how to report in the real world and talk to strangers. And more importantly, it reminded me of why I do this work, which is just really important to me, personally. What about you, Jenni?

J- Yeah, that's awesome. I feel like it has been a very long time since you've been out reporting in the field. And I know, that's your jam. It's your favorite part of this. So July is somehow nuts for me. This seems to always be the case. I looked back on previous years and July is always a busy month for me, business-wise. Maybe, I don't know, maybe people are going on vacation in August so they want to get a bunch of stuff done. But I'm onboarding a couple new clients. And July is a $12,000 month for me, which is kind of, yeah, it feels intense given the number of hours that I'm working.

W- Yeah. Aren't you still working limited hours?

J- Yes. So I've been thinking lately about something Damon Brown said in one of our panels. He talks a lot about passive revenue and efficiency. And he was talking about how constraints are actually good for you and your business. And it kind of like struck a chord with me, I think. I have been thinking of constraints as being limiting to my business. But it's possible, and I think this month is maybe evidence to the fact that limiting my business has actually made me a lot more efficient. You know, I actually just like can't take projects that don't pay well, at this point. And I can't take anything that's less than $150 an hour. And so that's what I pitch, and I'm starting to get yeses from people. So I'm working a lot less but getting paid a lot more. I think it's sort of making me like toe my own line, if that makes sense. Making me more bold, like delaying projects when I'm full because I literally can't work on them. Right? Because I'm with a toddler. So yeah. And I'm also booked up through October, which is a really good feeling. It's wild to watch. I think Damon was right.

W- Yeah, I think it's interesting to be making the same amount of money and working less. It also means that you're just raising your rates generally, and you value— your time is more valuable.

J- Yeah, I totally. I am working, I would say, half the number of hours I worked before but making the same amount, like you said, so yeah, it's a good lesson in sort of experimentation and like culling the fat I think to sort of like I said, make sure you're toeing the line that you've set in a forced way.

W- Totally. And also, Damon is just awesome. He is a former journalist, turned entrepreneur, and we're going to have him on another event soon.

J- Yes, we are. He is going to be on a panel in September about passive revenue. So keep an eye out for that. So speaking of Writers' Co-op things, we do have one cool offering that we wanted to talk about before we jump into today's interview. And that is our new mastermind group for media entrepreneurs. 

W- Yep, we have spent a lot of time griping about the state of our industry. And we decided that we want to do something about it. 

J- Yeah, so instead of just texting each other crankily, we decided to set up a mastermind group. A mastermind group is a group of people who are facing a similar issue, and we pull everybody together and offer a coaching group. The benefit is that you get to trade resources and tips and tricks with everyone else, because you're all going through the same thing. So this fall that group and we've done this before for other groups, but this group this fall is going to be for folks who are creating solutions in the media industry.

W- So if you're creating something, whether that's a newsletter, a podcast, a set of stories, an app, company, organization, series of events, la la la la la, that's meant to be a solution to a key problem in media, this group is for you.

J- Yeah, totally. There are probably so many iterations of this that we haven't even thought of yet. But people are already pitching us. You know, they're working on projects that are newsletters, series of stories, I would consider our podcast to be kind of part of this. So any and all ideas are welcome. And we're going to be taking 12 entrepreneurs. The program will last from September through November, and it includes monthly meetings, bi weekly office hours, guest speakers, we're going to talk about scaling, funding, marketing, all sorts of stuff, and then you also get a one on one business tune up to kind of parse through your idea with either me or Wudan.

W- We will drop the link to apply in the show notes. All right, Jenni, who are we talking to today?

J- So today I did a coaching session with a freelancer named Emma Diehl. Emma is a freelance writer and editor and she specializes in finance, tech and real estate content. Her specialty is mastering tricky topics like tax returns and AI and home inspections in a way that makes them easier for everybody else to understand. And when she's not combing through technical documents and research, Emma is fermenting stuff, she's learning to skateboard, and she curates a pop culture recommendation newsletter. So in this session, Emma and I are actually, I think the whole session, we pretty much spent talking about marketing, which I think is a huge issue for so many of us freelancers.

W- I love marketing, for some reason, but I also admit that marketing yourself as a freelancer is pretty tough. So I'm excited. Let's give this conversation a listen.

J- Hi, Emma, and welcome to The Writers' Co-op. 

Emma Diehl- Oh, thanks. I'm really excited to be here today. 

J- We're super excited to have you. So why don't you give us the lowdown. Tell us about who you are, what kind of work you do and what your services are at the moment?

