FU, Pay Me
EPISODE 7:
There are few things more infuriating than getting paid late for work you've already done. In this episode, Jenni and Wudan discuss one of the hardest aspects of working as a freelance writer: chasing down unpaid invoices. They offer tips and tricks for getting paid while still keeping your relationships intact, like adding specific clauses into your contracts and pushing for payment upon acceptance rather than publication. Wudan also addresses her popular strategy of charging late fees.
As always, we love hearing from you. What has worked for you in the past when it comes to chasing down late payments? Send us an email or track us down on Twitter!
Email: thewriterscoop2@gmail.com
We've also uploaded several templates into our Writers' Co-op Learning Portal this week, including language that will help you chase down invoices, and some stock language for filing a late fee. If you're a Writers' Co-op All Access or VIP member, you'll get access to those documents as soon as this episode goes live.
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Full Transcript Below:
J- Hey y’all. Welcome to the Writers’ Co-op! A business podcast for freelance writers everywhere
W- We are your co-hosts; I’m Wudan Yan
J- and I’m Jenni Gritters. This week on the show we’re talking about the issue that sparked our interest in starting a podcast in the first place: getting paid!
W- Many people we polled on what to name this podcast were VERY in favour of calling it, “FU PAY ME.” We decided against it, but we knew we still had to at least have an episode with the title. So here we are!
Anyway, Jenni and I talk a lot about chasing invoices, holding your clients accountable for paying you, negotiating higher rates if a payment won’t come in within 30 days, and everything that goes along with that. It’s probably 90% of our text conversations.
J- It’s also the subject of Wudan’s now-famous Medium post, where she detailed how she went about chasing down $5,000 worth of late payments. We’ll link to that in the show notes.
W- I will say, talking about late payments make me pretty mad. So if I get a little more… heated than usual this episode, that’s why!
J- Totally legitimate. I feel the same.
W- And my story of not getting paid on time? Honestly, that’s probably every freelancer’s story. So we have a lot to say about this.
J- In this episode, we’re going to try to offer you some tips and solutions for protecting yourself from late payments, as well as chasing down late payments if you haven’t seen a paycheck yet and you know it’s owed to you.
But to start, let’s jump into story time, which seems to be how we’re beginning all of our podcast episodes these days. Wudan, tell me a story about not getting paid-- and what you did about it!
W- Ha, well, both of us know that stories are effective. Okay, so, what happened was, last May, I went on vacation to Costa Rica for two weeks and came back expecting to be paid about $5,000 in total, from three separate assignments. As a freelancer, nothing is more panic-inducing than not working for two weeks, spending money because vacation, and then coming home to a decent amount of money just… missing.
J- Financial panic is the worst. THE WORST.
So what did you do about that?
W- Well, it was a little surprising. Here’s why. One of them was a client I’ve worked with before, who’s managed to pay me on time. A second had been very good at paying on time in previous, recent months. A third also seemed to be able to pay their freelancers on time. So first I was pissed and then I emailed everyone, very very diplomatically, asking when to expect my payments because they were now passed due. I got lots of wishy washy responses, none of which told me when I would be paid. Every late payment with each client played out a little differently, but I was so fed up about spending so much time following up on payments. So I billed them all a late fee.
J- How much was that late fee?
W- 20%. Some people thought that this was too much, but in reality, it’s not. When clients don’t pay you on time, they’re in essence taking an interest-free loan from you, all the while other things due on a 30-day cycle, such as your rent, utility bill, internet bill, and credit card payments are still… due. There are no exceptions. Has anyone told Chase, “so sorry can’t pay my bill, cool if I pay you 30 days late” without a penalty!?
J- This is exactly why late payments are so maddening! We’re the ones footing the bill. We’ll get into that math later, because I do think it matters here.
W- In the end, all my clients tried to not pay my late fee, or tried to talk me down from my 20% late fee. I got paid… eventually… for both my assignments and the late fees. It was painful, but it was over.
I mean, from this story, the first thing I want to say in terms of advice is that if you’re getting paid late often, the problem probably isn’t you.
J- Yes, this is a huge issue that you’re pretty much guaranteed to face when you’re a freelancer. And real talk: it sucks. In many professions, you get paid before you do the work-- or at least soon after. Or maybe half up front and half once you’ve submitted the final product.
W- Yes! Some designers saw my late fee piece and messaged me to say that they usually use this pay structure.
J- My non-writer friends are consistently astounded when I tell them that I’ve filed a story and I won’t get paid for it for the next two months. It’s unfortunately common to not get paid until 30-45 days after you’ve done your work. This can cause cash flow problems, it’s demoralizing, and it makes it tough to plan.
