Why We People Please

SEASON 4, EPISODE 9:

This week on the show, we’re talking about yet another issue we may all run into: being people pleasers. In some ways, people-pleasing feels inherent to being a freelancer. After all, we get hired by our clients, and then we help clients with their projects. Or even if we’re pitching journalism stories, we’re still creating a story for someone else. We’re in the business of keeping our clients happy by creating good products. But being a people-pleaser can also harm our businesses. It can make us afraid of pushing back, negotiating, or appearing difficult – but that means we don’t get what we need. After all, it’s likely many others are saying yes to whatever their clients need. So if we don’t, we wonder: won’t I get discarded? In this episode, Jenni and Wudan dive deep into why we tend to people-please as freelancers, the harm it can cause our freelance businesses, and ways to unlearn this habit.

Full Transcript Below:

Wudan Yan- Hello, and welcome to The Writers' Co-Op.

Jenni Gritters- We are your co-hosts. I'm Jenni Gritters.

Wudan Yan- And I'm Wudan Yan

Jenni Gritters- Hey Wudan, how's it going?

Wudan Yan- It's going. I'm right back into the swing of things. Like my break was amazing. And of course I have returned to a mountain of work. I'm not complaining. Obviously, going from not working to working a lot is a big shift. But I'm also looking forward to figuring out when I take my first big break this year. What about you, Jenny?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, so I've been chronicling this a little bit on social media on Instagram and Twitter. So maybe people who are listening know that I'm doing this but as you know, Wudan, I'm a sick pregnant person, and I throw up a lot. I'm really nauseated at week 20. So I scaled my work back in October when I started to get sick. But the toll of doing as much as I'm doing, like I'm finishing my coaching certification, we both run two businesses, caring for a toddler. I think last week, it really hit me. My body, like physically, hasn't been doing great. Often I will step away from work and find that I'm like shaking between calls. So obviously not a great thing. And on doctor's orders, I have to scale back on work a little bit. So this past week, I really scaled back on one on one coaching, which is wild, because I spent the whole fall building this up. And now I'm letting go of a lot of the clients, I refunded a lot of the clients that I brought in this fall. So it's really bittersweet. And I think this goes back to our last episode about caretaking. Like you never really know when your health is going to take a turn. And so I'm definitely having to make some big adjustments to accommodate for these things that are sort of out of my control, which has not happened to this extent in my business so far. I let go of a lot of people who I loved working with, long term clients, and I refunded $5,000 of revenue. And you know, it's good, my schedule is a bit lighter now, like I went to lunch today and sat outside in the sun. And it was like really lovely. But I'm still pretty busy. Despite all of that with all the rest of the stuff that we have going on. I think it's like relief and grief, both all wrapped up into one.

Wudan Yan- That's a lot. I mean, it's hard to do what you just did. It's brave. And like we've said before, there, lots of changing seasons. And the best option for us is to adapt mostly.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, thank you for saying that. I think what I've been realizing too is like this is one of the good parts about freelancing is that we can adapt. But it doesn't mean it's easy to do when you're forced to change things abruptly. So let's dive into it Wudan. We are fast approaching the end of this official season, the fourth season of TWC. This always seems to happen really quickly, even though I know we're like recording for hours and doing a lot of work. But Season Four has been loosely fit around the theme of mindset monsters, things that small business owners face mentally, tactical ways to deal with them. Things you and I are really thinking about a lot right now like limiting beliefs over booking, etc.

Wudan Yan- Yes, it's all very fitting, given our brands.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, totally. I think someone was telling me they've seen how much we've both pivoted, because this season sounds so different from the first season. I think that's really true. We have both evolved into being more focused on mindset in our coaching, too, because it's sort of like looking at the root cause and then a lot of these other things are symptoms, right? Like, the struggle you're having with your client is a symptom finding work is a symptom, usually a root problem. So this is where we spend a lot of our energy in coaching sessions, boundaries we could talk about till the end of time, perfectionism, all of that. So I am excited to round out this season with just a few final episodes about mindset. What is on the agenda for today we're down for episode nine?

Wudan Yan- We are going to talk about being people pleasers. Where this tendency to keep other people happy ahead of yourself comes from why freelancers may particularly be prone to people pleasing how this impacts their business. And of course, things you can try to break out of being a people pleaser.

