Another Ask Us Anything
SEASON 6, EPISODE 7:
Today we’re running our last live episode of the season! Jenni will be stepping away from TWC to focus on her family and health, and Wudan will carry on with managing the community and future iterations of the show. If you haven’t joined our Patreon program yet, please do – the Slack channel is always growing and a great place to find work, get advice, and meet other freelancers.
Today’s episode is a Q&A. We talk about how to break into this industry if you don’t have a ton of experience or want to change your niche, where your energy is best focused during slow work seasons, the things we’ve learned from taking long leaves of absence from work, and how many hours a freelancer can reasonably spend on creative projects in one day.
Full Transcript Below:
Jenni Gritters- Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Writers' Co-op.
Wudan Yan- I'm Wudan.
Jenni Gritters- and I'm Jenni!
Wudan Yan- This is the last original episode for this season!
Jenni Gritters- And it is a crowd favorite, a short and sweet episode based on questions from our listeners.
Wudan Yan- Awesome. Let's jump right in. What is our first question?
Jenni Gritters- So our first questioner says: "I want to break into a new type of writing where I have a lot of confidence, but not much experience, Should I lower my rates, or is there a better way to gain credibility with my clients in a new area?" What do you think about this one Wudan?
Wudan Yan- I would say that building credibility and having to compromise your rates probably are not at odds with one another. Skills are also transferable, so depending on what type of writing you're going to and from, you might be more well-suited for your new service area or beat than you think.
Jenni Gritters- This feels like a limiting belief to me, right? The idea that if you're new at something, you have to do it for less pay. But I was recently working with a client who, I think was dealing with this situation—she felt like she didn't have enough experience. But when we looked at her portfolio, she did. She had done a ton of writing. And even if it wasn't in the exact topic area that she wanted to move into, or it wasn't for a client that she felt like was really prestigious, there was a lot of proof that she could handle tough topics, that she was a good writer. It was like way more than enough, but she hadn't seen it that way. So I would say to this person: It might be helpful to ask someone outside of your bubble—not your best friend or your partner or your family member, but someone who can be pretty objective in the situation—to look at your background and help you pick examples of your work that might apply to the situation. I love that you have confidence, so I think part of it is just leaning into that. But your work, I would guess, might stand for itself more firmly than you think
Wudan Yan- I would say that if I'm trying to break into a new service, I will look at my current client roster—and that's a bunch of people who I've worked with for quite a while and already trust me to do quality work—and tell them that I basically want to switch lanes. Some of them have been really receptive to it, or they've helped me find clients in their networks who would be a better fit for what I wanted to offer. And as far as rates go, I still think it's important for freelancers to peep that business plan, and see what rates they need to be bringing in, like maybe on their lower end to still hit their business targets, and then work their way up.
Jenni Gritters- I agree. Lower rates aren't really the answer to this question. At least, I think everyone knows that that's our perspective. Sometimes I will tell people: “Okay, do like one low-paid project. Maybe one unpaid project if you really have absolutely nothing in your portfolio.” But it should be a tool to help you move forward, not the standard practice. You use that one project, those two projects as evidence of what you can do. And then like you said, you slowly work your way up the pay ladder over time, keeping in mind those rates that you need to hit to sustain your business. I think experience is always going to be those like slow, incremental steps forward.
Wudan Yan- I once worked with a coaching client who had a ton of expertise writing about hospitality and travel. And they wanted to move into writing about health and just felt vastly unqualified. And so I asked them if they had produced pieces that were travel AND health adjacent. They thought about it for a second, and the answer was ultimately...yes! So let those pieces at this intersection help guide your transition.
Jenni Gritters- Yeah, it's about skills that are transferable, like you said. Then if you really, really come up short, my answer is do a few quick targeted projects to break into that area. But for most people that I've worked with, that isn't 100% necessary. Okay, next question. This person says, and I love this one: "I am giving myself one month to work on the backend of my business between the last day of my full-time job and going to a full-time capacity with my writing and editing clients. I've been moonlighting as a freelancer for at least two and a half years while also working full-time, so I want to take this break to recover from burnout while also taking on more client work. Any recommendations for things I should prioritize during this month, while working primarily on my business instead of client projects? If you were to make this pivot now, what do you wish you would have done differently when you transitioned to being a full time freelancer?" I love this question. I want everyone to take a full month to polish up the back end of their freelance business. But I know that's a luxury. I wish we could all do it. Wudan, how would you use that time?
Wudan Yan- Rest? Nap? Put away some of that energy during this time—during which you're planning to be very intentional with what you do. The caller mentioned burnout, which raises a flag for me, because I think burnout or just frustration can come quite frequently once you switch to full time freelancing. So maybe you don't have to, "work" a full week. Maybe it's three hours a day, maybe it's an hour or two every day, and the rest of the time is spent on you recharging yourself.