W- Yes. After a certain point, I’m way less inclined to work with any clients with a reputation of paying late. Some magazines, while well-respected, are horrendous at paying freelancers. A few weeks ago it came out that Outside, for instance, has not paid more than $100,000 to their freelance contributors. I think a few days ago they agreed to pay that amount. But I don’t even know… what to say?!
J- I often feel like the only way to find out about who’s good at paying on time and who’s bad is word of mouth, too. Publications don’t get held accountable, but there will be whispers of a place paying late… and then things blow up, like in the case of Outside. It sucks. It sucks so much.
The big question here is how to protect ourselves, and I think the first thing we should talk about in that regard is actually related to contracts. If you haven’t listened to our full contracts episode-- episode 4 of this season-- it’s worth going back to that. Because your contract is what’s going to give you the power to argue if you aren’t getting paid on time.
Wudan, what are a few payment-related things that you like to build into your contracts?
W- One of the big ones is negotiating payment on acceptance, rather than publication. Which goes along with trying to make sure you get paid within 30 days max, and hopefully before that. Essentially, you want to start that 30 day clock as soon as possible.
For magazines, it’s sort of insane to wait to get paid until publication because that can take months. Some magazine stories of mine have taken more than a year from my pitch getting accepted to the story printing. Pay upon acceptance of a draft is honestly what’s fair, and if that’s not built into the client’s contract, you should argue for it.
J- Some clients won’t want to agree to changing their payment schedules, but talking about getting paid upon acceptance-- or at least invoicing upon acceptance-- is a good place to start. For example, I have a client who pays me 45 days after I’ve submitted my draft to them. That’s just a company policy for all vendors, and not something they’re willing to change. But I did get them to agree to start that 45 days from the time I submit my first draft and have it approved, versus waiting til publication. It cuts down on the time by at least two weeks, which is helpful, since I don’t have control over how long it takes the editors to get through my piece!
Wudan, you have some strategies for upping your rate if they can’t pay you within 30 days, right? Tell me about that.
W- Yeah, I’ve gotten a little creative. One client I worked with last year had a net 90 clause that they couldn’t take out. I knew it wasn’t about the publisher, but their affiliated institution. So I asked if they could add compounded interest to my story fee -- this would in essence build in any interest that they would owe, if they paid within 90 days.
Let me back up a second. I used to tutor SAT Math so I love this stuff. Compounded interest means that every month (or week, or whatever), someone would pay you a fee that’s on top of the updated fee, not the original fee. So if a story is $1000, 10% of that after the first month would raise to $1100. If the client pays in net 60, that fee is 1210, etc. I’ve asked for interest on the fee for any clients with contracts that can’t budget, if their payment terms exceed net 30. I’ve gotten this to work for quite a few clients who can’t change their payment terms because of institutional rules.
J- I think that’s super smart. What’s your experience been with asking for partial payment up front?
W- It’s …. Varied. I can talk about a few things that *have* worked
J- Yes please.
W- I’ve only gotten one client to give me money on commission, kind of. I was about to embark on a 3 week-ish reporting trip to do story for them, so I asked if they could pay the kill fee as an ‘advance,’ since I had an exchange on Twitter with the editor in chief -- who used to freelance -- about this, who was basically like, we don’t do this as a rule, but if you ask, we definitely can! So you bet I asked
J- Of course you did.
W- What I’ve had a lot more success with is getting clients to pay a partial payment. That means, I’ll get a partial payment when I submit a first draft. It’s better than nothing.
Jenni, what about you? Have you negotiated for partial payments, advances, whatever you want to call ‘em?
J- I have a sort of rough story about this. I once was in the running to take on a $10,000 project and they brought me in for a long chat. I made a proposal. And I also asked for one specific thing financially: Half of the payment halfway through the project, and the other half upon the submission of the final pieces of the project -- since the project was supposed to last 6 months.
Well, y’all, they gave the project to another freelancer who had a “more flexible payment mindset.” Literally, that’s what they said to me. So I know first hand that pushing back on payment schedules can be risky, but I also heard from someone else down the line that it was a miserable project where they didn’t value the freelancers who were helping them. And while I’m still a little bitter, I like to think that their response to my negotiation was actually a very clear red flag.
W- Tim Herrera, an editor at the New York Times, said during a webinar about pitching that if any editors ever shame you for anything money related -- whether that’s asking for more money on a project or asking for things within your rights -- should be publicly shamed.
J- That’s hilarious. Also gutsy if anyone actually goes for that?!
W- I’ve never really resorted to public shaming. I don’t find it that useful and am not sure what that accomplishes. But I do appreciate the sentiment. Anyway, with all this partial payment stuff, if you’re an All-Access member, I’ll leave some notes about specific things you want to look for in your contract to protect you from late payments.
