The Subtle Art of Saying No
EPISODE 8:
Saying no is just as critical to running a freelance business as saying yes. You can't say yes to the right opportunities if you're filling up your time with assignments that don't pay well, or where clients mistreat you.
This week, Wudan and Jenni address reasons why you might say no to a freelance assignments (including if the pay rate is lower than you'd usually charge, if the project presents ethical dilemmas, or if your schedule is too full to allow you the time you need to do good work). We talk about how to say no without breaking off the relationship completely, so you can leave the door open for working together in the future.
Because saying no is tough, we've also called on veteran freelance writers, editors and journalists Brent Crane, Lesley Evans Ogden, Josh Sokol, Emily Krieger, and Alice Driver. In this episode, they offer tips for turning a yes into a no, and they talk about why saying no is so important to their business models.
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Full Transcript Below:
W- Welcome to The Writer’s Co-op, a business podcast for freelance writers everywhere! We’re your co-hosts! I am Wudan Yan.
J- And I’m Jenni Gritters.
W- This week on the podcast, we are going to dig into the art of saying no.
J- by now, we’ve talked about finding opportunities to say yes to….
W- … but saying no is also critical in running a freelance business
J- totally. You can’t say yes to something if you’re filling up your time with assignments that don’t pay well, or where the clients mistreat you.
W- We’re still living in coronatimes, so we actually went back and forth about how (and when) to talk about this topic. We know it’s even harder to say no to work right now.
J- Agreed. It’s a challenge! But with all that’s going on, we also think it’s important to stand your ground and make sure that the opportunities you DO have make you feel valued and fit your financial needs as much as possible.
W- Jenni, want to share a few recent examples where you had to say no to an assignment?
J- Yes! I’m actually going to talk about a recent thing, which happened a few weeks ago right smack in the middle of coronavirus. I’ve been talking to an editor who I’d love to work with. We have mutual connections and have been chatting for several months, and she invited me to pitch. I sent over some ideas, then she let me know about their typical rates. They have a low rate for trial assignments, but then the rate doesn’t jump into the range of what I usually charge even after that point. She was offering $150, which for me allows for about 3 hours of work given my usual rate of $50/ hour. So I said no but asked her to let me know if her rates end up looking more flexible in the future!
W- Oy. Could you have done that work in three hours? Curious how she responded to that.
J- I couldn’t have done the stories I pitched in three hours, sadly. And she said their rates are set. But, as one of our coaching clients said to me yesterday: there are easier ways to make $100, and writing a 1,000 word story that requires 3 interviews at least and multiple revisions isn’t worth $150. It just can’t be.
I know a lot of news outlets shut down or have cut their freelance budgets. So keep that in mind, if the offer had been slightly below my normal rates, I might have taken it so I could get a byline in a new publication and work with this editor… but only spending 3 hours on the stories I’d pitched wouldn’t have given me time to do my due diligence and I’d be afraid of making mistakes or not having time to do my best work.
Wudan, what about you? Tell us a story of saying no.
W- This is also a coron-NO story. Recently, an editor at an international publication that I have not worked with reached out to me to do a story about coronavirus. The assignment sounded interesting enough, and my first thought was actually: maybe I’ll take it. But the story they proposed to me was also pretty ambitious and it wasn’t until the stage where I almost* got the green light... that I asked about pay, and they could only pay 50cents a word. I told the editor that my rate is usually $1/word, and if there was any negotiation upwards. He said no, so I ultimately passed.
I mean, he was asking for a story that would pay around $500, require 4 interviews from experts, so including finding those sources, reading my notes over, that would take four hours already. It would take probably two hours for me to outline and write, and maybe a little more to edit. But I’ve never worked with this editor or outlet before, and I don’t think this pandemic is a good time for me to try out new publications. So, I ultimately figured, if I wanted to stick to my $50/rate, it would ultimately be a bit of a gamble. I said no, and hope that we could work together on something else in the future where the rate would work out for me.
J- I think we’re similar in that we actually math out the work an assignment might take, to see if it’s a fit. I love hearing you talk about the numbers.
W- I almost always math it out in my head like that!
J- What we’re talking about actually goes back to what we discussed in episode 2 -- which feels like a lifetime ago -- on determining your rates. If you know what your hourly rate is for a particular service, you can also get a sense of the maximum amount of time you’ll spend on an assignment, given the assignment fee. This makes it easier to know if you’re going to say yes and no, based on money.
W- For sure. Also, the interesting thing for me in that case was that the byline did not mean very much. I think if I were a year or two greener, that might have figured more into my calculus. Of how much that prestige mattered.