Jenni Gritters- I'm being attacked. This episode just feels so so freakin timely for me right now.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, I mean, to an extent I am as well.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, literally. I had a coach say to me last week before I let go of all these clients, Jenni, you are worried about inconveniencing other people, namely those coaching clients. But the result is that you're inconveniencing yourself in such a way that it is detrimental to your health. If that's not people pleasing. I don't know what it is. So let's do what we usually do. We'll start off by defining the term people pleasing because I think it means different things to different people. So I would say people pleasing in my mind is being overly concerned with taking care of other people and earning their approval. So basically what that coach told me, right? It's inconveniencing yourself 1000 times over. It's not getting what you need, just because you're so worried you're going to inconvenience someone else. And usually we try to please other people and it really comes at our own expense.

Wudan Yan- Yep. Yes. Yeah, it's me.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah. It's also me.

Wudan Yan- And it's probably you to whoever you are listening to the show.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, honestly, I think it's all of us at certain times in our lives, and especially when we're new at something. So Wudan, let's start with storytime. I can tell, you've done a lot of unlearning around this because especially since we started the podcast, I think of you as someone who is not a people pleaser, but I know that it's taken like a lot of work to get there. So why don't you tell me what happened last time you were really deep into a people pleasing situation.

Wudan Yan- This is a story that also has to do when COVID whut the world down. And my work was cancelled. Other editors began reaching out to me because I expertise in the biomedical sciences. And while I was out of work, so I was pretty eager to help out. And a few things contributed to me saying yes: One, I needed money. Two, I felt a professional obligation to use my expertise to help provide accurate information. In other words, just doing journalism in a pandemic. And three, I would say this one is my Achilles heel, I really liked the editors who I would have been working with on a personal level. And when I have that direct connection, I'm in a lot of trouble, because I'm really apt to say yes. It's not the same type of pleasing or all that comes with Oh, my God, I'm going to write for some huge publication. It's more of doing a favor for somebody who I really respect and trust.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, that sounds like you know, one definition of people pleasing. And I do think Wudan you're a really loyal person, like when I think of you, I think of someone who's really dedicated and loyal. So it makes sense to me that you're people pleasing flares up when you have that direct connection to somebody

Wudan Yan- 100%. And you'll probably have heard how that story went, I burned out today. And then I'd rethink my whole strategy. So Jenni, what about you? Tell me about the last time you've really embodied being a people pleaser?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, always, like yesterday and last week. But I think actually, the time I want to talk about is around when I started my freelance business. So I ended up with this client who needed help with website transition, I found them on Facebook, in one of those groups where everybody's posting jobs. And what I needed to do was edit content from their old website and move it on to the new website. And it was so monotonous, like, it's really boring. And then the scope of the project kept creeping. So suddenly, I was like ghostwriting for the CEO, when I'd been hired to do something totally different. It was really also just out of touch with what I wanted to be doing. But again, like, this was like month two of freelancing and the money was really good. So I did it for probably three or four months longer than I usually would have. I mean, now I don't even think I would have said yes to something like that. But when I look back on it, the issue with the particular gig was that the mission of the company, it was a nonprofit, was really good. So the people were just like, lovely, like they were so kind, they cared about what they were doing. I was panicked about not having enough work as a freelancer. So it felt like a guarantee of a good paycheck. But ultimately, I think what kept me there was the people and not wanting to let them down. And you know, the cost of that was dread and frustration, like I just didn't want to do the work that are internal politics were a mess. So when I left, I remember I like felt horrible about leaving, it took me like months. And I send them this big long note that was like, I'm so sorry, I have to step away. And they were just like, totally fine. Because there were a million other people who dealt with this work. It was a big learning experience. Like it really, you know, I was just one person. And they had many other people who could have filled the slot that I was filling.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, I mean, it can be really easy. Sometimes. It's just very simple to be the people pleaser, Jenny, where do you think it comes from for you?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, good question. Do you want the honest answer?