E- Sure. So I am a freelance writer, specifically in sort of the content creation space. I'd say my focus is working often with brands who are in sort of the finance technology, or even real estate space creating in-house content for these brands.

J- Okay, great. And I was reading through some of the materials you sent us. And you said you define yourself as a content translator. So can you tell us a little bit about why that's important to your business?

E- I call myself sort of a translator because I work with consumer facing brands, but often they're sort of rooted in technology or a tricky to understand space, like real estate or finance. So they're trying to appeal to consumers, but their subject matter can be difficult to understand. So as a content creator, it takes a lot of sort of back end research and understanding these industries to make it super easy for the end reader to understand. 

J- We're going to come back to this but I love that that is a way that you market yourself, because I think it really tells people a lot about what you do. Will you tell me about your current setup, so how much you're working, you know, maybe how many clients you currently have spinning? That sort of thing.

E- Right now, I'd say I did like I would call it spring cleaning recently, and started dropping some of the clients where it was too much work for not enough pay. So it was around March, I sort of said goodbye to some folks I've been working with. So now I'd say weekly, I'm working about, say 20 to 30 hours a week. And I've got four stable clients right now that I'm working with primarily.

J- Okay. I love the concept of spring cleaning. That's great. Yeah, I think we need to make that a thing. So tell me about finances. How much are you making? And are you hitting some of those goals that you want to be hitting each month or not? What does that look like?

E- Yeah, in terms of finances, when I'm tracking my time and invoicing, I like how much I am invoicing in terms of hourly rate and how much work I'm putting in. But I would like to, I think, be picking up more hours, whether that means another client or just expanding with these clients. Like I feel like I'm on a good track with my sort of hourly pay. But a goal of mine would to be kind of pick up more hours, like I said, with current clients or new ones to just keep working on that like trajectory of hourly.

J- Yeah, what is your ideal number of hours you want to work each week?

E- No more than 40 is like my gut. But I find that right now, there's like some lagginess and bagginess in my schedule. And I think that even adding like five more hours of billable work will feel good and doable. So like between, like 25 and 35.

J- Okay. Yeah, I like that sort of 30 to 35 hour a week setup, because I think then it sort of accounts for some of this other stuff that we have to do and also gives you time to step away. Right? So that makes a lot of sense to me. In those five hours, how much more do you want to be making? Because I think there's also I know, we're going to talk a little bit about clients today. So this plays into that, right? So do we need high paid clients? Does it matter how much you're making during those extra five hours? What does that look like for you?

E- I'd say I want it to be my higher paying project. So when I'm doing you know, just straight content creation and more billing per project, I find myself averaging around like $100 an hour. But I do offer some editing and content manager coordination work where I'm making around like 45 to 50 an hour, but when we're talking about those five extra hours, I want it to be like my, like $100 hours. So probably more on like the content creation and per project filling structure.

J- Okay, that makes a lot of sense to me. So we're looking at kind of like $1,000 or more per month, maybe a little bit more than that. 

E- Yeah, that would be nice. 

J- Okay, okay, I'm writing this down. This is part of your goal structure. So let's before we get into some of the nitty gritty, I would love to hear a little bit about your dreams for your freelance career, like, what ideally you want to be doing maybe in the next few years, you know, if you thought about, like, what people know you for and what kind of work you're doing, what does that look like?

E- Instinctually, the first thing that comes to mind for me, which I think is can be kind of at odds with freelance life, is a little more stability. I think in the past year, we've all had a ton of instability and freelancing isn't always the most stable career. But just having more stable clients and being able to anticipate a little bit more what my weeks and months will look like, being able to plan that vacation a couple of months. And not stressing when or not feeling like I have to pick up work week before that happens and then kind of ruin a vacation. So I think beyond sort of financial goals, it's a lot of that stability. And I'd like to be known by my clients as like a stable, easy person to work with. Something that's been amazing so far, and I wish would happen more is my clients referring me that their friends or other clients or companies, they end up going to, it's like, ultimately a very flattering thing. And to just have my name going around and building this reputation for being reliable and not easy to work with, but good to work with.

J- Okay, I love this. So what's interesting is, I think you talked a little bit about financial stability, but it sounds like moreso what you want is a regular schedule, right? So you sort of know what's coming? Do you have gigs right now that sort of repeat month to month or have some sort of regularity? Or is that something we should talk about today?