J- I do think there’s a puzzle here, when I think about saying no. For me, it’s easiest to say no when something doesn’t pay my usual rates. It’s an obvious, “this doesn’t work for me” situation. But I’m also considering placement (like, does placing a story at this publication bolster my credentials enough to get me more, better assignments down the line) and consistency (or whether or not that assignment could turn into regular work). Occasionally, I’m also considering passion: Do I care a lot about the issue or project? I might take a lower rate if something is consistent or will bolster my reputation in a way that will lead to more work. And sometimes there’s a gut feeling about working with someone that leads me to say no, too. We’ll talk about that in a bit.
Wudan, do you have a list of things you consider when you’re saying no, beyond payment?
W- Yeah, I like to do my research on new clients, so I’ll definitely say no if an editor who I’d likely be working with has a history of ghosting on writers. I’m not down with that. Like I’ve said before, I think about the relationship between a writer and an editor as a relationship, and good communication is key. I’ll also say no if I do my research and that client has trouble paying people on time. With coronavirus, I feel like I have even less time to be screwed around by a publication, so I’d rather do my due diligence beforehand.
J- It’s sort of like an hour of research and asking around now can save your butt later.
W- Absolutely. Jenni, what do you think the easiest way to say no is?
J- Honestly, the easiest no for me is just to not work with someone in the first place.
W- I was thinking the same
J- On Study Hall, on calls for pitches on Twitter or Facebook groups this week, I’m seeing publishers offering low rates. Like, $200 for a feature or $400 for a feature… in print! It’s so rough.
W- It’s not so much the editor’s fault, because their budgets are set. But I think the easiest way to say no is really just to not work with them. Like don’t pitch them in the first place.
J- Agreed. If you write them off, then, sure, you’re limiting your pool of possible clients, but at least the clients in your remaining pool will help you pay your bills.
W- I also see a lot of writers making the mistake of trying to negotiate with publications that don’t pay that much. In my experience: it will probably be very rare for a publisher to double their rates, sometimes they can go to 1.5x the proposed rate, but if you know that’s their limit on a freelance submission, don’t pitch them a story that requires super heavy lifting
J- Definitely. I think it’s super valuable to talk to your colleagues who you’ve met through building relationships, like Wudan said …
W- … see our last episode on networking for more on that …
J- … and talk about these clients! Who are they? What are their priorities? What’s it like to work with them? Is it possible to negotiate? What’s the edit process like?
W- yes. Before I pitch, I want to know how different publications pay, how much flexibility they have in negotiating, the pitfalls in their contract, how amenable they are to negotiating contracts, all the things!
J- Wudan’s Encyclopedia to Freelancing. Wait, you should actually publish that! I’d read it.
W: Basically. But like, I need that information to make an informed decision on whether or not working with someone new is worth it or not.
J- It’s super smart.
W- I think being able to say no is related to how strongly you stick with your boundaries, too. Whether that’s how much you’re willing to compromise on a rate for a story if the prestige might be worth it, or like, if you’re ok getting paid a rather high project rate if it’s a rights grab, for instance.
J- I agree. I also want to say that I’m a people pleaser, so turning down work is really hard for me. I actually made it one of my big goals for year two of my business because I was listening to a business coach and they said: At some point, the only way to grow your business is to say no to the opportunities that don’t work for you, so you can say yes to better opportunities. If you clog your schedule with low-paying assignments with clients who don’t treat you well and take up all your time, you won’t have the bandwidth to say yes to ambitious, high-paying assignments with clients who could stabilize your business for years to come.
But even after I made it a goal, I still struggle to ACTUALLY say no when it comes down to it. I think I’m getting better, but I really don’t like people to be mad at me. The reality is that these people probably dont care when I say no! It’s not about me! They’re probably not mad. But it still freaks me out. I literally have to write out pro and con lists for assignments sometimes, to convince myself that they’re not a good fit.
W- Jenni, I’m really really proud of you for all the times you’ve said no!
J- Thank you! You too. It’s nice to hear that sometimes - and is a good thing to tell yourself, or a colleague.
W- We want to recognize early in this episode that saying no is a big big powermove. It takes practice, and it’s something that a lot of seasoned freelancers still struggle with. (And if you need practice, try it out with a friend who is also a writer and mock up scenarios! Talk to yourself in the mirror!)
J- We also recognize it’s a privilege to say no, and it’s harder to say no now, during a time when it feels like there’s less work.