Wudan Yan- Yes. Always.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah. So for me people pleasing is very tied to my family history. In my family, there's a background of generational trauma. And so it's very important to my parents and their parents to keep everyone around you happy, because that keeps you safe, right? So if you can imagine what someone expects of you, and if you can manage that, and then you keep them being impressed at you, then you're technically not at risk, at least that's the sort of ethos that my family has. So in situations of abuse, obviously, which I haven't experienced, but family members have, when people are unhappy with you, the risk is horrible. It's really high. It's bodily harm. So I think part of it is that that like I just was raised in a family culture where like, you do want to keep people happy with you. And then I also think I was rewarded a lot for my performance as a kid, like being productive being high achieving, and so my worth comes from being liked. So it's like a little hit of endorphins. You know, whenever anybody is happy with what I'm doing, and risking people's opinions of me feels like it's sort of risking a piece of that identity. I will say that has gotten so much less true with a lot of therapy and developing confidence. I don't struggle with people pleasing so much in my writing business anymore as I used to, but I think it's been part of my psyche and my family since I was like, born. Yeah. So what about you, Wudan? I mean, where do you think your people pleasing origin is?

Wudan Yan- For me, and likely similar stories from folks of other immigrant families, it's this idea of respecting your elders, and Chinese culture, this is literally baked into our ethics and society, you respect your parents, ancestors, whatever people who are older than you. It can literally look like bowing in deference to other people. But what was never taught to me from an early age was that you could set your own boundaries and be respectful.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, and I so agree that this is a huge distinction. Boundaries can be helpful, not rude or alienating. And for me, too, that's something that feels really tied to people pleasing. And it's something that has taken a lot of work still happening now to learn.

Wudan Yan- Definitely. So that's the context in which I grew up in. And I should also say, and it's relevant to why I've been a people pleaser, is that I've skipped a grade super early on the first grade, which made me constantly be in a situation where I was surrounded by people older than me. And then there was also this idea that they knew better than me because they were older, and thus, I should respect them. I've carried a lot of this with me.

Jenni Gritters- I actually didn't know that you skipped a grade. Like, it's rare that we learn something new about each other's background. But that makes a ton of sense to me, in terms of the way you approach all of this.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, they let me skip, because I learned how to read.

Jenni Gritters- I love it.

Wudan Yan- But all of this is very real. And it relates to freelancing too in just so many ways.

Jenni Gritters- I think this all shows up in our businesses, this desire to keep other people happy at the expense of ourselves. Of course, it shows up in the rest of our lives, too. But however we are, that's how we are in our businesses in our lives. So for some of us, it's going to be driven by safety. For some of it, it's cultural, for some of us, it's loyalty. For some of us, it's identity. If you people please, in any part of your life, I just think it shows up really loudly in your business, in the form of burnout. And also just like, then you're in a business where you're doing something you don't really want to be doing. Like you don't actually want to be running the business that you have. Because you haven't set boundaries, and you're not getting what you need. I often see people come with people pleasing issues most often and that dynamic between contractor and client. So it's you as the person you're working with, and you see the person you're working with as holding power over you the Freelancer because they have the money, money impacts our livelihood. And so we kind of like a bend at the whims of that client, because we're nervous about what would happen if we pushed back like, we feel like it's risky to assert ourselves for sure. So Wudan, you had a pretty big thing, power dynamic struggle a few years back that you talked about pretty publicly, when you just said it to this idea that clients have all the power. Tell me a little bit about that.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, so this happened when people were so late to paying me, so I dinged them with late fees. And then I also got a lawyer to help me write a demand letter. So that was, I would say three years have passed since then. And I think I hope that the whole conversation around late fees have helped raise awareness to other freelancers that like, yeah, you can do that too.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah. And you ended up not working with some of these clients again, right? So I think that's the biggest worry that I see freelancers dealing with is, I need to bend to this client's wishes, because then we might never work together again.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, I mean, that's absolutely a very real thing. I also didn't want to work with those clients again.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, I remember you saying like it just like after an experience like that, why would she want to work with them? So I would love to hear how you dealt with that? Because I think that's the key distinction here, right? Like you're choosing yourself over the client in that situation.

Wudan Yan- Exactly. So working with a client is very much so a two way street, like our relationship or friendship, it's as much about them making a decision to work with me, as it is about me to have the power to say no as well.