E- I do. I think some of my clients, there's an expectation of, you know, we'd love to have you for this many hours a week. And we're giving you these many posts or pieces of content work on a month, on like a monthly basis, but with other clients, I think they want it to be that stable, but it's much less predictable. And as a freelancer, I'm always, you know, having that worry of if I'm going to prod them or be like, let's get more specific that they will sort of disappear or run away or...

J- Yep. 

E- You know, so you're a freelancer, you know, just go with the flow. 

J- Yeah, I get that. What would you need to make things feel more stable? Because it sounds like you have a few clients who are sort of regular, what would you need to change with your current setup to make things feel a little bit more expected, I guess. Right,? you're talking about being able to plan.

E- I think with the current clients I have, it's probably having that conversation around expectations and stability, being pretty clear about what I can take on, what they might need from me, because I think that would even dispel the maybe anxiety I have around stability. Like if they were tapped out in terms of how much they need for me, then it would be an indicator that I probably need to pick up another client. I think when I'm onboarding new projects and new clients, being able to like start those conversations talking a little bit more about predictability.

J- Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, this is kind of an interesting thing, right? Because you actually have a lot of these clients already in your wheelhouse. And so part of it might just be getting a clear sense of their expectations, right? Because I think the hardest thing, at least from my perspective, is when you're working for them, but you have no idea sort of what's coming or if they're going to need something else from you. So if you maybe could get a bit more information. It sounds like that might help.

E- Yeah. And I think that's something when I was sort of establishing my freelance business, it wasn't something I was thinking about. I was just thinking about, yeah, let's pick up work and maybe not even building relationships with the clients. And I think building that rapport and having these conversations now could probably help things feel a little more stable or even-keeled.

J- Yeah, absolutely. You know, one of the things you said too, is that you want to have a good rapport with these clients, right, and be known as reliable and good to work with. And I think what we're talking about is the way towards that as well. Right? Those conversations, getting to know them a little better.

E- Definitely, I think I had this preconceived notion that I don't know like, freelancers are, like, seen but not heard. Like, we're just, I don't know, like doing the work. And not because we're not, maybe a full time employee, building a relationship. But I'm realizing two and a half years into my freelance journey, just how important it is to like, build these relationships.

J- Yeah, totally. I think there's this perception of you will get more work if you're easy, right? Meaning quiet and not making a stink. But what I found, which is a little bit counterintuitive, I often say that working with clients is a little bit like dating, and when you have hard conversations with people, and when you're setting clear expectations and boundaries, actually, you get closer, right? Because it's sort of a vulnerable place. And they get to know you. And so that actually can lead to more work, I think, and deeper relationships, or very quick red flags. So you know not to drop your time into that, right. It's, it's like dating, for better or worse. So I mean, tell me, what do you need in order to make those conversations happen? Because it sounds like you're pretty clear on who you need to talk to them what you want to talk to them about. But do you get stuck with scheduling those or starting those conversations?

E- I think it is so much about just getting the ball rolling, like starting the script on that, like, what does the email look like? Like, hey, we need to talk about this and not— I don't know it's a lot like that dating, right? I'm like, worried that my language is going to like scare them away. I think it's really just getting the ball rolling. It's like how do I open doors for that discussion when I never have before?

J- Yeah, totally. So what is step one for you? Because I think this is typically very challenging, right? It is not just you because it is it feels risky, and it's new and all of the things so what would step one be for you? Is it drafting an email? Is it making a list of the folks you want to talk to? like where's the starting line? 

E- I think it's drafting that email. 

J- Okay, and then what do you need to send The email, do you need backup? Do you need support? Do you need someone else to read it? Do you need to be in a certain place or setting?

E- I think— that's a good question. I feel like it's, I think a little bit of that support. And just knowing that it's not like it's helpful to even say it's like dating or like having these valuable conversations that this is something that is okay to be done. And it's okay to ask. And it's not you're not being the Unruly Freelancer by trying to have this conversation with somebody.

J- Totally. I have to tell you like one of the episodes we recorded previously, we had a whole conversation about this. I think everybody I coach struggles with this, right? So this is like, both a thing that has to happen and I think that is scary. You said you need support. So tell me what that looks like. Is that your partner? Is that a friend? What does that look like?

E- I think it's definitely.. I have some friends locally that we are in freelancing together. It's in a bunch of different industries. But I think it's probably just shooting a text to that group thread saying I need to send this email out today and getting like a thumbs up emoji like that this isn't crazy. And just the push and maybe being held a little bit accountable. They're like "is that email out yet?"