W- Because this is tough, this week we asked some of our experienced freelancer colleagues to send in voice memos about why they say no, and how they do it. Here’s our first submission:
Josh Sokol- I’m Josh Sokol, a freelance science journalist calling in from Boston. The assignments you get as a science reporter are pretty specific. A lot of the science stories are pegged on a new study coming out later that week, like a new paper. I’m talking about, like, 700 words, you have to do some research, you have to do maybe 2 or 3 phone interviews.
When I get an assignment like that I say “yes” if it seems like an upgrade over what I was planning to do that week and the money is good, which it often is on quick turnaround science stories. Or I’ll say yes if I’m genuinely excited by the story. Or I’ll say “yes” if I really want to develop a relationship with that editor who gave me that assignment or with the publication. Then I say “no” if these conditions aren’t true. Sometimes also I’ll decline if I think another writer is going to get a similar assignment at another publication and do a better job than me. For me, the big danger in saying “yes” is that I’ll be using this quick assignment and the money and the structure it provides as a way to avoid putting in the work on an aspirational project that takes a while to build. Like, instead of being proactive on trying to build a story that could net me money, prestige and passion all at the same time, that I would just be reacting to whatever has landed in my inbox on that particular day.
W- Josh’s call-in really gets into the heart of business priorities. I like that he weighs those priorities, like: is there something I should be doing longer-term? Or, might I take this assignment that’s in front of me right now because it’s what I have --- and I possibly need the money, or for other reasons?
Brent Crane- Brent Crane, San Diego. In 2016 I was living in Cambodia, and was assigned a feature that quickly got complicated. It was for an online magazine and I was offered 700 dollars to write about a rich pedophile who had just been arrested after a global manhunt. It was exhausting reporting it, both logistically and emotionally, and after a couple of weeks I had to break the contract. Ultimately I just couldn't bring myself to report such a piece for a fee that small.
J- Oh my god, that story sounds like a trip. But also, that’s a valid decision to start on a project, realize that it’s going to expand beyond what your project rate would allow you to do -- and do well -- and realize you need to cut out. Scope creep is real! And freelancers really are forced to look at the equation as time equals money. The more time you spend on a project, the less you’re usually making.
Lesley Evans Ogden- Hi, it’s Lesley Evans Ogden here. What are some things that I say no to? One thing I said no to in the last 6 months is a pr firm reached out to ask if I could write some stories that would include links in them to corporations or businesses that they wanted to promote. That seemed kind of sneaky to me and it was a no-no because it crossed an ethical boundary that I wasn’t willing to cross. I do almost exclusively journalism, and I would consider doing corporate copywriting if, and only if, it doesn’t compromise my ability to write the kinds of journalistic pieces that I enjoy writing.
Late in 2019, I was also approached by a government agency who wanted me to compile a report for them. Although the money probably would have been good, I said “no” because I frequently interview scientists from that agency and I didn’t want to put myself in conflict of interest or compromise my ability in the future to write stories that drew from this research agency and their work. I also say “no” to almost any writing that pays less than $1 USD per word, with very few exceptions. And the other thing I almost always say “no” to are opportunities that come with bad contracts.
As a freelancer, a bad contract is a big red flag. It tells you that your professionalism and integrity are not being respected. I have to say, though, that when I first started freelancing, it was hard to say “no” to new opportunities. But as my career as a freelancer has progressed, I’ve learned to be more protective of my work/life balance, though my family might laugh at me for suggesting that such a thing exists. But I am pretty good now at protecting my evenings and weekends as family time, so when my plate is already full and a new opportunity comes along, I’ll most often pass along that opportunity to a freelancer, friend or colleague that I know and trust. I like to pay it forward.
W- Lesley more or less touched on everything we’ve said, and I’m so glad she brought up the conflicts of interest. YOU-- that is: everyone listening to this podcast who is freelancing or thinking of freelancing -- get to decide what your boundaries are. Whether these are ethical boundaries, or your boundaries with regards to rate: stick with them, it drives your business model.
J- Definitely. I once was in talks with a company about doing a project together, but it turned out that they wanted me to put my name on stories that were sponsored, and the sponsored stories would only use sources from a report put out by an insurance company. I said no. Ethical considerations matter, especially if you’re going brand work. You get to make your rules and stick to them.
Okay, we have two more, we are going to play them together because I think the take-aways are sort of similar.