Jenni Gritters- You know, this is where we talk about client relationships, like dating, right? So how else do you see this dynamic showing up in a business?

Wudan Yan- I often hear about the fear that if freelancers push back on anything, whether it's negotiating a fee or a contract that we will be perceived as difficult.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah totally. It's like asking for what I need makes me more difficult, which, yes, maybe someone's gonna think that you're being difficult, but also, it might be fine. They might not think that and also, who cares? Like part of this is making sure you get what you need. So I think another big one that I see is like, I guess I'll call it over yessing. saying yes to everything that comes in because you're trying to keep people happy. And then you end up working on work that's just really not what you want to be doing, like me with that client I just described about the website. conversion. That wasn't why I started being a freelancer. I think when people come in with that sort of over-yessing habit, there's a lot of unhappiness going on.

Wudan Yan- Definitely. And another outcome to people pleasing in our businesses is responding to emails, Slack messages, work calls outside of normal work hours, because that's when a client is asking you to answer, but you also run your own business, have your own rules, and they do not own you. Overall, I would say it's a zero sum game to be a people pleaser when it comes to freelancing, like, to an extent people pleasing can be okay, because we get some validation out of it. And let's face it, we get so little feedback as freelancers that that validation can really boost our confidence. But beyond that, one can argue that it gets a little bit dangerous.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, totally. I would draw that distinction between like feedback and just like approval, right? Like getting feedback from clients is awesome. It really helps you get what you need. So you know what you're doing. But driving for someone's approval all the time is where people can get stuck. So how have you gotten yourself out of this mindset, Wudan?

Wudan Yan- By adopting a different one. I began thinking about the person I needed to please being myself. And sometimes it's hard to separate those two things. So I think about pleasing a version of myself, like six months, six years down the road, what does that version of Wudan need? And one other thing I've done, also mindset work, is that rather, of thinking of things in a really dichotomous way of being like a yes person or negative Nancy, it's a yes-and or "not this time, but..." If you remember, we talked about that decision matrix a few episodes back, we'll link to that in the show notes for our subscribers, where I basically discovered that there were very few opportunities were I was saying yes to them without restriction. It was always like, Sure, I can do this. If you pay me x, and I have this amount of time. And we negotiate this clause in the contract. It was super, super, super provisional, way less black and white than just being like a Yes Man or No Man. So that's me, what has helped you?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, like hearing you talk about the sort of like both-and mentality. Like adding conditions so that you both get what you need. So for me, like I said, I've actually become very good at eliminating people pleasing in my business when it comes to writing clients. But interestingly, I think maybe because coaching is newer to me, it's been much harder with coaching clients. So I would say my mindset shift has been this idea of mutuality, which I talked about a lot with my clients, I think it's similar to what you're saying, Wudan, it's not just like, I choose me, or you get to win. It's like, how can we both win? It's a win-win situation. So most people, I see them ending up in a situation where the client wins, like a lot of the people who I'm coaching, and then the person I'm coaching is just surviving, but like the skin of their teeth, right? Like, the client is getting so much work from them and paying them $2,000 a month, but they're working almost full time for this client. So the person I'm coaching is really suffering, the client is winning there. That's not what I would call a win-win. What I'm talking about is a true win-win. You get what you need and the client gets what they need. In the case of this past week, this is what I was thinking about, which is, okay, my clients are going to win if they get coaching from me, but I'm losing. And so in order for me to win, I need to walk away. So they can win by working with someone else who actually has the bandwidth to help them. And so they can see me kind of lead by example, by taking care of myself and choosing a win-win. Sometimes in writing relationships, this is like, I need to ask for more money for this to be a win for me, or I need a longer deadline, or, you know, a few weeks back, I had to turn down an editing position that I had been in the mix for because it wasn't going to serve me. Basically I'm thinking about, like, how can I get what I need and do my best work, not at the expense of others, but actually, so they can get what they need as well.