J- Yep. I love that. Okay, so you're going to text your freelancer crew to get a little bit of support. What do you want to say in the email? Because you talked about drafting it. So is it getting clear on expectations? Is it asking for future work? Is it wanting to talk about repetitive work? What's the theme of that email?

E- Yeah, it's funny you pose it that way because in my head, I'm like, Oh, is it just like a touch base? But I'm realizing that also is sort of dragging the conversation out. For a lot of my clients, I've worked with them for a year plus, and I think I can send an email that just like, hey, I'm thinking about repetitive work or being available in bandwidth. And I'd like to know expectations on on your end.

J- Yep. I love that. Okay. So I think you know, what's interesting is I can tell you're actually craving feedback from these clients, too, right? Like, do they like working with you? You don't know. And so this conversation actually kind of ticks both of these buckets of wanting more stability and getting feedback. So basically, it's proposing a conversation, right? That's what this email is?

E- I think so, yeah. And not just a conversation, but setting those expectations off the bat of like, this is what I want to talk about.

J- Yep, totally. And I think one of the ways I love to frame this is I'm planning out my summer. And I would love to talk about what it might look like for us to, you know, have a little bit of structure around our relationship over that time, or something like that, right? So sort of use, "I'm looking ahead," or I often use the line like "I have room for a new client" or "room for capacity for more work in June," right? "What would that look like for us to use that time together?" So to kind of have almost an excuse, right, a timing excuse, I think makes it a lot easier. I love that. I'm jotting down some notes, I think we have a template that we'll send to you. A Co-op template that we often send to folks when they're like trying to ask for something different or new from a client. But I think you know, what you what you want to say. And you know that you need the support from a bunch of people holding you accountable, which totally makes sense. How do you feel about doing that? Do you feel feel like you could get started on it? Yeah,

E- Yeah. I mean, talking through it with you. I am like, Oh, that sounds so reasonable. Like, it's so it's doable?

J- Yeah. They're other people, right? And these are just other people. And I think the way we're talking is exactly the way you get to talk to them, right? I think sometimes we make it out that there's this power dynamic of them running the show, and us being sort of the little peons who just have to do whatever they say, but it is a business relationship, right? You're working together on something. So it's a good shift. So I love this. So we're gonna add this to your to-do list for this month. And then tell me where else you're getting sort of stuck. So it sounds like you need another client, the client who's going to bring in about $1,000 a month and have about five hours a week of work. So tell me where you're getting stuck on finding that person and figuring out what you want?

E- Yeah, I think it's a lot in the, I don't even know if pitching is the right word. It's like the finding in that first step of getting in contact. I've been lucky enough in my business, that some work that's coming in now is referrals, or, you know, a contact going to new company and bringing on a team of freelancers. But the cold outreach, and the maybe selling of myself, it's like, I don't know, I'm digging. I'm like digging for emails for places I think I'd be a good fit. And I don't know if that's a productive use of my time at sort of finding these opportunities, knowing who to reach out for and even how to reach out. So I don't just look like some, I don't know, cold call or like bot that's emailing an editor somewhere.

J- Yep, totally. So let's start with talking about you, because I think the selling yourself part is the hardest of all of this. Right? So can you tell me, and these are going to be slightly challenging questions, but I first want to know what you think you're best at.

E- I think what I am best at when I'm working with clients is just being reliable. I mean actually getting the work in. I didn't realize until I started freelancing that that is an issue for a lot of clients, at least once I've worked with, people who disappear. So it sounds kind of like a low bar. But I think I'm good at keeping up with clients demands and not disappearing and staying in communication, at least when the relationship starts.

J- Okay, I love that. Tell me what you think is unique about your business. So the things that you offer to people.

E- My love of research, and what my friends call a taste for boring is really helpful when it comes to the clients I'm working with. It's often financial, like digging through IRS tax paperwork, to create content and be able to understand these concepts. And I think especially in sort of content creation space, it's hard to find folks who are interested in or want to do that are used to financial compliance, where it's if you're talking about money, you have to write about it a different way. I have that experience and that interest, and I like doing it.

J- Yeah, I love this. I'm with you on the financial compliance stuff. I love finance, stuff like that. But you know, the greatest phrase that you just said, is "a taste for boring." Like that, that tells a whole lot about you. Right? In a way, that's really fun. So you know, when I'm asking you these things, part of this is figuring out like, on your website, how are you going to talk about yourself? Right? And I think the inclination is, how can I make myself like everybody else, when we're thinking about marketing? Like, how can I turn myself into what I think they want? And the much better and more comfortable strategy is just to like, be you, right? Be the person who has the taste for boring and who loves complexity and research and all of that. So is there anything else you think is unique about your temperament or your interest that would be worth including in this story?