J- Here’s another thing I want to talk about, which is something Wudan is rather famous for: Charging late fees. Wudan, walk me through your late fee strategy!
W- It’s not great.
J- Ha, what do you mean by that?
W- Well, if you read my post about chasing late payments, I issued a 20% late fee.
J- That sounds standard.
W- Yeah, in retrospect I should’ve asked for more
J- What do you mean?
W- Well, two of those clients are based in New York City. AND if you’re a publisher based in NYC, you’re on the hook for something that’s called the “Freelance Isn’t Free Act,” which is applicable if you’re a freelancer based in NYC OR* if the client is based in NYC. If you read that Act closely, which I have, multiple times, if a payment is late and the client is based in NYC ***Or*** if you as a freelancer are in NYC, YOU ARE ENTITLED TO double damages. Double damages means that you can basically make your late fee 100% of the project fee.
J- Yikes.
W- Yeah. Last year, I only charged 20%.
J- I actually think it’s helpful to talk through the math here, because like we alluded to before, a client not paying you is basically forcing YOU to take on the interest during the time that you’re waiting.
And this is why you charge a late fee-- you ask THEM to pay for that extra financial burden.
W- Yes, and also you’re billing for the time that you’re taking to follow up with them.
J- So do you put that late fee clause into your contracts, Wudan, or do you just charge them and say it’s a common practice per the Freelance Isn’t Free Act?
W- Yeah, I’ll ask for it in my contracts. Most of the time I won’t succeed, though. So what I do instead is try and make sure contracts say we’ll be paid within 30 days. Usually they’ll be ok w/ that. So if they don’t pay within 30 days I have something to go off of, that’ll be grounds for my late fee. When I file my invoices, I always include a line about a late fee for late payments. And if a client who’s based in NYC doesn’t stipulate net 30 in their contracts, it automatically goes to net 30, because they’re based in NYC and therefore subject to FIFA.
By the way, we will also include a template in the All-Access portal that gives you language for filing a late fee. Because we know this can be scary, and having pre-written language helps when you need to push for the payment you deserve. Jenni, have you ever issued a late fee? How’d it go?
J- I’ve used a late fee only once! I got it into my contract with a new client. They ended up owing me about $50 extra for a $300 payment because they were late. The late fee wasn’t even that high! The language-- and I just looked it up-- was “the Client will incur a fee of 2% of the total fee per day, in addition to the initial fee, after 35 days have passed from the initial invoice submission.” I gave them a 5-day buffer, for shenanigans and to be nice. And they still hadn’t paid me at 40+ days out from my invoice.
They were so upset that they never hired me again, but also I didn’t want to work with them again because the process of getting paid for such a small amount was tough. That clause definitely held them accountable, but it also ruined a relationship. And we should talk about that, too, because I think that’s what we’re all scared of when we push for regular, on-time payments: Not getting future work from that person. Wudan, did you end up working with those pubs again, who you charged a late fee?
W- That’s… insane that they were contractually -- LEGALLY obliged to pay you and yet they put that on you.
J- I know. Like I said before, I think it did make it very clear that I didn’t want to work for them!
W- To answer your question, I now refuse to work with publications who can’t pay me on time. So I haven’t worked with those publications in over a year. I don’t know, there’s just not really a great excuse to not pay your contractors on time. Actually, it’s insanely exploitative. So many publications are so reliant on freelancers because they don’t want to spend more money on staffers with benefits as all that, so yes. Pay your freelancers on time. For me, it comes down to a matter of principles.
J-- For sure: you want to work with clients who value you. And I know that’s a bit of a privileged sentiment, to be able to say no to work. But saying no to working with a client who doesn’t pay you on time is also a smart business practice.
W- Agreed. Your business will do better with a steady income stream, and you’ll be able to work more efficiently if you aren’t always chasing invoices.
J- It’s so much unpaid time! Do you have any strategies for invoice chasing?
W - When I chased down my own invoices I was basically following up every single week. I didn’t care if I was being a nuisance. I deserved to get paid. I sent my deliverables on time, according to the contract that was in place, and I needed to get paid within whatever pay schedule was set forward.
J- I think there’s nothing I hate more than sending those “just reminding you to pay me” emails. I hate sending them. I feel needy, and gross, but I know I have to do it. It pisses me off! And I know it’s not usually the editor who’s at fault, but they’re the one I have to bother. Ugh. It’s just awful. But I use Quickbooks to remind my clients now, so I’m not the one sending the invoice. It comes from my business and professionally says: FU, Pay Me. Now!! Quickbooks also lets me know when an invoice is due, so I don’t have to track that on my calendar. That helps a lot.