Wudan Yan- We're definitely on the same wavelength here. And what this conversation really is about is just thinking about your own needs and what it takes to please you as a business, sure, but also as a human.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, exactly. And I think I've observed through the past few years of coaching and running this podcast that a lot of us, most especially women and minority groups are very poor at knowing what we need, I think we have not often been taught that that is something that even should be part of the picture. So for example, I will ask somebody in a coaching session "what do you think you need in order to be healthy and happy and your business?" and they just are silent. They're like "so how do I figure that out?" And I know that like when I walk into a room, because of my family situation, I'm very hyper aware of what everyone else's needs are. I'm like, oh, that person over there is upset and this person seems really stressed. And you know, this guy is really high energy. Like I noticed everybody else in the room, but I don't typically notice what I need until it's too late. But then I feel burned out or pissed when I'm not getting the thing I need. So a lot of the work for me is like trying to figure it out up front, instead of in the moment when I'm already deprived.

Wudan Yan - Yay awareness.

Jenni Gritters- Yes.

Wudan Yan- So one thing I like to ask my coaching clients is, if you're asked to put all of your needs in a box, what's in the box? I feel like there's something metaphorical about this too, since around that box is a literal boundary. And as you match up what approaches your box, does it fit inside your box? Or is it outside of the box? Take what fits, leave what doesn't.

Jenni Gritters- I love this. I actually used it yesterday, when I was being coached by someone, I was like, "Oh, I think I need to figure out what's in the box." So I would add, like I just said, for me, it requires very conscious work upfront to figure out that box. I have to like, sit down and check in and like, make some lists and look at situations where I felt terrible. And where my clients weren't serving me or where I was burned out and be like, "Why did that not work?" It takes a lot of past excavation. What's interesting is I've started to do this with my family, too. So I asked everybody to think about what they needed before a family vacation. And my parents were like, "so how do you figure that out?" and they had to then go take a bunch of time to figure out what their needs might be before we got there, instead of it being too late. Again, this is hard for everybody. But I think doing that work is really helpful. And I've done a lot of it in my business. And by the way, it also like changes when you are in situations like I am where suddenly you're sick. But you're making a list of boundaries, which are your needs, based on some of this excavation work. So at least I know sort of like the process to do. But again, this is like a hard skill. I think it's a skill that feels kind of fluffy, too, but it really impacts your business.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, I mean, how frequently to other people ask us like what we need, just generally as humans going through life? So if you want to think about what's in your box, your ever changing box, we will actually include this as a worksheet for our All Access and up Patreon subscribers for this episode, to help you think about your work and human boundaries.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, a little bit. So Wudan, can you say more about how boundaries can be kind or not terrible for other people?

Wudan Yan- I think of it as a signal to other people of what you need. So kind of like raising your hand in a classroom, or if you're trying to switch lanes on a jam packed highway without putting your blinker on, probably going to cause an accident. So it helps other people meet you halfway or ease up so you can go.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, agreed I had this realization a while ago. And I think I've probably mentioned it before in the podcast, that boundaries actually allow people to get closer to you instead of further away, because instead of like forcing everybody around you to guess what you need they just already know what you need. And so they can actually help you. My therapist often uses the metaphor of putting all the cards on the table. So like when you think about sharing your needs, I'm gonna put my hand down and then okay Wudan, you put your hand down. And then I might say like, Okay, I can't help with that one. But like, in your like, I definitely can help with that one, right? So we're sort of shuffling the cards around figuring out what game we're gonna play, but all the cards are on the table. So putting out your needs into the world doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna be met by every single person. But it does mean that there's clarity and transparency, which makes a huge difference.