E- I think, being able to— maybe this goes along with my interest in dry content— bridging the gap between sort of the creative and the business, when it comes to content creation. I mean, being able to get work done on time and on deadline, and manage those relationships, but also be able to produce good creative copy. I think it's rare that you find a balance like that.

J- Yeah, absolutely. You can sort of understand and touch both sides of the business, right? Which I think as somebody who's working with brands is super important. We know there's so much bureaucracy and a lot of organization and nuance required in working with the client that can make it tough to get the creative work done. So if you can do both, that is super key. So what is your marketing look like right now? Like, do you have any of this sort of wording on your website, when you talk about yourself?

E- I think bargaining myself just even feels like a novel concept. My website, it's like a couple of lines, I think really basic, not much of a bio not much about me. And then a couple examples of my work, but it's not comprehensive. I mean, the idea of marketing myself, and my business has been like, kind of non existent. There's a website. There are a couple lines, but I not sure if a client or a potential client went there, they wouldn't know that much about me.

J- Hmm. So I think this is interesting, right? Because as freelancers We are the business, right? But it can be scary. It's like very vulnerable to say, like, here's me. Here's all the things I'm actually good at. Like I tell the story of when I launched my freelance business, I sat on the floor and cried, and my husband was like, aren't you excited? And I was like, No, this is horrible. Because if it doesn't go, Well, everybody knows what I actually want and how I actually am, right? Like, it's really putting yourself out there. So I think we maybe need to get some of this language on your website. But I know that can be really uncomfortable and scary. So tell me where your brain goes when you start to think about, okay, maybe next week, I'm gonna sit down and write a three paragraph About Me page on my website, like, Where does your brain go when you think about doing that?

E- Yeah, it goes to I think there's a little bit of resistance, I'd say. When I started building my website, I think I looked at some other people's portfolio sites that were like sleek and cool. And a couple lines said it all. And I'll be honest, that's probably not me. But I was like, Oh, that looks cool. Let's sort of model myself after that. And not really putting my whole self out there. I think it's hard because there's like me as a person and me a little bit as a brand here. Yeah. And like you're saying that opportunity for someone to be like, that person is not for me, but it seems like the more specific I can get, or the more me I can get when someone is actually interested in working with me, they're going to have an idea of who I am before we even get on a call.

J- I think, you know, you don't want to be for everybody. It's so much easier to be the right fit for some people, right? But as a freelancer, that concept can also be really scary. Because it does mean there will be some rejection, right? Or some people looking at your website and saying like, I actually don't have a taste for boring. So I don't want to hire her, right? But you may not want to work with those people, right? You want to be the absolute best fit for a certain subset of people. And that is going to make your marketing so much easier. You know how you said like seeming like a bot is sort of something you're afraid of? Right? When you reach out? I think the best way to seem like a bot is to be generic.

E- Oh my gosh. No, this is really speaking to me. Because I mean, like, whether it was marketing or the business I chose, or like the clients I choose, or projects I've chosen to work with a lot of it's just saying yes. Because I wanted to work, I want everyone to want to work with me. But that's also led to, you know, pretty robust spring cleaning this year of people that we just weren't a good pairing.

J- Yep, totally. So this is like your moment where you get to have a little more control, right? And the way that you have more control is by being pretty specific about what you want and who you are. So tell me what your brain tells you is like the worst case scenario. So say you put on your website, who you are, and the types of clients that you would love to work with. I heard you say, like, people might say no, right? Like, you might you might get rejections. What else are you afraid might happen?

E- I think that's it. I mean, the rejection just keeps looming. Or just, what is this person talking about? But I guess the beauty of this is that, like, I don't have to look at my website with other people. I think there's that that fear of also like, just putting myself out into the void and hearing nothing back, like not even rejection, just sort of crickets.

J- Yep. So hearing nothing or hearing No. What would happen if you got rejected?

E- Sort of nothing? I mean, like, we didn't have anything going on anyway. Right? Like, it was an opportunity. But it's, it's all about that fit. And I don't know, I would keep going like, right? I have to find someone to work with. And they probably weren't a good fit if they did not, you know, laugh at the awful jokes I'm gonna put on my website.

E- Yeah, you know, I love that. Please put all of the awful corny jokes on your website. You know, I think here's the thing. Right now you don't have a client in that space that you're trying to fill. Right? And so the worst thing that could happen is that you just wouldn't have a client in the space you're trying to fill.