Jenni Gritters- We talked last season a lot about this, about slow periods in your business. I will link to that slow seasons episode in the show notes. Because you're right, Wudan, it make sense to rest, and it makes sense to embrace the slow times a little bit. Ultimately, you don't need 40 hours a week to business plan. I think it's a lot better to fill up your energy reserves, and then use that focus—use that energy—for a few smaller sessions to do business stuff. I do think it's so, so smart to be intentional at the outset of business building. I like that you are giving yourself this space between the full time job and freelancing. A list of things I would do practically would be: Define your values, so you know why you're doing this work, why you want to freelance. Otherwise, you're going to, like you said, burnout. Consider how much time you want to take off annually and create a financial plan that includes that.
Wudan Yan- We have a business course to help you through all of this kind of stuff.
Jenni Gritters- We do. It is linked in the show notes. I will also say I would suggest gathering testimonials from folks you've worked with in the past, polish up your website. Have a few people provide feedback on your website, too. Maybe create a social media plan if marketing is part of your business model and you want to be talking publicly about what you're doing. That can involve either scheduling out content or just being intentional about what you're sharing, like knowing what your sort of ethos is online. This is boring, but I would also use the time to make sure that your business license is renewed, that your financial systems are bulletproof, and that your expenses are all filed for the upcoming tax year. Basically, like getting all your ducks in a row. What else would you add to that list, Wudan?
Wudan Yan- This is a great time to have discovery calls with clients that you've been meaning to reach out to, dreaming of reaching out to. Now is the time, when you're not completely bogged down in the day-to-day of running a business full time. Okay. On to the next question, which is: "I'd love to hear more about the specifics of how you prepare for extended time off—long hiking trips or maternity leave, for example. I know you've talked about it in some past episodes, but I'd love to hear more about your experiences. How do you set this up with recurring clients, how it felt, what worked well, advice or things you would do differently." We will link to our episode on taking caregiving leave in the show notes, since we did talk about that a few months ago. But Jenni, why don't you start? What are your thoughts here?
Jenni Gritters- I had to sit with this one for a little bit during scripting, because there's the surface level answer here, which I think we have talked about already in that caregiving episode. It's things like taking your clients—you know, having direct conversations with them before you leave (about three months before), telling them what your plan is, making a financial plan, reconnecting with people about four to six weeks before your return, so you come back to, you know, a decent amount of work, seeing if there's a paid leave program that could cover you if you're taking medical or parental leave. But I think the other part of this question, which is the part that give me pause, is how it felt. What worked well? And that is worth addressing, because we haven't really done that yet. So, Wudan, how would you answer that, regarding your through-hike this summer? How did it feel, and what worked?
Wudan Yan- This summer, I took five weeks off to walk Washington on the Pacific Crest Trail. And I was actually pretty impressed by how things worked out with my work and figuring out work, while taking an entire five weeks off. It was a sprint to get to the start of that, as I had so many projects that literally wrapped up the day before I took a train down to Oregon. Coming back, though, I kind of knew it would be a transition. I just really was not sure what kind of transition. When you're hiking 20 miles a day, thoughts about work don't really creep in. I was very focused on survival, and so if we think about my needs, I wasn't worried about self-actualizing through my career. Lots of through-hikers talk about post-trail depression. And so I didn't know how my mental health would be when I got off trail. So I just gave myself a few buffer days. In fact, I gave myself a full week or so between getting off trail and going back to work. And I want to make these buffer days off more of a priority. Even if I'm coming back from a vacation. It just feels so nice to have an extra day or so to do all my laundry, clean the house, get groceries, life things, rather than immediately catapult myself into work. And yes, count these buffer days into your vacation days. But very honestly, I would say going through such an intense and rewarding experience offline made me question how I want to incorporate work into my life generally. I'm still working on finding that ideal balance. What about you, Jenni, with regards to parental leave?
Jenni Gritters- Truthfully, I think, you know, this is my second time around taking parental leave while freelancing. It felt more stressful this time. During my first parental leave, both my husband and I got paid state benefits, which made a big difference. This time around, I did, but he didn't. So every week off was kind of like burning a financial hole, which, to be frank, we're still kind of building ourselves out of. So as a result, I ended up taking on just one fact-checking project, which actually, like surprised me in that it was really nice to have something to work on. So ironically, despite planning really aggressively for this full 16 weeks of no work, I was actually not fully off for 16 weeks. And I actually think it was kind of good for my mental health. It was unexpected. And, you know, it's worth saying, like, having a child does not make for a restorative 16 weeks. I wasn't sleeping. I had at a new baby. I mean, it's a joyful time, but it's also really hard. So from a learning perspective, taking time away from work is important. And I think that is true, even if it doesn't feel good or restful in the most traditional sense. I've had this experience a lot, actually. I'll take a two week vacation, and I think it takes some time to really get out of work mode so drastically. It's not comfortable, but it's worth it for the perspective it gives you. And I think we do all need these periods of not just being fully focused on work. What did work for me well, logistically, to answer that part of the question, was contacting clients six weeks out. I came back to a full roster of work, which was very stressful, but important for our finances, too. So Wudan, what about the other part of this question? Is there anything you would have done differently when planning leave for your hike?