Wudan Yan- I would agree. It's a game changer.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, you've heard me talking about doing this with my in laws, Wudan. It has really changed things. Instead of guessing what they need all week, during a visit. And then I'm trying not to make everybody mad. I just say before the trip, like I literally text everyone, and I'm like, here's what I think the week will look like. And here's what I need. Oh, my god, it's been so nice. Everyone is much calmer, because we're all getting our needs met. And there's not a lot of sort of like gymnastics around that. Sometimes I will even ask people, which I think is interesting. Sometimes I'll even ask a client this. I'll say I need to do X to take care of myself. Is that an inconvenience? Because my brain will automatically tell me that I'm inconveniencing that person. But the reality is probably their like, that's fine. I don't even care. Is it an inconvenience for me to take three more days on this? No, it's not a story that has any news tag, right? So then I can actually take the time I need without feeling guilty. So I would say that's a nice trick too. How can you take your brain off the hook, basically.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, I had another client use the phrase, "is that acceptable?" to me the other day. And I was like, Ooh, that like also evokes a very similar response to is this going to be an inconvenience? What's interesting to me too, is that doing this in our work environments, setting boundaries with our clients, and even considering our own needs for a second, then also trickles into our own personal lives, which is, I would say, the hardest place to implement boundaries. So I consider this all good practice.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, agreed. I sometimes make my coaching clients— so I pair them up. When I'm doing group coaching, I pair people up for group accountability. They'll have an accountability partner. And sometimes I'll make them say out loud in the group what kind of accountability they need. So like, someone will be like, Well, I think I just need like one check in per month. They're like, but that's probably too much. And then their partner is like, actually, I thought we were going to check in every day. So it's just like the expectations that are being put out there, you're assuming the other person is not going to be okay with what you have to say. And then it turns out, they were expecting that they were going to text you every day instead of once a month. So I think a lot of this is just like you need to say what you need. And you might be surprised by what the other person can do to accommodate it, and how it might help them too. So like, Oh, my God, what a concept, right? You're going to get what you need, and you're not going to burn out, you're going to make progress towards your goals, because you're like, in this case, you're getting the accountability you need. So I think this brings us to the last point, which is how to unlearn being a people pleaser, which I do think is a life's work.

Wudan Yan- Yeah, I would say this part is tricky. So adulthood, for me so far, has all been about unlearning the ways that I've previously been socialized. So with people pleasing, especially, I think some people see it as a personality trait. And I think if we think of it that way, we are way less apt to change. But I would argue that pleasing someone else is, when you think about that in a very literal term, that's actually an action or behavior—something that can be malleable.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, there's a choice there. If it's an action, and you can choose if you're doing it or not. And I will also say this: I think for a lot of us people pleasing did serve us at one point. It kept us safe. It kept us anchored and made us feel good. And so it may just be that you're at a given point in your life where people pleasing no longer serves you in certain contexts. And now you want to make a change. There is wiggle room for that.

Wudan Yan- Yes. And that's the question. I asked a lot of the time to coaching clients who are like "I'm a people pleaser, but I don't want to be, but it's also so hard because trying something new is scary." And the question is, how does it serve you know? Maybe small bits of being a people pleaser actually wins you favors but others don't. So what can you discard? And what do you want to keep?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, totally. Because I think this isn't an all or nothing prospects. Like you said, there's some good things about getting feedback from people. But if there's a strong cost to you, like what was happening with me with coaching, it's gotta go. So this is about rewriting your truth, I think in your needs moment to moment. I like to ask that question about costs, too, like, what is this costing you right now? And that's actually what made me make this big choice in my business recently. The cost was like, my physical health, you know? I was ill, and I was feeling terrible. The answers that I get are really cool. And then I want to know why it's worth it to try that new thing. People will say, well, it's worth it, because then I would feel free. Well, it's worth it because then I would have financial stability, or a body that doesn't hurt or I would get to go offline at 5pm. And hanging out with my family or go climbing. These things matter a lot. And when you figure out what you're gonna get from changing that mindset, that's the good stuff. That's what makes you actually do it.

Wudan Yan- Yeah. And I will say the switch from pleasing other people to pleasing yourself doesn't have to be drastic. It's not throwing caution to the wind and screaming obscenities like me. It can be subtle.

Jenni Gritters- Like how we almost called this podcast FU pay me. But we just did it for an episode. But no, I think you're right, I think it has to be subtle, because you have to teach your brain slowly that it's safe to get what you need.

Wudan Yan- And small doesn't mean that it won't change anything. Subtle can still be noticeable, and it can still cause a shift. So Jenni, do you have any language that you'd like to use when you need to remind your clients of your boundaries?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, I'll give you a few examples. So for writing clients, I often say on email before we hop on the phone, I like to share a few of my usual asks. So before we even like are talking about the project. And then I'll say these are my rates, this is my availability, I would love to hear what you need. Again, this is sort of like a cards on the table thing right? Like let's put all the cards on the table. So I send that email before we usually have our initial chat. And then with coaching clients I have a waitlist. My waitlist is you know especially long now that I am not seeing as many people and so a lot of times I'm putting people on the waitlist but I'm also being very transparent about what's going on I'm sharing my rates I'm telling them when I have availability or predicted availability. At the moment I'm telling them "you should go see someone else" and so I do also ask my coaching clients to sign a contract that agrees to not canceling. Showing up with openness. All that. So I think all of that is definitely opposite of people pleasing for me. It's like making sure I get what I need.