E- Yeah, no and like, I would survive. I'm doing that.

J- Yeah, you would totally survive. You have proved that you can survive over the past few years, right? And you've proved that you can survive through a pandemic. So you know, the interesting thing is, I think the worst case scenario is actually just sort of like what you are doing right now, which is just fine. Right? 

E- Oh, that's, that's a relief. 

J- Yeah. I mean. Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing is— your other fear was that you would hear nothing, right? That there wouldn't be a response. So what would happen if you did fix your website, and you sent it out to a bunch of people, and you heard nothing?

E- I mean, I think it would indicate I might not be sending it out to the right people. But it's also similar to my other fear. Things would probably just stay the same. But I can also guarantee you right now that like, I'm not getting a lot of hits on my website right now the way it is. So yeah, trying something new is better than sitting with the thing I have that is not doing much. It's not negative, but it's just a very neutral site.

J- Yeah, totally. So I think, you know, same thing, right? Like, even if you heard nothing, you'd be in the same boat as you are now. And also, you could make some changes, right? You just said like, maybe I was just talking to the wrong clients. Right? So maybe you would go look for some different clients, right? I think part of this is also that you have absolute resilience and control. And whatever you put on your website is not static, right? You can change it tomorrow. I change mine literally once a month, Emma. You know, you can change it whenever you want. It's totally under your capacity to make adjustments, right? And so this would be sort of an experiment, right?

E- Definitely. And something that is more like understandable than before. It's just like, gotta find clients. What do I do? And like running around with my head cut off? Like, this is something I have a little bit of control over.

J- Yeah, totally. This defines your lane a little bit, right? Which I actually think is sort of a relief, in my experience with folks I've worked with in my personal experience, right? Like, oh, okay, I don't have to, like, be everything to everyone. I can just do this one thing and be very good at it. Right? Like you said, you want to be known for being very good at something. And this is actually an incredible way to do that, to develop some expertise, to be able to be so good at something that everybody's referring you, right? Then you don't even have to do these cold emails, which we can talk about. But you know, I think the goal is actually that you wouldn't have to do those very often. Because they suck. Because it's hard. One thing you said to me too, is that it would just feel really good to try something new.

E- Yeah I think, like I said, it's sort of been, especially the past year, it's been sort of heads down. I'm just trying to keep my head above water, you know whether it's with work or just life has been weird. So it would feel good, I think, to spend this time focusing on myself a little bit in my brand and my story and making it distinctly me.

J- Yeah, totally. So you know, what's interesting is you have five hours a week right now. Right? And that is sort of actually like the perfect amount of time to say, okay, maybe for the next like, five, six weeks, those five hours a week, you're considering an investment in figuring out your brand. Eventually, those slots are gonna get filled. I have no doubt about that. Right? I think you could fill them now with someone. But the goal would be that maybe you could define what you want so specifically, that then you find the client that fills that spot that is like, a really, really good fit for you. Right? What would that look like? So imagine, now you're gonna spend the next month taking five hours a week to figure this out. What do you need to do to figure all this out?

E- Well, it's interesting, it kind of sounds a little bit like the work that I do with my clients. It's gonna be a lot of research. But I think me research dive in a little bit deep on, I think something that would help is looking back at the past projects, clients, things I've worked on that I've really liked, and tried to fold that into the narrative and show those projects instead of just showing everything I've ever done, or writing up some truly awful bios about myself and editing them.

J- Yep. So I always say to people, especially with the bio writing, which is extremely difficult to do, I think that setting the context can be really, really helpful. So I have a client who does her finances in the bath with a glass of red wine, because she absolutely despises looking at them. And that is the only place where she feels relaxed. So my question for you is, some of these tasks are going to challenge you a little bit, right? So what context do you need to have to put yourself in a mindset that you can be risky and be bold, and be vulnerable when you're reading this stuff?

E- Yeah. I've started building out like my home office space in the past year, and it's a place I'm starting to get really comfortable. So it's definitely, this is gonna be like at home and in the privacy of my own space, because I think it's gonna, I think it's gonna get weird. But I think feeling really comfortable before I even sit down. But I'm also, my gut is saying a lot of it won't be that sitting down or heads down work. It's a little more like nebulous and thinking. And I see a little bit of space for just like, intake and thinking a little more creatively. The way I've approached this before has always just been so formulaic. Like, Hello, my name is Emma, I do blank, blank, blank and blank. And that's sort of my website heading. And I'm curious if I could create like a comfortable space for myself to just start a little bit bigger and think a little more creatively, because I mean, it's a sight, but it's also me. And I think sitting down and doing this work now could just really inform the direction of where I go and how I work with folks moving forward.