Wudan Yan- Yeah, I want to talk about having things to come back to, because I think that's worth diving into. It's very important for me, because otherwise, I will just continue running around outside, knitting, and pursuing my hobbies that do not require my laptop. But I also find a deeper purpose with work, for better or worse. So sometimes, my setup is to come back to—who knows—two to three pretty easy, discrete projects that I don't have my identity wrapped around. Nothing too intense. Short content pieces, but anything to rev and lubricate that work engine up again. And I don't want anything insane, because I don't want to burn off all that energy that I had just recouped from time off. So I'd say find some work that feels good and go easy on yourself.
Jenni Gritters- I like that answer. I think it's been important for me too. You slow roll back into the business with stuff that's easy. It's a really good piece of advice.
Wudan Yan- Yeah. There's no shame in taking on easy work. All right, here's the last question, and this I find pretty interesting: "I'm pretty good about tracking my time, both paid project and unpaid business development and administrative time. Even so, at the end of the week, I'm only ever hitting 20 to 25 hours total. And on a good week, 75% of that is paid. I've looked at my time tracker to figure out what's happening here. And other than starting earlier, it looks like my downtime between tasks really seems to add up. I'm not allowed to place rate-wise where this makes sense. What am I missing here in terms of time management? Jenni, what problems if any, do you see here?
Jenni Gritters- I see no problem. Honestly, my answer is that I don't actually think there's anything wrong with this situation. And I don't think you're missing anything. Most freelancers I know—and I've worked with hundreds, and you know, we've both been really candid about our experiences—most people can only work like 20 to 25 hours max, especially if it's heavy creative work. Some people do work more. But a lot of us can only sustain that creative energy for like two to three hours max per day.
Wudan Yan- Yeah, I agree with this. I work a four day workweek. So if I have five or six billable hours in a day, it means my total working hours are spanning a seven to eight hour workday.
Jenni Gritters- If I was working with this person in a coaching session, I would probably ask how they feel about this situation. Because I'm hearing in this question some guilt and some uncertainty. Why? Right? My question is why. If this 25 hour workweek is a problem, which it sounds like maybe it is, based on the money, then I would start to look at what the types of work are that are in this person's mix. Are you only doing creative work that can't be sustained for long hours? And is there a way to sort of shuffle the deck a little bit and pick up other kinds of projects that use other parts of your brain? Like, that might increase the number of hours you can work, if you want to work more hours than this.
Wudan Yan- This is partly why we talk about varying your service offerings. And I think part of the conversations about diversification that gets lost is that not varying your services can lead to creative burnout, if the one service or a few services that you offer are very creatively intense. Doing all of one thing can be tough, and it often makes you less productive. Ideally, if you need to work 30 hours a week to hit your financial goals, then you might want to vary that kind of work you're doing. Some of it can be easier. Some of it can be less creative or require less of an emotional investment.
Jenni Gritters- I think it was during season one that we often said “the magic is in the mix,” and I still stand by that. Wudan, do you have any thoughts about the question here, about downtime between tasks?
Wudan Yan- Yes. So the person calling in mentions that downtime seems to really add up. So if I were coaching them, I would probably really investigate how they're spending that time in a very minute and detailed way. So what are the small tasks that are adding up? Are they trying to log hours AND do discovery calls and send introductory emails, and...and... and? Is there an opportunity to batch tasks? So one simple thing I do so I'm not spending all day responding to emails is I just check them twice a day—once in the morning, another at the end.
Jenni Gritters- Yeah, so smart. And I think this is a really good idea. Do an audit of what is happening between the larger tasks. Like, the first step of all of this is always awareness. See if there's a way to bunch them up. Notice what is happening. Notice... I mean, maybe you're so exhausted, that those breaks are lasting a while because you need them, right? Mostly, this question does feel, in general, like it's about having permission to work the way you want to work. You don't have to clock 40 hours each week to be a productive or sustainable freelancer. That's part of the freedom of why we do this. And on that note, that brings us to the end of today's episode.
Wudan Yan- We will run one more throwback episode and then this season will be officially wrapped up. And I do want to say we have a monthly newsletter that dives into the day of the life of freelancers who so many things. And I think working on that newsletter and editing it has been so fun to see how people structure their workdays. And the 40 hour workweek is a farce, maybe.
Jenni Gritters- Yep, absolutely. So if you are a Patreon member, you will receive that newsletter. And we want to say thank you, as we reach the end of this season, for your support. As always, we could not do this without you.
Wudan Yan- As always, you can stay in touch with us on our community, which you can get access to on the All-Access level on Patreon. Sign up anytime at patreon.com/twcpod.
Jenni Gritters- Thanks for everything, everybody, and we will talk to you soon. Bye Wudan.
Wudan Yan- Bye, Jenni!
Jenni Gritters- Thanks so much for listening to the Writers' Co-op. This season is hosted by me, Jenni Gritters, and Wudan Yan. It was produced by Jen Monnier and edited by Susan Valot.