Wudan Yan- Definitely love the transparency. I have also recently made my coaching contract public.

Jenni Gritters- Ooh I love that. Yeah. So I think like all of this work, and all of these conversations was based on me doing that thing where I sat down and I assessed my needs upfront. And then I'm constantly doing that every few months just to double check or if something is really, like I'm feeling really angry about a part of my business, that's a sign that I need to properly evaluate: what other boundary could I put in place to get what I need? I also want to say it was way easier to keep my boundaries held with writing clients. And I think that's because I've been doing it for longer. So I have the confidence of like, Oh, I'm gonna set this boundary, and it's going to be okay. Like, I have four years almost a feedback about that. So if you're listening to this, and you're like, Oh, my God, I could never set those boundaries. Know that I would have said that four years ago, I would have been like, there's no way. And now I'm setting boundaries like a pro. And it's because little by little I taught my brain that it was safe. And also like, hashtag shout out to therapy. Because if you have trauma in your background, like I do, especially familial trauma, I do think therapy is needed to be able to take these risks and feel not too panicky. So Wudan, tell me your favorite ways to assert boundaries.

Wudan Yan- It's endless. So a few things I like to say sound like, if you're able to wait around x date for a timeline, I can turn that around. Or I'll say, please pass this on to someone else, but let's check back in with each other by the end of whatever month to see if there are other projects, that would be a good fit. I say, if you'd like it earlier, would you be open to a rush fee? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, I love all those. Yeah, I mean, like, it's all in the same vein, and you can ask for these things, because you defined your needs upfront, you know, you need a rush fee, in order to not feel absolutely resentful for doing something really quick. So we are going to include a lot of this language as a resource, a tip sheet for our All Access plus/up members, because we know it's a big emotional lift to do this work as well. And we're hoping it'll be a little bit easier if you don't have to come up with all the verbiage yourself.

Wudan Yan- And ultimately, the important part is knowing that serving your needs first really, really doesn't mean that your client is going to blow you off. I mean, I'd say unless one party is outwardly rude to the other, this won't happen. I think professionalism still goes a really long way in this industry.

Jenni Gritters- Totally. It's like you said, it's not just screaming obscenities. You're still being a nice person. And I found actually that setting boundaries with my clients usually means we have a tighter relationship because there's mutual respect. But we also know we can't convince you that this is true. This is really one of those things that you're going to have to prove to yourself over time by doing those small, subtle things and showing up for yourself.

Wudan Yan- A few episodes back, in the overbooking one, I believe I talked about creating a chart that helps you reflect on what actually happened. So if you got a blank piece of notebook paper next to you right now create this T-chart. So one side of that T is a story of you setting a boundary with the client. The next side is how they responded or what happened next. So log this for, I don't know, an entire quarter. Let's just use that as a random benchmark. Come back to it and see what happens. Like how do clients respond? What trends do you see?

Jenni Gritters- Yeah, I think that's a great idea. We've both done that. It's a good experiment. And I think the chances are, you're gonna find that putting your needs before the needs of your client or equal to the needs of your client isn't the end of the world or your business. In fact, it's like the start of something brand freakin new.

Wudan Yan- Amen.

Jenni Gritters- So on that note, we're setting our boundaries because time is up and we're out. It's been about 35 minutes, but onward with this life's work of choosing yourself.

Wudan Yan- If you have a story about how you stopped being a people pleaser, we would love to hear that actually. All Access members are already continuing that conversation on our Slack, which you can join us via our Patreon. That's patreon.com/twcpod

Jenni Gritters- I'll talk to you next time, Wudan.

Wudan Yan- Bye, Jenni.

Season Four of The Writers Co-Op is made possible by you, our listeners. The Writers' Co-Op is co hosted and written by me Wudan Yan and Jenni Gritters. Our producer is Jen Monnier and our editor is Susan Valot.