Alice Driver- This is Alice Driver, I’m in San Miguel de Allende, Mexico in self-quarantine. I had a producer at Reveal from The Center for Investigative Reporting reach out to me in 2017. She had read some of my work at Longreads and she was interested in me producing a radio story. It was my first radio story, and when I received the contract it had a clause that was a rights grab for any book or movie rights that would come out of the work. At the time, I had a book agent in New York who was interested in the same story. I had not signed with her, but I did contact her and she offered to review the contract that Reveal sent me, and she sent recommendations for changes to Reveal and they pushed back. But I do think that because I had the support of an agent that I was able to maintain the rights to my own work to a future book or movie. What I learned from that was to use all resources at hand.
Emily Krieger- My name is Emily Krieger, and I’m a freelance fact-checker, writer and editor in Seattle. There are two big reasons why I say no to jobs and they are: there’s no time to do the job properly and in a way that I’m proud of. If that’s the case, that I will have to slap-dash something together, then no thanks. It’s not going to help me to put my name on that. It’s not going to help everyone else involved. If that’s the case — if I think, wow, that’s really too much work in too little time, then I let the person who’s making the offer know that and decide whether they’ve got some wiggle room. Honestly, more often than not, there is wiggle room. People can find ways to get creative. And I think it’s also a relief for them that somebody said “oh my god, this schedule’s crazy. Can we get more time,” and it didn’t have to be that person. I’ll be the fall gal asking the question, and if we get the time, great. We can have a more humane work schedule. If we don’t, then this was not going to be a good fit for me and my family, because it’s not just about having a sustainable job for myself. It also has to fit my family. I have two little kids, and they depend on me and I have to hold space for them every single day. I can’t just work, work, work, work, every day. I have to make room for all the other parts of life. In a way, having kids has been very clarifying about what my boundaries are and sticking to them.
And back to the other reason why I say no and that’s money. If the pay is too low, and I can’t cover my expenses. Sometimes I have to remind my clients, and include self-employment tax, child care, I’m saving for my retirement, I buy my own computer — all the costs that go into freelance. I consider it a service to the journalism profession to respond to a low-ball offer and tell someone that not only is that a low-ball offer but I can tell you why in a pretty short email, and I can tell you what other outlets or people are paying for comparable work. If that person responds “eh, I can’t pay you that much,” or they don’t respond at all then I don’t consider that a loss because it was never a good fit to begin with, really. And if they do respond and say “yeah, I could pay you more. How about this?” or “How about I just accept what other people are paying you for comparable work and you’ve proposed as the fee,” that’s fantastic. Oh my gosh, I’m so glad I asked because that would be tragic if I just undervalued myself and made not enough money to meet my needs and expenses, and to match my value.
So I guess the point is: Ask. Ask for what you need. Be honest. Be that person who’s being honest about your time and financial needs. If somebody really wants to work with you and they have the budget and the time, that’s a conversation and you can make it happen. If they don’t have flexibility, then it was not a good connection to begin with. And if you find yourself constantly being turned down or constantly overworked for too little money then that is a sign that you have to go back to the business model drawing board and figure out how much money you need to make every month to cover your expenses, and how you go about making that money. It’s hopefully not by chronically being overworked and underpaid. That’s where I think it’s really important for journalists to speak up and say “this is what my needs are,” and the publications and people that are hiring freelance journalists to listen. Hopefully the more journalists that share what their needs are, the more we can move the needle to normalizing fair, sustainable wages for journalists.
W- I love these two audio clips because it’s a reminder that even if we’re inclined to say no to something, we might want to ask: is there a way to get to yes? What can we negotiate? For Alice, it was her rights on a story she’s spent significant time on, and for Emily, I like how she laid out the tradeoff between time to complete a project and money.
J- Also, I really relate to what Emily said about having kids, and that changing your priorities. I’m newly back to work after having a baby, Liam is 5 months old now, and I have less time overall-- so the work that I AM doing needs to be paid well, needs to fit in with my family’s schedule, and has to be a pretty smooth process. I’m really conscious of not wasting time because that’s time I can’t get back and want to spend with him. Kids don’t wait for work to get done. It’s a whole new world for me, but has actually given me MORE reasons to say no, and more bravery to stick to my guns with negotiating.
W- I also really really love what Emily said about feeling chronically overworked and underpaid --- and if that’s something anyone who’s listening is experiencing, it’s a good window into going back to your business model drawing board. This is something I think we both talk about with writers we coach. I tell them straight up: “you won’t work for any less than… whatever rate.”
J- Yes, I have people write the number on a sticky note and put it on their computer or desk. THIS IS MY RATE. It helps to see the number when you’re feeling desperate. You can do better. I love what Emily said: “I dont consider that a loss because it was never a good fit to begin with.”
I also think we should talk a little bit about saying no based on work-life balance, because Emily said some interesting things about that. Wudan, have you ever said no because you wanted to protect your personal life?