J- Yeah, totally. So I know for me, right, hiking, and running and doing yoga are things that really sort of, it's that nebulous work, right? It's like I'm walking in the woods, and I'm just sort of thinking, do you have a space or a place or a habit that really helps you with some of that nebulous thinking stuff?

E- Yeah, actually, when I first started freelancing, I got really into The Artist's Way. And they talked about the idea of like, the me date. And before these times, it was often like trips to the museum or movies alone in the afternoon, which always felt like a luxurious part of freelancing that I could just go to like a two o'clock matinee. So it's, I think it's creating a little bit of space, maybe seeing things that inspire me, like a good piece of art, or a documentary. And when those things get me excited, that can help inform or ask questions about myself.

J- Yeah, The Artist's Way has been coming up constantly. I just finished it too. And it is great. So I love this idea of having a time every week to have some intake. Right? That's what you said. And I think that is really wonderful. So do you want to carve out space for that in your week?

E- Oh, I absolutely want to. Like this is fun.

J- Yeah, it's totally fun. It's play. Right? So how, how can we get that on your calendar? What practically do you need to do to make time for that?

E- I think it's putting in those blocks on my Google Calendar, like looking sort of a week ahead, seeing where I have some space. And then it's also telling folks that I'll be offline at that time. I think that's where, like, I could see some tension coming in. There's like that anxiety of not being available to everyone all the time. But I know I can also like, fight that or head off that anxiety if I let people know that, hey, I'm not going to be online Thursday afternoon.

J- Yep, totally. So we're going to do a week in advance, you'll look ahead at your calendar and find some space and time right where you have two or three hours where you can take that time off, and then you tell your clients so they don't bother you but also then you have to take the time, right? They know that you're going to be gone. So I love this. I'm reading this It's all down as your homework. And I think you're right that approaching this as a creative activity is actually it makes it so much more fun, right? You don't have to fit in everybody else's mold. You're like building your business as a creative endeavor. And that, I mean, that's appealing. That's play, right?

E- Talking, I'm realizing how far I got from that sense of play. I mean, business is business. But you've got to have, I think, some creativity to keep moving forward. And I'm curious if this will sort of help those feelings of burnout that I've been having to that, like, it's just been typing in emails and work I enjoy, but there hasn't been much space for creativity in my business recently.

J- Yeah. And I think that's important, right? We need both. We need both the stability and those regular clients that don't take up much bandwidth. But then we also need the stuff that's like, Ooh, this is fun. Right? And I know, you also mentioned in some of the stuff you sent me before, we talked doing some content strategy stuff. So I would love for you to think about that, too. Because it sounds like that is also an opportunity to be very creative with your current clients, even if you offered something like this right? Sort of this big picture view. So I would toss that in the bucket to have something to think about during that nebulous time, like, what would it look like to add that service in? And who would you talk to? And how could you make it actually enjoyable, and get paid well for it, right? Because those things, the consulting work is often highly paid, which we love. We want you to get you something that's like five hours a week, $100 an hour, that would be a perfect fit. So tossing that one in the bucket to to think about, okay? And then I'm just gonna say, putting on the backburner for the next month, this idea of needing to fill that client spot, if you can, you know, deal with that financially, I think, would be great for giving your brain some space. Right? That's what's gonna help with this burnout too.

E- Yeah, I think that's sort of essential. I've been thinking go, go go. But like taking the time upfront, it's an investment in myself and investment in my business. And I imagine if I've just found someone to fill that spot now, like, I'm not really solving the problem, or it's a stopgap measure on finding clients in the future.

J- Yep, exactly. you kind of need to be able to step back and see the forest. Right? Right now you're like in the trees, and you'll just go buy another tree. Right? Whereas if you're out of the forest, you know, you can see the whole big picture. And I think that's super important. So thank you, I'm, this has been great stuff. I really appreciate your honesty. And I'm super excited to see what you come up with, like all the bad jokes, all of the bad bios, like I'm very here for that. If we were working together, I would tell you, you have to send me all of your worst first drafts all these things, right? Just because that's part of the process. And things are rarely as bad as you think they are. Right? You can always edit them, but just getting it down on paper. I'm excited to see what you come up with. I think it's going to be fun.

E- Oh, no, I appreciate that. And this has been— It's a relief. I think diving into my business is not as scary as I thought it would be.