W- Yeah, nice to have a reminder. I would just put it manually in my calendar as a reminder to follow up. But because it took so much time for me to chase down those payments, I actually hired an assistant. She looks at all my payments and if anything’s 30 days from being due, she’ll follow up with me.
J- That’s so nice. I get a little bit envious when you talk about your assistant, it makes me want one too!
W- Yeah, I think it’s a good set up. For her, it’s super not emotionally loaded to ask for money, because it’s not her money! I’m paying her that money for my emotional labour. It’s a big privilege to be able to outsource that. It’s been a really great investment and I don’t regret it one bit.
J- For sure. We’ll include another template in the All-Access portal with a follow-up note on payment, too; if you need to chase down a payment, you can just copy and paste that language into your email.
Okay, Wudan, what do you recommend people do if they’re owed a big sum and it’s been a while, like one or two months out from the due date? Not just a little bit overdue, but way past overdue.
W- I mean every day feels like a year so maybe two months is really pushing it. Honestly, once the client is late and is noncompliant within paying the fee when you go and remind them is a good time to be like “hey my contract specified net 30 payment,” if you can’t pay me ASAP I will have to charge a late fee. If they won’t budge on the late fee, like some of my clients from last year, I would recommend finding an attorney.
J- How have you done that?
W- A colleague recommended an attorney who could write a demand letter for me pro-bono. THat was great, because lawyers can be insanely expensive. I think another thing writers can do is to join a union, for some form of representation. Or if many writers who have worked with one client have faced the same thing, that union usually has legal representation who can help demand this money.
J- Yeah, I think a union is a really interesting option here. There’s the IWW Freelance Journalists Union (IWWFJU)-- they’re the ones who filed the letter and got Outside to pay overdue payments. There’s also the Freelancers Union, which is open to lots of different creatives. The National Writers Union is another good one. Basically, you pay dues that are priced based on your income and you get access to various levels of legal representation and other resources. The NWU has legal resources (they can help you write letters or organize group grievances, or even go to court). The Freelancers Union doesn’t have direct legal representation, but they do a lot of events in New York and you can often speak to a lawyer during those events.
W- If you’re chasing a payment that’s just not coming in, it’s worth seeing if other people are having the same problem. And if they are, consider getting union help. Having representation is really helpful, versus just trying to deal on your own, and it’s worth the price of the dues. Plus unions often have lots of other good resources, too.
J- Alright, I think the big takeaway here is: You’re not alone if you’re struggling to get paid on time. It’s a rough part of this kind of work, and it should be better. It’s not your fault. It sucks.
W- Agreed. Also, you can protect yourself by reading your contract, adding a late fee into the contract, and also negotiating payment upon acceptance rather than publication. And if the timeline is too long for payment, see if you can negotiate for a higher rate.
J- Also, see if you can find a way to limit the emotional labor and unpaid time of invoice chasing, whether that’s using a platform like Quickbooks or hiring an assistant, if you’re able. Be kind to yourself and remember that chasing money is emotionally exhausting.
W- And if worst comes to worst, seek out legal representation. Get someone professional to help you, or to at least send a letter on your behalf. Join a union.
J- Also, I think it’s worth saying, asking to get paid on time should not lose you a gig, but it might. Pressing a client for payment can break down a relationship. But it’s worth asking if you want to be in that relationship in the first place. If that work isn’t helping you pay your bills, or it’s dragging you into hours of unpaid work, who else could you slot in instead?
W- There is no magic bullet. You can be out money for god knows how long. But, please, do your research before working with a new client on how they pay. If they pay late and you can’t deal with that uncertainty in your life, don’t work with them. It’s really not worth it.
J- Agreed. The best way to avoid late payment is to not work with clients who are chronic late-payers. Don’t perpetuate that late-payment engine. Don’t support clients who can’t pay their people on time! Again, it’s a matter of principles.
W- And that’s the last thing we should say: We all need to take a stand on this so it will become less of an issue industry wide, or an issue at all. I really, really really get it. It’s hard to ask for payment. I feel like this industry reeks of the sentiment that ‘money is awkward to talk about,’ which is crazy, because it’s a business. But standing up for yourself and being confident about your worth is everything. In this business. It’s. A. Business. Say it out loud to yourself like 20 times.
J- You’re running a business!
On that note, we’re going to head out for the week to run... our businesses and chase invoices. But please let us know if you have questions about chasing late payments! Drop us a note, tell us your stories, tweet us or Instagram DM us. We want to know how you’re dealing with late payments. We want to hear about what’s hard, and what’s been successful. And we’d love to hear any sneaky solutions you have to getting paid on time, too. Leave us a voice memo. Say hi!
W- See you on the internet, Jenni!
J- Bye Wudan!