W- Definitely. Like if it’s summer in Seattle and I currently have a weekday with no calls, I’d rather go hiking than spend a day on a computer. Time away from work is just as important as time that I’m working. Perhaps more valuable because hiking helps me clear my head and get focused. What about you, Jenni?
J- I actually end up having to say no to projects quite often because of this, moreso now that I have a kid. I don’t work on Fridays because I’m hanging out with Liam, so that automatically limits some opportunities. I have also been trying to prioritize hiking once per week with my family, and oftentimes that means seeking out product reviews for outdoor gear versus other stories. In order to have time to do that work, I’ve had to say no to some other assignments writing up quick turn news or explainers. Ultimately, the product reviews bring me more joy and allow me to get outside, which matters to me and keeps my brain healthier. It also staves off burn out. But I do have to think hard about which opportunities align with my values.
And I’m learning to notice when I’m “full up” and more work will cause burn out-- although this is definitely a work in progress. I can usually tell when I need a break and I have to be a good manager to myself in those circumstances, which means turning down assignments if they’d mean no breaks. I try to make note of all my assignments in a spreadsheet so I can see when the list gets too long!
W- Hard agree.
J- Wudan, have you ever said no because of red flags in the initial interaction? Like, an editor who’s slow to respond, or something else that could affect your mental health or make the relationship one that’s not worth investing in?
W- I actually can’t think of any. But I have had editors at publications that don’t pay their freelancers on time reach out, and I’ve just straight up said no and please let me know if their payment schedules end up changing to net 30. I wish editors were generally more disclosing about rates upfront in that first email, rather than asking us to spend time developing story ideas and then realizing that we can’t work for, however much.
J- I remember when I started my business, I talked to a couple of women who ran content businesses and they all told me: Trust your gut. You’ll know when something is not a fit.
If I’m honest with myself, I think they’re right: In relationships that haven’t ended up working out in my favor, whether that means a needy client who I eventually have to fire, or an assignment that drags on and on, I usually knew upfront that things could go south but I just ignored the warning signs. For me, early warning signs can be someone who doesn’t specify rates or payment schedules up front, an editor who asks more and more questions without actually solidifying the assignment, a person who’s not respectful of your time (like, they email you at 9 pm or on the weekends and expect a response), or someone who expects work to get done really well and fast for a low rate. All of those things will just keep happening throughout the relationship.
W- Yes, I think this goes back to what we said in an earlier episode about that first assignment being a trial run -- a first date. I’ve learned a lot about how different clients work from that first assignment. If it ends up being a terrible experience on my part, I’ll avoid pitching that publication or working with that editor in the future. We all have the power to not return to an “bad relationship.”
J- Yes! The experiment is my favorite tool. Do ONE test assignment with a new client. Then you can get out if you need to-- and that’s another way to say no, is to try something out with guard rails, and then be able to step away if it’s not a fit.
Wudan, I’m curious about one last thing: how do you follow up with an editor to say “no, maybe next time!”
W- Sooooo this happens in many ways. If I am tapped out for the week, I’ll say “I don’t have capacity to take this on this time, but please do reach out if I can be of help after …. Some date” or: “I don’t think I’m the best person for this given your deadline, but here are a few other writers I would try…” and give those names / contacts. Or… “this rate won’t allow me to do what we proposed in depth, but perhaps we can change the scope of the assignment”... which warrants more of a conversation
J- Yeah, these are all responses that keep the relationship ongoing even when you have to say no. If you’re an All Access member, this week we’ll be sending out a list of ways to say no that won’t sully a relationship. And we’ll send out a little checklist of reasons why you might say no to work, too, so you can put that on your desk and look at it when you’re trying to make a decision. I also wish I could send you all a poster that says: YOU DESERVE TO GET PAID WELL FOR YOUR WORK. Because that’s a big part of this: You are valuable and if you’re not being valued, say no.
W- Also, saying no doesn’t mean you’ll never get an assignment again. You will. Have the confidence to believe in that.
J- It’s all about abundance. There’s enough out there for all of us, and taking the time to pick assignments that are the right fit for you-- that’s what makes freelancing sustainable over the long haul.
W- I hope the take-away from this episode is clear: saying no is a business decision. Done professionally, it does not signify the end of a relationship with an editor or a publication. And it’s actually a necessary part of a successful business.
J- I love it. Also, send us your no stories! We’ve been getting lots of emails lately about your negotiation wins and they truly make our days.
W- Alright. Time to go prioritize our work schedules and assignments. Bye Jenni!
J- Bye Wudan!