J- Yeah it can be fun, right? I think that feeling of resistance is often because we're resisting being pushed into a space we don't want to be in, right? And it's kind of a relief to be like, oh, okay, I could actually, I could pick, I could have some sense of agency. So I'm gonna send you a chunk of homework. We do have a business planning workbook that can be kind of helpful to think through. So I'll send you that. We've been sending that to everybody. And then like I said, I actually have a template for having hard conversations with clients. So I'm gonna send you that. And then we also— Wudan taught a workshop on designing a website. And so there's a whole worksheet that goes along with kind of figuring out what you want to put on your website. So I will send that to you as well. And we'll also send that to our listeners. So you're gonna have all sorts of stuff to do, if you want it, during some of this investment time. 

E- Yeah, I think that's going to be such a good starting point. 

J- Awesome. Okay. Well, Emma, thank you for your time. And we will, I'll talk to you later. Okay? 

E- Yeah, thanks so much. 

J- Yep. Bye.

W- That was an awesome session. I love when you can hear someone get so excited about not having to be stiff and get to bring their own personality into their work.

J- Totally. I was reading my notes after my session with Emma and I wrote down some things, and one of them is "bad jokes." And the other thing was "a taste for boring." And I wrote those things down, because I love it when people can lean into their brands, right? And figure out how to stand out based on who they already are versus who they think they should be.

W- Yeah, it's obviously a risk to show up as 100% yourself, especially as a woman, I think it's tough to do. And it's also worth it.

J- Yeah, totally. I think this writing industry has so much noise. And a lot of times it feels like you should be talking about yourself in a certain way. I had a client recently who took a whole class on how to send LOIs, or how to send out cold emails to people you want to work with. And the class came with a process that included a template and an offer for an hour of free work that you would send to someone. So she sent that template out as an email, and she got a response which was exciting. But then she said she got on the phone with the person. And it was really tough because the person basically expected her to be someone else. Like they expect her to be the person who taught the class because those were the words she'd written. And her skill set, and I would say her sort of unique offering, is something else entirely. Right? So all of that is to say, I just think it really pays to show up as your authentic self. It's less fake. And I think it's a little bit easier. There's less pressure.

W- Yeah, honestly, I think it makes it easier to find clients too, because you can tell who's a good fit. And they'll likely hire you because of your unique personality and expertise.

J- Exactly. So in the conversation with Emma, you heard that I gave her homework. And if you're a Patreon member, you're going to get all that homework as well. So she's going to do those business planning worksheets, which I think we're going to recommend in every episode, and we'll link to them in the show notes. But she is also going to work through our worksheet that will help her redesign and revamp her website. And because we recorded this a few weeks ago, she's actually going to revamp her website in time for the launch of this podcast episode. So what you see will be her brand new version, which I think it's pretty fun.

W- I actually just updated my website.

J- Oooh, how did it go?

W- I mean, it's not momentous. Nothing. Nothing is really momentous at this point. I built out a speaker page for myself, I updated my CV and made other small tweaks. A month or two ago, my web page was giving me like, a lot of grief because I couldn't transfer domains and kicking my web page back to like, version one of it back in 2014. It was mortifying.

J- I think I need to change mine, too. I do think our websites are like living, breathing things. Like you're right that it's never really monumentous. It's just little changes, right? So I changed my mind, I changed my mood, I changed my business. And thus then I changed my website, it feels very constant to me.

W- Totally. I also really appreciated that you assigned Emma to play.

J- Yeah, if you're familiar with The Artist's Way, which I have probably talked about at least a few times this season, you will be familiar with the idea of an artist date. And it's basically an assignment to do something really playful and fun. So I assigned Emma to do that, we're going to include a worksheet about that for Patreon members, too. And you will get as well a list of journaling questions that will help you to tune in to what you love and what makes you unique. So all of this is a part of a little package of resources to help you market yourself. I think it is a good one.

W- All right, Jenni, anything else for today?

J- Nope. I think that is it. So we will see you all in two weeks. And thanks as always to our Patreon members for supporting us this season is made possible entirely by you. So stay tuned for updates on events for the summer, this fall, plus coaching options and you know, all the other things that Wudan and I get excited about and come up with and want to offer to y'all.

W- I love it. All right, I will talk to you soon. Bye, Jenni.

J- Bye Wudan.

W- Season Three of The Writers' Co-op is made possible by you, our listeners. Susan Valot is our editor and Jen Monnier works as our producer. And the show is written and co-hosted by me, Wudan Yan and Jenni Gritters.